We all heard it....we all saw it.....all through the campaign. 787 billion dollars to save and create 3.5 million jobs. However, only 150,000 jobs have been created this year, as a result of the stumulus money who's to say. But, 2 million jobs have been lost this year?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/05/09/rising-unemployment-rate-undermines-obamas-goal-create-m-jobs/

Now unemployment is at 8.9% ? How long before our Dear Leader opens up the "Blame Bush" playbook for rehashed campaign rhetoric to take the heat off? After all, hasn't O.B.ama spent the first 100+ days simply wiping America's collective A - -, of the crap Bush created?

yeah.... holding my breath here.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart

oh, and for those of you counting, that leaves Dear Leader less than 7 months to make good on this one.

.


“Poor Al Gore. Global warming completely debunked via the very Internet you invented. Oh, oh, the irony!” -Jon Stewart

LMAO. "Save or create"...aka, somthing that can never be proven. The unemployment rate can continue to grow, and they can still claim that they saved 3.5 million jobs, because it "would have been that much worse" without the ARRA.

Why do you continue to bitch about Obama being so ungodly horrible and killing the economy?. Im sure if McCain wouldve gotten elected and the economy went into the crapper, which it still wouldve, you wouldve been right behind him. This isnt a matter of Obama screwing anything up. Its just you trying to twist a poor economy to your advantage to make Republicans look so much better.

But I still do think we should ride it out without the stimulus package etc. I just dont think its any one mans fault. Its the collective stupidity of one nation.

TheSundownFire wrote:Why do you continue to bitch about Obama being so ungodly horrible and killing the economy?. Im sure if McCain wouldve gotten elected and the economy went into the crapper, which it still wouldve, you wouldve been right behind him. This isnt a matter of Obama screwing anything up. Its just you trying to twist a poor economy to your advantage to make Republicans look so much better.

False. Your last statement is way off. It is the very people in power taking advantage of this economy to advance their left-wing agenda. Everything they have been doing has been about expanding government power. Obama speaks about each thing like it's supposed to be good for the people, when in fact it's going to do nothing to help the economy, and in most cases, weaken it further. It's not about making Republicans look better, it's about the fact that this administration, coupled with the majority in congress (and leadership there with the same radical agenda), is trying to change this country into the very thing it was founded in opposition to.

If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus. That's not to say that I would have agreed with everything he did. I still don't agree with him on immigration, for example. However, I'll play hypothetical with you for a moment. If McCain were to do the exact same things as Obama has done so far, I would be just as pissed about it, and would post similar arguments against it. I argue on substance and principle. What I try to get people to understand is that Obama's policies are proven to fail, and that he also says one thing while doing the polar opposite in many cases, but everyone seems to take him at his word. This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it.

And yes, he is screwing things up. Tax and spend in a recession, especially at the rate he is doing so, is extremely damaging.

TheSundownFire wrote:But I still do think we should ride it out without the stimulus package etc. I just dont think its any one mans fault. Its the collective stupidity of one nation.

If they passed the stimulus plan and gave that time to work, I might be willing to do so as well. However, as I said in another thread, they want to keep spending more and more. It needs to be stopped. They keep claiming that we need to act now. If the ARRA was so important, why aren't they sitting back and letting it do what they claim it's going to do? Answer: because it wasn't designed to do anything for the economy.

Quiklilcav wrote:

TheSundownFire wrote:Why do you continue to bitch about Obama being so ungodly horrible and killing the economy?. Im sure if McCain wouldve gotten elected and the economy went into the crapper, which it still wouldve, you wouldve been right behind him. This isnt a matter of Obama screwing anything up. Its just you trying to twist a poor economy to your advantage to make Republicans look so much better.

False. Your last statement is way off. It is the very people in power taking advantage of this economy to advance their left-wing agenda. Everything they have been doing has been about expanding government power. Obama speaks about each thing like it's supposed to be good for the people, when in fact it's going to do nothing to help the economy, and in most cases, weaken it further. It's not about making Republicans look better, it's about the fact that this administration, coupled with the majority in congress (and leadership there with the same radical agenda), is trying to change this country into the very thing it was founded in opposition to.

If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus. That's not to say that I would have agreed with everything he did. I still don't agree with him on immigration, for example. However, I'll play hypothetical with you for a moment. If McCain were to do the exact same things as Obama has done so far, I would be just as pissed about it, and would post similar arguments against it. I argue on substance and principle. What I try to get people to understand is that Obama's policies are proven to fail, and that he also says one thing while doing the polar opposite in many cases, but everyone seems to take him at his word. This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it.

And yes, he is screwing things up. Tax and spend in a recession, especially at the rate he is doing so, is extremely damaging.

TheSundownFire wrote:But I still do think we should ride it out without the stimulus package etc. I just dont think its any one mans fault. Its the collective stupidity of one nation.

If they passed the stimulus plan and gave that time to work, I might be willing to do so as well. However, as I said in another thread, they want to keep spending more and more. It needs to be stopped. They keep claiming that we need to act now. If the ARRA was so important, why aren't they sitting back and letting it do what they claim it's going to do? Answer: because it wasn't designed to do anything for the economy.

I love how you take his OPINION and say "false" like it makes you right or something and then post your own OPINION and try to play it off as fact. It's the same thing every thread, you never have any facts to back up any of your statements. Why you ask, because they are all OPINIONS that you try to make look like facts.

Every political party takes advantage of the current situation at the time they are in office. Obama is taking advantage of the economy and you make it sound like this is the first time in history that this has happened. What about the Bush administration taking advantage of 911 and passing pro government power laws? is it not the same thing is it, you know because it was the Republican party doing it. Let me guess what Obama is doing is far worse because no one knows what is "really going on" and he is single handedly destroying our country, turning us into an extreme muslim socialist state of government power.

I also like the "If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus." and you can prove this how? Here again you are trying to make your OPINIONS sound like facts. I for one would love you to prove this point.

Here is another good one "This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it." because no knows what is "really going on" but you. You have still never told me this awesome source of vital information that no else can seem to get, though I have asked for you to fill me in on several occasions. Do you have a secret NSA receiver in your tin foil hat? Proof of his radical agenda? How about proof that Obama's policies are proven to fail? That should be easy, you said they are proven right?

Last but not least "And yes, he is screwing things up. Tax and spend in a recession, especially at the rate he is doing so, is extremely damaging" once again your OPINION. Again I ask you to provide indisputable facts to back this statement up.

KevinP (Stabby McShankyou) wrote:
and I'm NOT a pedo. everyone knows i've got a wheelchair fetish.

Keynesian economics are a mofo arent they. No one man is going to get the country out of the recession. Even FDR didnt get anywhere nor did Hoover. So basically were at the point of hanging out and letting it happen because no one has a fool proof way to fix anything. Its all theoretical.

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:

Quiklilcav wrote:

TheSundownFire wrote:Why do you continue to bitch about Obama being so ungodly horrible and killing the economy?. Im sure if McCain wouldve gotten elected and the economy went into the crapper, which it still wouldve, you wouldve been right behind him. This isnt a matter of Obama screwing anything up. Its just you trying to twist a poor economy to your advantage to make Republicans look so much better.

False. Your last statement is way off. It is the very people in power taking advantage of this economy to advance their left-wing agenda. Everything they have been doing has been about expanding government power. Obama speaks about each thing like it's supposed to be good for the people, when in fact it's going to do nothing to help the economy, and in most cases, weaken it further. It's not about making Republicans look better, it's about the fact that this administration, coupled with the majority in congress (and leadership there with the same radical agenda), is trying to change this country into the very thing it was founded in opposition to.

If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus. That's not to say that I would have agreed with everything he did. I still don't agree with him on immigration, for example. However, I'll play hypothetical with you for a moment. If McCain were to do the exact same things as Obama has done so far, I would be just as pissed about it, and would post similar arguments against it. I argue on substance and principle. What I try to get people to understand is that Obama's policies are proven to fail, and that he also says one thing while doing the polar opposite in many cases, but everyone seems to take him at his word. This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it.

And yes, he is screwing things up. Tax and spend in a recession, especially at the rate he is doing so, is extremely damaging.

TheSundownFire wrote:But I still do think we should ride it out without the stimulus package etc. I just dont think its any one mans fault. Its the collective stupidity of one nation.

If they passed the stimulus plan and gave that time to work, I might be willing to do so as well. However, as I said in another thread, they want to keep spending more and more. It needs to be stopped. They keep claiming that we need to act now. If the ARRA was so important, why aren't they sitting back and letting it do what they claim it's going to do? Answer: because it wasn't designed to do anything for the economy.

I love how you take his OPINION and say "false" like it makes you right or something and then post your own OPINION and try to play it off as fact. It's the same thing every thread, you never have any facts to back up any of your statements. Why you ask, because they are all OPINIONS that you try to make look like facts.

Every political party takes advantage of the current situation at the time they are in office. Obama is taking advantage of the economy and you make it sound like this is the first time in history that this has happened. What about the Bush administration taking advantage of 911 and passing pro government power laws? is it not the same thing is it, you know because it was the Republican party doing it. Let me guess what Obama is doing is far worse because no one knows what is "really going on" and he is single handedly destroying our country, turning us into an extreme muslim socialist state of government power.

I also like the "If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus." and you can prove this how? Here again you are trying to make your OPINIONS sound like facts. I for one would love you to prove this point.

Here is another good one "This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it." because no knows what is "really going on" but you. You have still never told me this awesome source of vital information that no else can seem to get, though I have asked for you to fill me in on several occasions. Do you have a secret NSA receiver in your tin foil hat? Proof of his radical agenda? How about proof that Obama's policies are proven to fail? That should be easy, you said they are proven right?

Last but not least "And yes, he is screwing things up. Tax and spend in a recession, especially at the rate he is doing so, is extremely damaging" once again your OPINION. Again I ask you to provide indisputable facts to back this statement up.

FACT: If you're not taking his opinion as fact, that really means that you are just brainwashed by the UBER-EVIL media or some such. It is HE(and all those who agree with him) who really understands what is going on. You just don't get it!!

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:I love how you take his OPINION and say "false" like it makes you right or something and then post your own OPINION and try to play it off as fact.

Um, no. He made a statement regarding my motives. I am the only one who could know that. Now, maybe you'd like to call me a liar, but that would simply bring the level of thread down as others are so well known for doing. When you lose your substance, just start attacking to person you argue with, right?

Quote:

It's the same thing every thread, you never have any facts to back up any of your statements. Why you ask, because they are all OPINIONS that you try to make look like facts.

I've posted numerous stats from government data bases, including graphs created from such, that back up my points. Just because I don't post them in every single thread of people repeating the same fallacies does not mean I never back up my argument. Just because you refuse to accept facts as they stand does not mean they are disputable. What is humorous is the fact that the only facts posted in dispute of my arguments have been 2nd hand information, data which supports my argument (with a half-assed explanation of why the facts are wrong), and rhetorical statements quoted as fact.

Quote:

Every political party takes advantage of the current situation at the time they are in office. Obama is taking advantage of the economy and you make it sound like this is the first time in history that this has happened. What about the Bush administration taking advantage of 911 and passing pro government power laws? is it not the same thing is it, you know because it was the Republican party doing it. Let me guess what Obama is doing is far worse because no one knows what is "really going on" and he is single handedly destroying our country, turning us into an extreme muslim socialist state of government power.

It has nothing to do with which party was involved. There is a huge difference between passing laws to help secure our nation when there are definite forces out there with the intention of causing American citizens harm, and creating large amounts of bureaucracy, nationalization of industries, and socialist policies which will cause our economy long term damage (which such socializations have done every time they have been tried--want proof? Look at the programs that have been created over the past 60 years. I would love to hear a good argument supported by facts for how Social Security, Medicare, and the public education system have been well run by the government, and how private retirement plans, private insurance, and private schools have all failed in comparison.) History shows that, without fail, every time the government expands, the economy suffers, while every time taxes are lowered, and private citizens and companies are allowed to prosper, the economy overall grows exponentially.

Again, just because I don't post stats, charts, and graphs in every single thread to disprove the same tired liberal rhetoric, doesn't mean I don't support my arguments.

Quote:

I also like the "If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus." and you can prove this how? Here again you are trying to make your OPINIONS sound like facts. I for one would love you to prove this point.

Obviously, you are going to take the position that McCain would have proposed a huge spending bill if he were in power, but as a Senator, of course he would propose something much smaller. His stimulus package was only half the size of the one that got passed because he wasn't in power, right? While McCain has often leaned toward the left, he has never done so as far as Obama.

Quote:

Here is another good one "This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it." because no knows what is "really going on" but you. You have still never told me this awesome source of vital information that no else can seem to get, though I have asked for you to fill me in on several occasions. Do you have a secret NSA receiver in your tin foil hat? Proof of his radical agenda? How about proof that Obama's policies are proven to fail? That should be easy, you said they are proven right?

Go ahead, keep mis-quoting me. I have never said no one knows but me. What I have said, is that too many people don't see what's going on, and I have pointed out on a few occasions when someone specifically doesn't get it.

As for proof of his radical agenda. You can't be serious. Just look at what he actually does and/or proposes. It's all left wing extreme. It's socialist, in spite of him downplaying the wording. He continues to come up with reasons for keeping control of private sectors of the economy. He constantly bashes capitalism, and feeds into the class warfare with his claims of "the rich" and "Corporate America" not paying their fair share, or profiting at the expense of the poor and middle class. He is pushing socialized medicine. He is cutting funding for charter schools, which typically aren't unionised (obvious agenda there). He wants to force the issue of making Americans use "green energy", which will cost every person and company large amounts of money (the CBO has estimated almost $300 per month per household increased cost of living due to Cap and Trade legislation proposed). He has continued to talk about remaking America. Note the careful choice of words. He is not stupid. While on the surface it sounds like an uplifting positive statement about bringing America back to greatness, he has never used the words like renew or rebuild. I firmly believe this is a deliberate choice. His agenda is clearly (based on his proposals and his words) to make us into something we have not been before.

Proof his policies will fail for the country? Look at history. Again, the facts are all there: government expansion and tax increases have always increased unemployment, and decreased standard of living. Low taxes and individual liberties have resulted in lower unemployment and higher standard of living (across the board). I may gather together all of the stats I have posted before, as well as some additional info, but I have posted all of this before. One thread where you can find some of it is in Goodwrench's "Why vote Republican" thread. There is a clear example there of fact in support of my argument, and the attempt to explain those facts away as something they are not.

One final thing: why is it that neither of you have offered any substantive argument lately? Why is it thatt the only thing you can do is to simply attack me and imply with sarcasm that I make things up?

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:I love how you take his OPINION and say "false" like it makes you right or something and then post your own OPINION and try to play it off as fact.

Um, no. He made a statement regarding my motives. I am the only one who could know that. Now, maybe you'd like to call me a liar, but that would simply bring the level of thread down as others are so well known for doing. When you lose your substance, just start attacking to person you argue with, right?

Nope, just pointing out that you try to sell your opinion as fact, just like you do in every other thread and when someone call you out do you prove your point with facts, nope you tell them they don't know what is really going on and they are slaves to the MSM.

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:It's the same thing in every thread, you never have any facts to back up any of your statements. Why you ask, because they are all OPINIONS that you try to make look like facts.

I've posted numerous stats from government data bases, including graphs created from such, that back up my points. Just because I don't post them in every single thread of people repeating the same fallacies does not mean I never back up my argument. Just because you refuse to accept facts as they stand does not mean they are disputable. What is humorous is the fact that the only facts posted in dispute of my arguments have been 2nd hand information, data which supports my argument (with a half-assed explanation of why the facts are wrong), and rhetorical statements quoted as fact.

Keep telling yourself that.

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:Every political party takes advantage of the current situation at the time they are in office. Obama is taking advantage of the economy and you make it sound like this is the first time in history that this has happened. What about the Bush administration taking advantage of 911 and passing pro government power laws? is it not the same thing is it, you know because it was the Republican party doing it. Let me guess what Obama is doing is far worse because no one knows what is "really going on" and he is single handedly destroying our country, turning us into an extreme muslim socialist state of government power.

It has nothing to do with which party was involved. There is a huge difference between passing laws to help secure our nation when there are definite forces out there with the intention of causing American citizens harm, and creating large amounts of bureaucracy, nationalization of industries, and socialist policies which will cause our economy long term damage (which such socializations have done every time they have been tried--want proof? Look at the programs that have been created over the past 60 years. I would love to hear a good argument supported by facts for how Social Security, Medicare, and the public education system have been well run by the government, and how private retirement plans, private insurance, and private schools have all failed in comparison.) History shows that, without fail, every time the government expands, the economy suffers, while every time taxes are lowered, and private citizens and companies are allowed to prosper, the economy overall grows exponentially.

The "help secure our nation" bit is classic, I will never give up freedom in the name of security. So as long as the lie they use to justify the power grab plays in to your political ideals then it's ok?

The rest of this paragraph I pretty much agree with, the government does screw up pretty much everything they touch, but I also believe that social security and medicare are good programs in principal but the execution sucked.

Quiklilcav wrote:Again, just because I don't post stats, charts, and graphs in every single thread to disprove the same tired liberal rhetoric, doesn't mean I don't support my arguments.

So if you post facts to back up one of your statements that must make all of what you say true.

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:I also like the "If McCain was in power, we would have had a much smaller stimulus package, that was more about stimulus." and you can prove this how? Here again you are trying to make your OPINIONS sound like facts. I for one would love you to prove this point.

Obviously, you are going to take the position that McCain would have proposed a huge spending bill if he were in power, but as a Senator, of course he would propose something much smaller. His stimulus package was only half the size of the one that got passed because he wasn't in power, right? While McCain has often leaned toward the left, he has never done so as far as Obama.

I can't say that he would have made a huge spending bill just as you can't say he would have, again just pointing out how you like to state your opinion as fact.

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:Here is another good one "This is dangerous, because he has a radical agenda, and people as a whole still don't see it." because no knows what is "really going on" but you. You have still never told me this awesome source of vital information that no else can seem to get, though I have asked for you to fill me in on several occasions. Do you have a secret NSA receiver in your tin foil hat? Proof of his radical agenda? How about proof that Obama's policies are proven to fail? That should be easy, you said they are proven right?

Go ahead, keep mis-quoting me. I have never said no one knows but me. What I have said, is that too many people don't see what's going on, and I have pointed out on a few occasions when someone specifically doesn't get it.

When ever someone has an opinion that differs from your you bust out the "you don't know what is going on" line as to imply that you do know what is going on. Again trying to fabricate credibility for your opinions. You dismiss all other opinions that do not fall in line with yours and never try to see the other side of the fence you just say "fail" or "wrong" like it validates your point, closed mindedness is a bad thing.

Quiklilcav wrote:As for proof of his radical agenda. You can't be serious. Just look at what he actually does and/or proposes. It's all left wing extreme. It's socialist, in spite of him downplaying the wording. He continues to come up with reasons for keeping control of private sectors of the economy. He constantly bashes capitalism, and feeds into the class warfare with his claims of "the rich" and "Corporate America" not paying their fair share, or profiting at the expense of the poor and middle class. He is pushing socialized medicine. He is cutting funding for charter schools, which typically aren't unionised (obvious agenda there). He wants to force the issue of making Americans use "green energy", which will cost every person and company large amounts of money (the CBO has estimated almost $300 per month per household increased cost of living due to Cap and Trade legislation proposed). He has continued to talk about remaking America. Note the careful choice of words. He is not stupid. While on the surface it sounds like an uplifting positive statement about bringing America back to greatness, he has never used the words like renew or rebuild. I firmly believe this is a deliberate choice. His agenda is clearly (based on his proposals and his words) to make us into something we have not been before.

As long as it's right wing extreme its ok? Capitalism is bashed because in its distorted form of a little bit of regulation here and a little bit there it is not working. Our current economic situation speaks for itself. As far as corporate america not paying their fair share, thats pretty much spot on, they do not pay their fair share, that is why they are trying to close loop holes in the tax code that benefit companies that send jobs out of the country, which I agree with. We do need to explore green energy and turn it into viable industry, we need to develop new technologys to profit from. Do you expect americans to work in manufacturing jobs? Guess what they have all gone to countries where people will work for pennies a day, we better come up with something to employ the masses. We need to explore new ways for the working class to make good a living in this country, if that means the price of energy goes up for a few years until something breaks loose than so be it, I think we should take the chance.

Quiklilcav wrote:font=arial]Proof his policies will fail for the country? Look at history. Again, the facts are all there: government expansion and tax increases have always increased unemployment, and decreased standard of living. Low taxes and individual liberties have resulted in lower unemployment and higher standard of living (across the board). I may gather together all of the stats I have posted before, as well as some additional info, but I have posted all of this before. One thread where you can find some of it is in Goodwrench's "Why vote Republican" thread. There is a clear example there of fact in support of my argument, and the attempt to explain those facts away as something they are not.

One final thing: why is it that neither of you have offered any substantive argument lately? Why is it thatt the only thing you can do is to simply attack me and imply with sarcasm that I make things up?

I don't attack you, your the only one of the right wingers in here who can actually make a valid point, its not an attack as much as it is pointing out that there is a flip side to every coin that you conveniently disregard. If an opinion is not in line with yours you try to make it seem like it is wrong and that whoever has a different opinion is brainwashed, drinking the koolaide, or caught up in the slant of MSM. Dismissing ideas that may not fall in line with yours simply because they do not follow your political affiliation is silly. I don't attack you, I like to play devil's advocate with you. I don't call you names or say "fail" or "wrong." I just point out that there is another side to the story. Just like the thread where Gary posted a Fox video and said in not so may words, try to disprove this, well how bout you prove its fact before you want me to disprove it. You try to act like your opinion is set in stone fact and never take time to consider other opinions, that is arrogant and a very closed minded way to go through life.

KevinP (Stabby McShankyou) wrote:
and I'm NOT a pedo. everyone knows i've got a wheelchair fetish.

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:It's the same thing in every thread, you never have any facts to back up any of your statements. Why you ask, because they are all OPINIONS that you try to make look like facts.

I've posted numerous stats from government data bases, including graphs created from such, that back up my points. Just because I don't post them in every single thread of people repeating the same fallacies does not mean I never back up my argument. Just because you refuse to accept facts as they stand does not mean they are disputable. What is humorous is the fact that the only facts posted in dispute of my arguments have been 2nd hand information, data which supports my argument (with a half-assed explanation of why the facts are wrong), and rhetorical statements quoted as fact.

Keep telling yourself that.

You might want to read the bunch of pages in the middle of the "Why vote Republican" thread I mentioned, where Goodwrench and I were discussing tax and spend economics vs. trickle-down economics, and you will see plenty of data there, as well as links to sources. A couple of the other threads from the election season have stats I posted, with links to the source. When the same tired arguments keep getting posted, I don't always feel like going and finding my data again to repost, but the arguments need to be refuted with an articulate explaination so that more do not get sucked into the rhetoric repeated over and over again.

Quote:

Quiklilcav wrote:

Harrington (Fiber Faber) wrote:Every political party takes advantage of the current situation at the time they are in office. Obama is taking advantage of the economy and you make it sound like this is the first time in history that this has happened. What about the Bush administration taking advantage of 911 and passing pro government power laws? is it not the same thing is it, you know because it was the Republican party doing it. Let me guess what Obama is doing is far worse because no one knows what is "really going on" and he is single handedly destroying our country, turning us into an extreme muslim socialist state of government power.

It has nothing to do with which party was involved. There is a huge difference between passing laws to help secure our nation when there are definite forces out there with the intention of causing American citizens harm, and creating large amounts of bureaucracy, nationalization of industries, and socialist policies which will cause our economy long term damage (which such socializations have done every time they have been tried--want proof? Look at the programs that have been created over the past 60 years. I would love to hear a good argument supported by facts for how Social Security, Medicare, and the public education system have been well run by the government, and how private retirement plans, private insurance, and private schools have all failed in comparison.) History shows that, without fail, every time the government expands, the economy suffers, while every time taxes are lowered, and private citizens and companies are allowed to prosper, the economy overall grows exponentially.

The "help secure our nation" bit is classic, I will never give up freedom in the name of security. So as long as the lie they use to justify the power grab plays in to your political ideals then it's ok?

The rest of this paragraph I pretty much agree with, the government does screw up pretty much everything they touch, but I also believe that social security and medicare are good programs in principal but the execution sucked.

This is exactly part of my arguments all along. Tons of this stuff sounds good in theory, but every time the government runs something, they f&%k it up with beureaucracy and waste, so the last thing we need is to let them have more power. The way to fix this stuff is to let the free market take care of it. Obviously, there would have to be some people who recieve their benefits for Social Security since they have paid into it their whole life, but if people had the choice to opt out of it, and pick their own plan, I would be hard pressed to believe that anyone would opt in. The private retirement plans need to perform, or they lose their customers. When the government doesn't perform, they simply take the money from somewhere else, and f&%k something else up. I'm glad to see we agree on some things.

As for the disagreeing with securing our country, I'm not saying that we should be giving up freedoms in the name of protection in all cases, but when we have been attacked by people hiding in our own country, we need to release some of the constraints that our protectors have, in order to find those people. And in spite of the fact that the liberals were all bent out of shape and screaming how The Constitution was being shredded by Bush, the measures taken really weren't very extreme. The majority of The Patriot Act required more proof of citizenship for multiple things, which should have actually been taken a little further, if for no other reason that to out illegal aliens who were getting f&%king mortgages through the Fanny and Freddie "no documentation" loans, but that's another discussion all together. The bottom line is that most of what was heard was rhetoric, and fear mongering tactics from the left, to slam Bush. Proof? As soon as Obama took the oath, they stopped all chattering about the warrentless wire taps and detention without probable cause. If they really believed these were unconstitutional, they would have made it one of their priorities to repeal. But as soon as they had complete control over the Whitehouse and Congress, the tune changed.

Quote:

Quiklilcav wrote:Again, just because I don't post stats, charts, and graphs in every single thread to disprove the same tired liberal rhetoric, doesn't mean I don't support my arguments.

So if you post facts to back up one of your statements that must make all of what you say true.

Hardly what I've said at all. The thing is that a similar version of the same arguments keep coming up in new threads. Most of the stuff that I have posted in them I have also posted similar arguments elsewhere, and at some point with stats and sources to back it up. Again, it gets to be a little much for me to go digging stuff up every time I want to post. However, the argument can still be made.

Maybe I just need to save a file with all of the links and stats, so I can fire them off every time.

Quote:

Quiklilcav wrote:Proof his policies will fail for the country? Look at history. Again, the facts are all there: government expansion and tax increases have always increased unemployment, and decreased standard of living. Low taxes and individual liberties have resulted in lower unemployment and higher standard of living (across the board). I may gather together all of the stats I have posted before, as well as some additional info, but I have posted all of this before. One thread where you can find some of it is in Goodwrench's "Why vote Republican" thread. There is a clear example there of fact in support of my argument, and the attempt to explain those facts away as something they are not.

One final thing: why is it that neither of you have offered any substantive argument lately? Why is it thatt the only thing you can do is to simply attack me and imply with sarcasm that I make things up?

I don't attack you, your the only one of the right wingers in here who can actually make a valid point, its not an attack as much as it is pointing out that there is a flip side to every coin that you conveniently disregard. If an opinion is not in line with yours you try to make it seem like it is wrong and that whoever has a different opinion is brainwashed, drinking the koolaide, or caught up in the slant of MSM. Dismissing ideas that may not fall in line with yours simply because they do not follow your political affiliation is silly. I don't attack you, I like to play devil's advocate with you. I don't call you names or say "fail" or "wrong." I just point out that there is another side to the story. Just like the thread where Gary posted a Fox video and said in not so may words, try to disprove this, well how bout you prove its fact before you want me to disprove it. You try to act like your opinion is set in stone fact and never take time to consider other opinions, that is arrogant and a very closed minded way to go through life.

I admit that I might come off that way on some occasions, but I'm really about as open minded as they come. I have simply paid close attention to this for many years, and I've lived (actually aware of what's going on in politics) through some things witch many of the people who disagree with me in these threads have only read about, so I definitely have a different perspective on it in that respect. I also have plenty of experience in economics, specifically in business management, and I've seen first hand how different policy changes can affect a business, both positive and negative, and particularly how it affects the cost of having employees in a business. I have never claimed to have any info that others don't, but there are definitely things that I understand better than some people I have argued with, so I will point that out. I will especially point that out when someone either tries to insult my intelligence, or when someone attemtps to tell me or anyone else what my motives are.

And so you know, I was not a McCain supporter in the primary season, but when it came down to him or Obama, I looked at voting records, as well as backgrounds, and I knew that Obama was far more radical than anyone wanted to believe. I posted this on numerous occasions during election season, but it was brushed off. Now that he's doing a lot of the very things I knew he would do, it's quite frustrating that people still don't see it. I try to articulate things without making it personal, but you have to admit that sometimes people are asking for it with their pointed posts.

Also, I have quite a dry sense of humour, which is probably missed on more than one occasion.

Lastly, I'm going to say this again: why don't you post a good argument of the "other side of the coin" rather than simply trying to discredit me? I and genuinely serious that I would like to see what your perspective is. Give a reason to listen rather than a reason to defend my posts. If you believe my argument to lack support, post something of fact that refutes it. This is, after all, a debating forum.

I posted another book. Yay. I didn't mean to. Really.

I like scrolling down to see these blue books, lol... they keep me busy at work with something to read.

-Chris-



-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...