ok, i just defended the federation last night to a friend who was a proponent of this theory. i will wait until someone can bring up a good arguement before i jump in.
the federation was not communistic......bring it bitches!
Even if it was communistic or socialistic, what's the big deal if it was?
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of all the people to spoil the fun, i never thought it would be keeper, and on the first post nonetheless!
im just looking for a fun discussion for once. instead of arguing the politics of al gore or calling gays an abomination, i thought it would be fun to just relax and have a meaningless discussion on something. i mean its not like there is an actual answer to this anyway
come on keep....let your hair down and have some fun
Without seeing the pay grid for the enterprise, it's impossible to decide. There's an obvious hierarchy, so I doubt it's a communistic society.
Military communist dictatorship.
No money exchanged, ever. Never saw it once.
Society was organised by rank.
Official education through "The Academy". All information controlled through Feduration headquarters and access was limited acording to rank. Positions were assigned through apitude testing.
Because of replicators, all traditional forms of free enterprise were made redundant. No agriculture, no cottage industry.
If it wasn't communist, why did no-one ever just leave and start something on their own? Why was nobody ever "saving for retirement"?
PAX
Well, I wasn't under the imp-ression that this was supposed to be fun...apparently i was wrong.
A fun was discussion IMHO would be Spock vs. Data in a stand-up comedy competition. Hell, it would give Tom Green and Jerry Seinfeld some competition in being inherently un-funny.
But I can't see "In communist Star Trek, Starship Warps YOU"
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Hahahaha wrote:Military communist dictatorship.
The Enterprise, Voyager, etc were all military vehicles. The Federation had plenty of science, diplomatic, passenger vessels that had nothing to do with war.
Quote:
No money exchanged, ever. Never saw it once.
If you had a replicator, why would you need money? I could just make whatever I wanted. People worked out of a sense of pride and duty.
Quote:
Society was organised by rank.
There are a ton of episodes where they go to Federation worlds and I never saw them call the hot girls on the planet Captain Hot Pants. They were just regular people.
Quote:
Because of replicators, all traditional forms of free enterprise were made redundant. No agriculture, no cottage industry.
There was an episode I saw that showed Picard in the future tending to a field of grapevines. He did it out of enjoyment. They also made a reference in another to the mass of agriculture in France. I don't remember specifics.
Quote:
If it wasn't communist, why did no-one ever just leave and start something on their own? Why was nobody ever "saving for retirement"?
If there is no money, like you said, then save for retirement why? And start something on their own, like what?
People in Star Trek seemed to be motivated out of self improvement, the need to create or whatever. There are plenty of good solid examples today of people creating and innovating just for the sake of innovating.
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Agustin FTW. Picards Family were winemakers for hundreds of years according to the series backstory. Also in the original series you hear many remarking about pay and getting pay raises so obviously there were still monetary rewards in Kirks time but somewhere along the timeline they dropped the money thing before The Next Generation. One thing I've noticed about the various series, The next generation series seemed to have more of a peace and diplomatic thing to it where as Deep Space Nine with the Dominion War seemed to have a more kill or be killed attitude with alot less diplomacy.
I never should have said anything. I'm not a Trekie and therefore cannot argue effectively. How about this... On the surface, it appears to be some communistic ideal of Utopian society (war and all).
PAX
I always hated Star Trek for it's fruity tuty vision of an Earthly Utopia. And it's not because it's either communistic or capitalistic, but because it's insanely unrealistic. The ideology that everyone would all of a sudden work together in peace and harmony to forge a great all-inclusive Federation seems to ignore the obvious fact that people are selfish, self-motivated, violent, hypocritical and stupid. Oh sure, it believes (as is always believed by the intellectuals of any given "side") that if only the people were educated they would agree with this vision it could work. However, this is BS because they're not talking about education, but brainwashing. It's not about knowing the "facts" but about knowing the "right facts". You have to look no further than the Global Warming or Intelligent Design debates to see that behind all this talk of "improving" the world hides the desire to shape the world into the image of the idealist calling for improvement. Hell, even Star Trek itself has trouble with this view that every problem on Earth has been solved and had to kind of rewrite a lot of this stuff in retro-continuity because it was so ridiculous. In Deep Space 9 they had designed a betting table in Quark's bar and someone suddenly realized "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE BETTING WITH????"
...and nobody knew. Isn't that sad?
They invented Gold-pressed platinum soon after.
So what I'm saying is this... "Wrath of Khan" ruled and I only wished Khan would have won. He'd have fixed these tree-hugger's little red wagon and quick.
But melodramaticizing at Shatner is no way to defeat him...
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Oh c'mon, the Wrath of Khan was nothing more than a "who's the worst actor" contest.. Montobahn actually won.. Tough to do against Shatner... Heck, I though the only guy that could pull it off was James Garner
At least "The voyage Home" was funny...
PAX
Give me the Wrath of Kahn anyday
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who really cares...seriously
Remember the alien vs. predator movie that came out a couple years ago..........I think they should make a StarWars vs Star Trek movie.....I don't think that trekkies would stand a chance in the movie honestly, but maybe we could see some of the finer girls in the shows in like a Battle Royale Mud Fight!!!!
Im gonna have to go with Star trek was a Terrorist Regime.......Reasons being are these
1. They were just out roaming around the galaxy trying to press there beliefs on other cultures, when that didnt work they instantly tried to go to that planet where they werent welcomed, and by doing so made some enemies....
2. Im gonna have to go with the no money thing was a form of slavery...... Thats the only way that whole ordeal could of happened anyways, i mean seriously, all those different races, cultures, and even religions would never be able to stay on one ship, for that amount of time without a single outbreak of anarchy!!!
I def think Kahn was the pure winner in the war of the bad actors but that would of never allowed for The NExt Generation to come along!!
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the only people that rivals Shatner's level of bad acting are Keeanu Reeves, Pia Ziadora, and Tori Spelling.
Honorable mention to Kevin Costner in "Prince of Thieves", But Freeman and Rickman saved his ass in that one.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Back on topic: HORSE @!#$.
In later series (ST:TNG, ST
S9, ST:Voyager), there was plenty of evidence of trading and use of currency:
- Pressed Latinum Bars (remember the Ferengi?)
- Rationing and gambling with Transporter rations (on Voyager, Paris had a numbers lottery, and transporter rations was all that could be used as currency)
- Going above your "pay-grade" in DS9 when Sisko was performing his Emissary duties.
They didn't use an extensive financial system because it wasn't conducive to the story lines, and when it was, it was the Latinum Bars.
If you think about it, The Federation would have worked a lot like the European Union, basically dumping individual local currencies for a standard (the Euro or Federation Credits) and having a broad currency for outside transactions (US dollar/British Pound Sterling/German Mark/Swiss Franc, and Latinum).
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Replicator rations.
Not sure why they'd want to trade transporter rations...
Thanks
Replicators are micro-transporters, but that's beside the point
Knoxfire: Gene Roddenberry made the original Star Trek to be a utopian ideal, but there were conflicts between the Federation, The Klingon Empire and the Romulan Empire. There wasn't really any weird ideals... it was different to see Humanity operating as one (remember, this was the time unification of racial groups through the use of the mini-skirt
). Basically there was blacks, asians and caucasians working together, and that supported Roddenberry's idea of IDIC (infinite diversity, infinite combinations), but the further extension of that was other alien races (like Spock, Worf, Maj./Col. Kira Nerys, Ezri/Jadzia Dax... etc) working together in later episodes.
There HAS to be conflict of some type. Otherwise, there's no story. The conflicts early on were kind of childish or WAY out there, no question it was very much like the original ST. Later on with ST:TNG you had the Borg and all through you had the run-ins with Q. The story lines were very diverse, and got really good towards the end. ST
S9 gave birth to the conflict between the Dominion, and the alliance of the Federation, The Romulans, The Klingons, and other major empires, uniting former foes against a greater malevolence. ST:Voyager had a lot of minor problems, but also brought back the Borg, and even re-assimilated a former drone. There are tons and tons of conflicts, and on going threads in the Star Trek universe.
It's not perfect, and it's not everyone's cup of tea, no doubts. I'm not a hard-core Trekkie by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a good sci-fi series, and there are decent plots. It's the kind of thing I really wouldn't mind my own kids watching.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
I thought their currency was treknobabble.
you know, some character, like Weasly Crusher, coming up with some pseudo-science that saves the ship at the last minute.
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The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
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Hey now... Scotty always held back a little when he said you've got everything he could give... that way when he pulled out a bit more power, he was a miracle worker
I was really glad when Wesley just walked off the show... The character was becoming uninteresting.
In the beginning, there really wasn't any monetary system across the galaxy.... even in ST:TOS, there really wasn't any. In ST:TNG they had to create something because you had non-federation groups (principally the Ferengi, but also Kardassians and individual freebooters) interacting with the Federation. Outside of trading technology and information, they needed a plot device to establish worth, and something that can't be counterfitted..
http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Latinum
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Knoxfire wrote:I always hated Star Trek for it's fruity tuty vision of an Earthly Utopia. And it's not because it's either communistic or capitalistic, but because it's insanely unrealistic. The ideology that everyone would all of a sudden work together in peace and harmony to forge a great all-inclusive Federation seems to ignore the obvious fact that people are selfish, self-motivated, violent, hypocritical and stupid. Oh sure, it believes (as is always believed by the intellectuals of any given "side") that if only the people were educated they would agree with this vision it could work. However, this is BS because they're not talking about education, but brainwashing. It's not about knowing the "facts" but about knowing the "right facts". You have to look no further than the Global Warming or Intelligent Design debates to see that behind all this talk of "improving" the world hides the desire to shape the world into the image of the idealist calling for improvement. Hell, even Star Trek itself has trouble with this view that every problem on Earth has been solved and had to kind of rewrite a lot of this stuff in retro-continuity because it was so ridiculous. In Deep Space 9 they had designed a betting table in Quark's bar and someone suddenly realized "WHAT THE HELL ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE BETTING WITH????"
...and nobody knew. Isn't that sad?
They invented Gold-pressed platinum soon after.
So what I'm saying is this... "Wrath of Khan" ruled and I only wished Khan would have won. He'd have fixed these tree-hugger's little red wagon and quick.
Latinum. AND MONEY does exist, just crewman, officers ect serving in the federation do not earn pay. They do it to better them selves. All other races in the show still use currency. (Ferengi FTW).
I was a HUGE ST fan as a kid, I dont think I have seen an episode in a long time though
My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
