I am not openly attacking any one particular group, but the whole entire picture regarding the human race and their devout attactchment to religion. I just don't understand the logic behind all of it.

1. Perhaps if such strong ties to these beliefs were never in place, money spent and resources used to create facilities, operate such facilities and support it's cause could be diverted to other needs. Property used for other purposes. Manpower available for other neccessities of civilization. Advancement of society.

2. If life lessons, morals and other life teachings were never tied to religion, there would be far less hostility between different ethnics of people. Being a good person has NOTHING to do with what religion you reside your faith in, it's about knowing right from wrong. Being humane and honest.

3. Biggest cause of war since the stoneage? Difference in beliefs. Religion has caused more wars in the history of the human race then any other issue.

4. Instead of the many centuries of religious teachings and such that took place we could have advanced hard sciences like mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. Also, people who were at the forefront of advancing these fields were marked by the church as deviants, evil people. Absurd.

5. You think political leaders are power mongrols? No different then the respected leaders of all major religions. It's politics with a bible. The more power a certain faith has, the more influence it's ideals are. That, and it plays back into normal politics.

6. Many, MANY people live lives directly or undirectly to better their supposed afterlife. They make sacrafices, tolerances and exceptions to try to benefit this. They sometimes give up things they love. For the purpose of something that can NEVER be proven, only theorized about. There is no do-good bank account you can cash in once you kick the bucket.

7. Gods and other beyond-human attributes were given to things in nature that could not be explained at the time, or feared. God for thunder. God for the rivers, lakes and oceans. God for creation. God for punishment. We've come a very long way since those days, more and more understanding of our world everyday. The world is round, we're not the centre of the universe and if you 'sin' you will not be smited out of exsistance.

6. Personal experience: Friend of my fathers, son, Mike was severely unstable. Suffered from bad bouts of depression. The father was of the oldschool, logical and straightforward. The son sometimes didn't get along with the father. One night he stayed overnight at his mother's sisters apartment. His mother, on the other hand was a born-again Christian (doesn't matter what religion, just an example in this case). She told him God will save him. Medicine is wrong. God takes care of his children. Well, so much for such beliefs. He went into the bedroom and onto the balcony. He leaped off the 19th story. Where is God now? The medication was helping him. He stopped taking it under his mother's advice. His mother's insane claims did nothing to help.

You put it down on paper. You measure it. You try to prove the benefit of otherwordly teachings. A place up above. You can't. It's personal and I respect that, but I don't respect the effects it has on the human race. I see it far less beneficial then it's all claimed to be. I figure in this day and age with such a fast pace of technological advancement, scientific discovery and a better understanding of the world we live in that we'll no longer need religion to act as a media to teach basic life lessons, morals and good doing. Will the conflicts in the middle east ever be settled? No, not while there is such a lack of tolerance for other relgions. The holy land? They kill eachother every damn day over a barren desert. Our soldiers, both American and Canadian are killed daily thanks to differences in religions (other causes as well, but that being the main one). How can only possibly justify such beliefs? How is it humane? What use is it anymore?

I'm very curious to hear intelligent rebuttles to these statements. I personally have zero ties to religion. Also, very little tolerance for all the effects it has on the humance race.I don't need it, I don't believe in a heaven, hell or whatever else. The only belief I hold loosely is Karma. More or less a chance of pobability. Be good, good will happen. Burn enough bridges, you'll get burned.

About the most intelligent response I've seen to your questions:

Imagine-John Lennon wrote:
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Honestly, I can only say that people are going to believe what they're going to believe. And they will act on those beliefs.

Such is life.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

Repost




5pointO

kidduntradishunal wrote:1. Perhaps if such strong ties to these beliefs were never in place, money spent and resources used to create facilities, operate such facilities and support it's cause could be diverted to other needs. Property used for other purposes. Manpower available for other neccessities of civilization. Advancement of society.

Same could be said for weapons, or perhaps golf courses. Allow people the freedom of choice.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
2. If life lessons, morals and other life teachings were never tied to religion, there would be far less hostility between different ethnics of people. Being a good person has NOTHING to do with what religion you reside your faith in, it's about knowing right from wrong. Being humane and honest.

If people actually listened to the teachings of their religions there would be more tolerence and less killing

kidduntradishunal wrote:
3. Biggest cause of war since the stoneage? Difference in beliefs. Religion has caused more wars in the history of the human race then any other issue.

Not true. The number one cause for war is despute over resources. The number one propaganda tool used by governments in order to rally their people to war has been religion. Big difference.

The Crusades... Land grab by the Catholic church.. The Templer benefitted the most and were therefore excommunicated.
The "Hundred Years War".. Despute betwwen France and England over wool trade.
The French Indian War.. Land grab by France.
The American Indian War.. You Guessed it.
The Spanish American War.. Again..
WWI.. One country annexing another.
WWII One Country annexing a few, then taking a couple more.. Then aspiring to have Fascism rule the world.. The extermination of Jews was a consiquence and not a cause of the war.

Then it became about "Spheres of Influence" during the so called "Cold War" between the US and the USSR
Vietnam, Korea.. The Cuban missle crisis..North Afrian conflics, strife in Latin America, etc etc etc

The Middle East.. The Palistinian conflict is about Land, access to "Holy" sites is not primary.

Gulf War I Making sure that US friendly Kuwait will be there to sell the oil from a former Iraqi held province.
Gulf War II Ditto to above, as well as securing Iraqi oil directly and protecting US friendly allies in the region.

Wars are always about resource. Access to shipping, land, crops, livestock, water, oil, influence, you name it.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
4. Instead of the many centuries of religious teachings and such that took place we could have advanced hard sciences like mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. Also, people who were at the forefront of advancing these fields were marked by the church as deviants, evil people. Absurd.

The first learning institusions were established by the church. The first University was built and funded by the church. It was not until the renesance that *some* schools were established as secular institutions. Religious schools remain to this day and continue to help in the advance of science. There has never been a contradiction as dicovering the mysteries of God's creation is to the benefit of us all. Your views about religion, science and education are mis-guided.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
5. You think political leaders are power mongrols? No different then the respected leaders of all major religions. It's politics with a bible. The more power a certain faith has, the more influence it's ideals are. That, and it plays back into normal politics.

That's just people being people wherever they go. We are a flawed creature.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
6. Many, MANY people live lives directly or undirectly to better their supposed afterlife. They make sacrafices, tolerances and exceptions to try to benefit this. They sometimes give up things they love. For the purpose of something that can NEVER be proven, only theorized about. There is no do-good bank account you can cash in once you kick the bucket.

They may "give up" something they love, but it is for something they love even more. You may never understand, but that does not mean their actions are without worth. You have no idea, none of us really do.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
7. Gods and other beyond-human attributes were given to things in nature that could not be explained at the time, or feared. God for thunder. God for the rivers, lakes and oceans. God for creation. God for punishment. We've come a very long way since those days, more and more understanding of our world everyday. The world is round, we're not the centre of the universe and if you 'sin' you will not be smited out of exsistance.

Maybe the fact that this theme is universal and keeps popping up in every culture and time... Maybe, just maybe, there's something to it?

Sin in the Christian context has always been there to remind you of your imperfections and the presence of the perfect. It is not there to smite you, but to humble you, partially so that you may afford others their flaws and become tolerent of imperfect actions.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
6. Personal experience: Friend of my fathers, son, Mike was severely unstable. Suffered from bad bouts of depression. The father was of the oldschool, logical and straightforward. The son sometimes didn't get along with the father. One night he stayed overnight at his mother's sisters apartment. His mother, on the other hand was a born-again Christian (doesn't matter what religion, just an example in this case). She told him God will save him. Medicine is wrong. God takes care of his children. Well, so much for such beliefs. He went into the bedroom and onto the balcony. He leaped off the 19th story. Where is God now? The medication was helping him. He stopped taking it under his mother's advice. His mother's insane claims did nothing to help.

Wack jobs come in all forms.. Don't blame religion for that one just because she happened to be religious. There are millions of religious people who would have followed the doctor's advice.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
The only belief I hold loosely is Karma. More or less a chance of pobability. Be good, good will happen. Burn enough bridges, you'll get burned.

It's a start

PAX

I didn't even bother reading past #1 before hitting "Quote" because I knew this would be easy.

kidduntradishunal wrote:I am not openly attacking any one particular group, but the whole entire picture regarding the human race and their devout attactchment to religion. I just don't understand the logic behind all of it.

1. Perhaps if such strong ties to these beliefs were never in place, money spent and resources used to create facilities, operate such facilities and support it's cause could be diverted to other needs. Property used for other purposes. Manpower available for other neccessities of civilization. Advancement of society.

The reason mankind has advanced at all is because of organization. Religion has been the basis of many governments, and has also been the counter-check to many others.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
2. If life lessons, morals and other life teachings were never tied to religion, there would be far less hostility between different ethnics of people. Being a good person has NOTHING to do with what religion you reside your faith in, it's about knowing right from wrong. Being humane and honest.

That's real easy to say today, but the 10 Commandmens and their equivalents have been a pretty decent moral foundation for many for a good long time. It's a good foundation to build a person around. Knowing the 10 Commandments, however, doesn't make you a good person no more than knowing the Bill of Rights makes you a good politician.

I'm not really sure how you tie religion in general to hostilities between ethnic people. Bad people can distory anything, government or religion, to their purpose, and bad people are the ones to blame.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
3. Biggest cause of war since the stoneage? Difference in beliefs. Religion has caused more wars in the history of the human race then any other issue.

I'm getting real tired of hearing this. And how many good deeds have been done in the name of religion? How many lives saved, people fed, diseases treated, monies donated, children educated because of religion? It's become awfully easy to overlook the good deeds of Christianity and Islam these days when it's convenient.

My church ALONE this year does this... food giveaway every week, feeds the homeless in at their "tent city", funds inner-city after school programs that school district can't afford, free summer camps, free drug and alcohol addiction treatment, a foster care agency, turkey giveaway at Thanksgiving, going to the jail and trying to right some inmates, and last year donated over 25,000 toys to children!

And they do this with a congregation that ITSELF is below the poverty line, mostly because they have nearly no administration costs because everybody donates time. The only paid employee in any of the above is one lady in the foster care agency. And I'm glad I can say I'm apart of it all.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
4. Instead of the many centuries of religious teachings and such that took place we could have advanced hard sciences like mathematics, biology, chemistry and physics. Also, people who were at the forefront of advancing these fields were marked by the church as deviants, evil people. Absurd.

There are a few popular stories that support your statement, when taken in passing, but the truth is much more complex. The Mayans, Incas and Egyptions largely used their religion to support their science. And early Christians kept literacy alive after the fall of the Roman empire, and used science to debunk superstitions that not only conflicted with Christianity, but also reasoning and logic. It doesnt take much effort to see that religion and science are NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
5. You think political leaders are power mongrols? No different then the respected leaders of all major religions. It's politics with a bible. The more power a certain faith has, the more influence it's ideals are. That, and it plays back into normal politics.

Nothing like stating the obvious.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
6. Many, MANY people live lives directly or undirectly to better their supposed afterlife. They make sacrafices, tolerances and exceptions to try to benefit this. They sometimes give up things they love. For the purpose of something that can NEVER be proven, only theorized about. There is no do-good bank account you can cash in once you kick the bucket.

You made an affirmative statement at the end there that not only shows your ignorance of the Bible, but contradicts your "can't prove" assertion earlier in the same paragraph. Absence of evidence is not proof to the contrary. As far as the "do-good" bank account goes, that's not how it works. And I'm not going to be your Sunday School teacher today, so you'll have to look it up.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
7. Gods and other beyond-human attributes were given to things in nature that could not be explained at the time, or feared. God for thunder. God for the rivers, lakes and oceans. God for creation. God for punishment. We've come a very long way since those days, more and more understanding of our world everyday. The world is round, we're not the centre of the universe and if you 'sin' you will not be smited out of exsistance.

You're meshing a lot of different beliefs from a lot of different time periods into one statement of ridiculousness that isn't worth a whole lot to the thread.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
6. Personal experience: Friend of my fathers, son, Mike was severely unstable. Suffered from bad bouts of depression. The father was of the oldschool, logical and straightforward. The son sometimes didn't get along with the father. One night he stayed overnight at his mother's sisters apartment. His mother, on the other hand was a born-again Christian (doesn't matter what religion, just an example in this case). She told him God will save him. Medicine is wrong. God takes care of his children. Well, so much for such beliefs. He went into the bedroom and onto the balcony. He leaped off the 19th story. Where is God now? The medication was helping him. He stopped taking it under his mother's advice. His mother's insane claims did nothing to help.

Ah, I get it. You have a personal experience and you're going to allow a nutjob to represent everyone else. Good job. I have a non-personal experience. Mother Teresa ran medical clinics for orphans that had real medicine. Chew on that concept.

kidduntradishunal wrote:
You put it down on paper. You measure it. You try to prove the benefit of otherwordly teachings. A place up above. You can't. It's personal and I respect that, but I don't respect the effects it has on the human race.

That's because you see only what you want to see. You've clearly turned this into a black and white issue in your mind.

A topic of such history, such variation, deserves better than your statement for an impossible number of reasons.

I suggest you visit a large variety of your local religion institutions, shake some hands and judge for yourself.
You'll find some crazies, but I bet you'll find a lot more people asking for a hand during their next outreach.



---

I'll try to make this simple:

1. Religion is not limited to Christian, or Monotheism faithes. People seem to forget this often.
2. Religion is 100% based on a person's preception--ergo, Religion is personal.
3. No one can know everything there is--conjectures need to be made since nothing can be proven in the absolute. Religion in it's many forms provides an explanation for the relative.
4. Therefore, everyone is religious--since even atheism and agnosticism are religions.

Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]I'll try to make this simple:

1. Religion is not limited to Christian, or Monotheism faithes. People seem to forget this often.
2. Religion is 100% based on a person's preception--ergo, Religion is personal.
3. No one can know everything there is--conjectures need to be made since nothing can be proven in the absolute. Religion in it's many forms provides an explanation for the relative.
4. Therefore, everyone is religious--since even atheism and agnosticism are religions.

Exactly. People believe what they will believe.

For some people their certain religion can help them find peace in their lives.

For some people, it gives them a moral basis in order to base themselves on with society.

For some people, it gives them reason as to why they are here.

For me, it's all the above.

And please don't base all Christians on the crazy ones who force everything down your throat, we're not all like that.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]I'll try to make this simple:

1. Religion is not limited to Christian, or Monotheism faithes. People seem to forget this often.
2. Religion is 100% based on a person's preception--ergo, Religion is personal.
3. No one can know everything there is--conjectures need to be made since nothing can be proven in the absolute. Religion in it's many forms provides an explanation for the relative.
4. Therefore, everyone is religious--since even atheism and agnosticism are religions.

Nicely said.




5pointO

KOTL's not just another cute pale face in the crowd ya know




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

<---takes a bow>

please, tip your waitress


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.