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Uncovering the truth and debunking the myths about Toledo's Muslim community
by Phillip L. Kaplan
Islam has existed for 1,300 years, in Toledo formally for 53 years, starting with the building of the Islamic Center of Greater Toledo (now in Perrysburg) at 722 East Bancroft, the third mosque built in the United States, following Cedar Rapids, Iowa, in 1894 and Detroit in 1921.
There are five mosques serving Toledo, including one just over the line in Lambertville, Mich., with an estimated 6,000 nationally. Globally, there are 1.5 billion Muslims, the followers of Islam. In Toledo, there are 6,000.
The default reaction most non-Muslims have to Islam is misunderstanding mixed with a varying dose of xenophobia. But the people who follow Islam are people — men and women like all of us.
We spoke with all local Imams, plus the President of the Muslim Student Association at the University of Toledo, Sarah Alfaham; Mohammed Alo, Webmaster since 1995 of the site www.toledomuslims.com; and Yehia "John" Shousher, a Muslim active in the Toledo community and one of the founders of Toledo’s first mosque. All, except Alfaham and Alo, immigrated to this country.
Sunni, Shi’a, Salafi, Wahhabi, Sufi… what are these differences?
Within these main thought lines there are varied practices and derivatives, often mixing and matching.
Sunni Muslims are the largest denomination of Ummah, the whole of the Muslim community. Sunnis follow the teachings of Mohammed and his first four descendents (or caliphs) and believe that Islamic leadership should be elected based upon who will do the best job. Toledo’s Muslim community is predominantly Sunni.
Shi’a Muslims are the second-largest group (roughly 10-15 percent of the world and Toledo Muslim community). Characterized by following 10 "branches of religion" instead of the traditional five pillars, they believe Mohammed designated his son-in-law, Ali, to succeed him as leader. Shi’as believe that Islamic leadership should be predetermined by lineage to the original caliphs. This is the stark difference between Sunnis and Shi’as.
Salafi Muslims (3 percent local and world) are often claimed to practice Wahhabism, a school of thought originated by the scholar Muhammad bin Abdal Wahhab. Salafis practice a stricter version of Islam, more based in tradition and fundamentals. But, they do not use the term ‘Wahhabi.’ That is more of a media label. A crude synonym for Salafi would be Amish: believing in the older ways and thinking differently, but still part of a larger religion. Wahhabis are an insignificant presence
in Toledo, if there are any here at all.
Imam Ibrahim says the Salafis are trying "to decrease religious compromise."
Imam Lela, a rangy man who played professional soccer and has an entertaining swoop handshake, says Wahhabism started in returning to tradition, but became inflexible, "It needs to adjust to life. Islam is flexible. To make it inflexible is a disservice."
The Masjid at-Tawfeeq is the mosque where local Salafis practice. It recently received some negative press, because it is where Marwan Othman El-Hindi, one of three Toledo-area men indicted on terrorism charges Feb. 21, worshipped.
Sufi Muslims are the hippies. The antithesis of Wahhabism, Sufism, says Imam Aboelzahab, is a more mystical branch of Islam and is not a true practice according to Mohammed, "It wasn’t around when the Prophet was." Ibrahim describes Sufis as more meditative and driven toward evolving their spirituality, wanting a "higher understanding." Aboelzahab says Sufis just "want to sit around" while to truly follow Mohammed, whom Muslims believe to be the best example of what a human can be, means working and being involved in the community. But, what would the world be without some old sages who sit and listen to the river? (Less than 1 percent.)
Man and Woman?
The Qur’an teaches that men and women were formed from a single soul, though in many mosques the women pray separately from the men. In some sects, Salafism for example, the women follow strict rules of conduct.
The scarf worn on a woman’s head is a "hijab.” Some women wear it, some don’t; it is a personal, sectarian decision varying from region to region.
Alo, 30, a "Toledo boy" who played football at St. John’s, graduated from UT and currently attends med school at Midwestern University in Chicago, is "a moderate Muslim, like most." He says some Muslims feel stronger about keeping men and women separate, like Salafis, because traditional teachings encourage purity and chastity. Alo’s view — "most don’t feel the need to be that extreme."
Shousher says the differences in treatment of women are cultural, holdovers from societal archetypes. They do not define Islam one way or another. "Islam was the first religion to give women true rights," he notes.
"During Mohammed’s time women were liberated," says Ibrahim, "but the nature of society at that time forced women to forego enjoying that freedom."
Umar Quinn, unofficial leader of Masjid At-Tawfeeq: "When the Prophet Mohammed died, there were about 350,000 Muslims. Only six were considered true scholars; one of them was the Prophet’s wife, A’ishah. She was a doctor… There is no prohibition on secular or religious knowledge."
Islam does not neglect local traditions — and did not — because in the birthplaces of Islam — Africa, Asia, and India — "women were subservient to men," says Ibrahim.
Lela clarifies that "local tradition is never more important than Islam ... for women to be illiterate or not gain knowledge, that is not Islam."
Some Muslim men have more than one wife at the same time. Why? When is this positive? Negative?
First, the Qur’an neither prohibits nor encourages polygamy. Second, Aboelzahab says contemplatively, "Less than 1/2 percent of Muslims live this way. People have to have a reason, more than love, to marry a second wife demands permission from the first."
Ibrahim adds, "The Qur’an says one is best… Culturally, when the Qur’an was revealed, there was a limit imposed of no more than four wives."
He says the practice started because of war deaths, when more women were around than men. "Women had to marry (or they would not survive).
"We also observe the cultural practices of other countries."
Lela explains there is a question on the immigration test for Muslim immigrants: ‘Do you intend to practice polygamy?’
"If they answer yes, they will be turned away."
Basics
Five Pillars of Islam: acceptance of God’s oneness, five sessions daily, fasting, giving, and pilgrimage to Mecca.
Qur’an: holy book, read from back to front, believed to be one of four scriptures revealed as the word of God [also: the Torah and Moses, Psalms and David, and Bible and Jesus].
Mohammed: Born in Mecca, 571-634, he is the Prophet of Islam.
Hadith: sayings and practices of the Prophet not in the Qur’an.
Jumah is the Muslim day of worship; the prayer is on Friday. (Funny how that worked out: Islam got Friday, Judaism took Saturday and the Christians Sunday. Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, as were Moses, Abraham, John the Baptist, and many other figures of other faiths. They believe Mohammed is the last prophet spoken to by God.)
Israel? Jews and Christians?
Imams gave formal, politically correct, but dodgey answers on this subject.
Islam dictates "there is no compulsion in religion," there is no reward nor punishment for religion on this Earth (a sly way of saying ‘wait till God gets you’), and Mohammed taught the acceptance of diversity.
Shousher is more effusive, "Toledo has made history with positive relations. Muslims, Christians and Jews worked together for Habitat for Humanity — it never happened anywhere else in the United States. We all did that. We never needed any political involvement for our existence. We love and respect and care for our friends… And in this community, there’s never been a record of Muslim violence … maybe a few acts of individuals, but these are individuals only."
Still, when it comes to Israel, Shousher says things like, "We never had any problems until the creation of Israel." Alo’s talk is similar, "All these problems with Israel are politically motivated, they’re about greed and land. In any text, you can find obscure verses, violent verses that get only worse taken out of context. Extremists trick the illiterate like this. Politicians use religion all the time. There are no phrases in the Qur’an telling you to kill Christians and Jews. The Qur’an encourages other religions!"
The gray comes from the people of the faith and politics, rather than the faith itself. Person to person on the street, Muslims get along with any — happily. With local institutional and religious-based settings there is often a political correctness in relationships. Joel Beren, CEO of the United Jewish Council of Greater Toledo would not speak on record, for example. And Aboelzahab was very brief in his comments about Israel. In some Muslim classrooms in the Islamic Center, maps have the name Israel penciled out, though Shousher and Aboelzahab dismiss this as an act of a misunderstanding child.
When small things like flag colors on toothpicks at a multifaith meeting cause political friction, big things like the claimed homeland of a righteous and displaced people become magnified.
The battles and misunderstanding are rampant in Gaza, Ibrahim says, having visited the area. When he asked what they were fighting for, "Most had no idea what it was even about, they were just fighting."
"It’s all about education," says Aboelzahab, "Islam is more important than a political system, and all people have the right to exist."
The idea of Palestine existing as a state is a big deal to Muslims and Jews. Speaking broadly, Jews want Israel to be recognized and honored by Muslim leadership before Palestine is created, and the Muslims want Palestine to exist formally before they honor Israel.
Chicken and egg.
Do Muslims expect the whole world to follow Islam?
Not even close. Aboelzahab says, "If God wanted all people to be Muslim, we would have all been Muslim."
Ibrahim adds, "But we do struggle until there is no more oppression in religion."
Jihad?
If a man struggles to please God with his memorization of vocabulary, that’s his jihad. And he is called a mujahid, "someone in a personal struggle or ‘survivor,’" says Lela. The greatest Jihad, says Ibrahim, is the struggle to please God within one’s soul in every aspect of life.
‘Jihad’ is also a somewhat common Muslim first name. No one names their kid ‘Holy War’ — Jihad’s usual connotation in America. But, before the Am-erican twist, jihad was something like ‘fighting the
good fight.’
Why so much violence?
Aboelzahab says, "No terrorist practices true Islam. People sometimes mix in their mistaken beliefs with Islam... Again, I see violence as more ignorance than anything, and it’s mostly done for personal gain."
"Never happened until the last 60 years," Shousher says, "Not just in the Muslim world but in the world at large. We ate your food, you ate our food. We lived in harmony. Political statements, threatening, one-sided media … not one Jew or Muslim was killed until 1948 (the creation of Israel). A proper solution to save lives did not and has not happened."
Like many elder Muslims in America, Shousher is an immigrant. Originally from Lebanon, the constant state of unrest means he, like many, cannot return home to his village, "My home is occupied. Imagine if you couldn’t go home… When you create refugees worldwide, people with no home, what do they have to live for, where can they go? They go to violence."
Shousher adds this is not a one-sided issue; peace has to come from us over here as well as them over there.
Depicting the Prophet?
Shousher says the Prophet is not to be represented "because to do so belittles
their status. What looks good to you might not look good to others."
For non-Muslims, honoring the nondepiction of Mohammed is just courtesy, it’s good karma. And it’s easier. Like white people using the N-word. Just don’t.
Each Imam agrees the violent reactions to the Danish cartoons last year were more toxic than the cartoons themselves, and "not Muslim."
Aboelzahab justifies, "Freedom ends when the rights of others are invaded."
Ibrahim: "Look at the nature of society. The Toledo riots are a good example, there are some of the most uneducated people on both sides. They’re not enlightened — removed from God and balance. "Truth is: most religious people are ignorant worshippers."
If a Muslim drew these cartoons, I could see some outrage, but still not violence.
Lela stresses the idea of "too much freedom," he says just because you can doesn’t mean you should.
Transvestites, gays, lesbians, transgender people, and pornography?
Everyone answers: "All are welcome in Islam." But there are some interesting subplots.
Exploiting sex is never acceptable in Islam.
Ibrahim speaks of transgenders and transvestites: "A man who believes he is a woman, or a woman a man — even if they believe that, they should honor that God created us this way. People will struggle with that, that is their jihad."
Aboelzahab says a special case is an hermaphrodite, "That is acceptable because that is the way God made them." But gays and lesbians are "not considered natural." (And yet, homosexuality has been around since before Islam, Judaism and Christianity.)
Aboelzahab clarifies this is not to insult, but feels "they will be responsible before God… Each person has a good and bad side, everyone has a kind of abnormality. We must promote and develop our good side — our normality."
Evolution?
Though Muslims are credited with innovative contributions to real numbers, non-Euclidean geometry, integral calculus, microbiology and astronomy, in terms of evolution, Muslim scientists might be as rare as German stand-up comics.
"We do not believe man evolved from a species no longer here. Man was made from clay. There is no room in Islam for evolution," claims Aboelzahab.
This depends whom you speak with, but, Alo says all believe in Adam and Eve. Most take the allegory as literal and believe the focus of all religions, and God, is mankind.
Lela: "The Qur’an is utterly from God… Evolution is not a religious issue to us." He also says an interesting thing, "God is the only unchangeable," which seems to leave the door open for organisms to continually adapt and readapt to their environments while maintaining the same essential driving energy: God.
Ibrahim simply says, "evolution is for God to determine… think about if we did come from Adam and Eve, then we’ve already evolved quite a bit into all different shapes, sizes and colors."
Abortion?
Ibrahim says, "You are not permitted to kill your children out of fear or want. But, if the mother’s life is threatened, then it is her decision."
"In cases of rape or incest, Islam recommends taking the baby to term. If the mother cannot deal, she may have an abortion up until 40 days. In the Qur’an, it says the fetus has a real soul after 40 days. After that, unless the mother’s life is in danger or the baby is proven dead, you cannot have an abortion."
Masjid?
Masjid = mosque, where Muslims worship. A Mosque can be very ornate, such as the Islamic Center, or simple-simple, such as the Masjid at-Tawfeeq.
Jumah?
Muslims pray five times a day, but the Friday prayer, Jumah, is most important. Friday is their day of worship. Sunday is a full workday.
Jumah, as I witnessed it at the Masjid Saad Foundation, was very much like any house of faith: kids goofed off in the back while solemn, pious men sat or prayed peacefully. I was starred at the way most Muslims are outside the Mosque on Toledo streets. I minded my camera to show my fidelity to the job.
No shoes. I sat with the men, women not present. That’s the way of MSF, but the Islamic Center’s Imam Farooq Aboelzahab showed me men and women pray in the same room, which is separated by a divider. There are over 6,000 different sects of Christianity all with different style and essentially the same substance. Islam is similar.
So many bared feet in a quickly warming room make an aroma not often encountered. Plus chicken schwarma-type wraps are sold in the hallway at MSF. Unique thing, that smell. Yet, there is something decent and whole about taking the shoes off. Our feet are the thing in most frequent contact with the world, on the Earth sustaining us. To bare them is to make yourself more vulnerable and more of a receptor to truth. Native American Indians do it for serious conversations to show empathy. It feels familial.
Muslims believe in big, strong families who all live and learn together. MSF’s Imam Aly Lela explains many Muslim families live together, grandparents or grandchildren and all in between in the same house, "The best way to define a Muslim is his religion, we get strength from each other… It is a more American idea that one must move out of the home."
During the service there are varying degrees of faith to witness in the congregates, Lela preaches on a specific topic for his ‘sermon,’ which is delivered in bilingual tongue with some guttural chanting, "hellfire" is mentioned along with requests to be truer to the faith, to overcome "problems with alcohol" and the like, and followers are encouraged to involve themselves more in the community.
Infidel?
The covering over of a truth. Muslims can be infidels as much as anyone else.
There is a word, ‘taqiyya,’ which says it is okay to hide one’s true beliefs in certain situations. Aboelzahab says this is a non-word not taught by Mohammed, "You can invent any word, why attach it to Islam?"
Masjid Al Islam’s Imam Ibrahim, a calm and deliberately speaking man, referenced the Qur’an for the concept to say it’s all right "if your life is threatened." Lela says he is unfamiliar with the word, but feels life is the most important gift and sometimes this is done to protect it.
What is the Islamic Brotherhood? Same as Muslim Brotherhood?
No. "The Believers are but a single Brotherhood," says the Qur’an. The Islamic Brotherhood is not based on economic interests, race, nor color. It is based on acceptance of the Truth as revealed by the One True God.
Faith and community, what Westerners call church and state, in countries dominated by Islam are totally inseparable. All Muslims working together is the Islamic Brotherhood.
The Muslim Brotherhood (Al-Ikhwan al-Muslimun) was founded in Egypt in 1928 by Hasan al-Banna (1906-1949), a Sufi (hippie) revivalist thinker and activist. The MB is more about getting people together for economic interests rather than calling people to Mohammed.
There seems to be a competition for who’s right about God — between Muslims themselves, and between Islam and other religions. Is this absurd?
Aboelzahab says, "There is no competition." Ibrahim says, "In the Qur’an it says to strive, as in a race, towards all that is good. But this should be a healthy competition, certainly not to the point where there is destruction." Lela elaborates, "We are required to compete in good, but not to be good to make others bad."
And Sarah, the enthusiastic 20-year-old studying Spanish as a minor in addition to her print media major, is in a competition to know as much about other religions as possible. "I love to study them and when someone says, ‘I don’t want to offend you but I’ve heard this about Islam,’ I’m like, ‘Offf course I want hear this!’ I want to dispel myths. Is the war on terror a war on Islam?
American Muslims are scared of terrorists too, but for them it is double jeopardy. Since terrorism is so equated with a polarized friction between extremists who happen to be Arab, terrorism for many Muslims means a fear for life and fear for faith.
"Terrorists, " says Ibrahim, "portray themselves as Muslims. That is a reality. We have to draw the line on what is truly Islam. The President says [the war on terror] is not a war on Islam, but it can be misunderstood that way… Economics are the catalysts for most wars, directly or indirectly."
Lela says, "I wish… I believe it is only a war on terror. But around the world many Muslims feel otherwise."
Imam Aboelzahab wants only to be shown where "one Muslim country invaded another… We’re invaded by mainly Christian countries."
Does Islam need to modernize?
Aboelzahab says, "Islam is moderation and respect. Islam needs no modernizing. Muslims could use more education though."
"With freedom of worship or freedom of business or living [in Toledo], we never had any problem before. Then 9/11 created a lot of problems, for us here and for Muslims all over. It had a two-edged sword, affecting the relationships we worked so hard on here and then all the Islam world was swept under one broom: bin Laden this and that.
"Unfortunately people still have a problem differentiating between the faith and the individual. Extremists are in all religions and all walks of life. [9/11] hurt us a lot, but we have to live with it."
Shousher, speaking in terms of local relations, says it is not so much modernizing as it is continuing to work on what is there.
Further understanding
Summing up 1,300 years of history into one article is an impossible task, but this overview of Toledo-based Islamic culture is our attempt to bridge the communication gap towards this oft-misunderstood and misrepresented religion. For more information, visit these Web sites and resources:
www.Islamicpluralism.orgwww.fatwa-online.com/aboutislaam
Books:
• The Wahhabi Myth, second edition, by H.J. Oliver
• What’s Right with Islam: a new vision for Muslims and the West, by Feisal Abdul Rauf
Read the whole article than leave your remarks.
Great article, I wish there were some more easily digestible version to get alot of this info into mainstream America.
One of my best friends is Palestinian, so I have heard most of this before just in conversation, but it is still crazy to think that most of America's problems right now stem from the decision made after WWII to give Israel to the Jews.
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Imam Aboelzahab wants only to be shown where "one Muslim country invaded another… We’re invaded by mainly Christian countries."
Didn't Iraq (certainly a muslim country) invade Kuwait, leading to our first romp in the sandbox?
"I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where
they're going and hook up with them later." RIP Mitch Hedberg
^^ yeah and Iraq and Iran had a war that lasted how-long?
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"Truth is: most religious people are ignorant worshippers."
THANK YOU
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^^^^^ Word ^^^^^
"I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where
they're going and hook up with them later." RIP Mitch Hedberg
couch couch,,, catholics,, cough cough
"I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where
they're going and hook up with them later." RIP Mitch Hedberg
^^srry if I offend any catholics,, as I know some are ok,,, but the ones I grew up with were the tunnel vision, blinders on, kinda ignorant worshippers this man was talking about
"I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where
they're going and hook up with them later." RIP Mitch Hedberg
and I juts reliazed I kant speil couch, < I am teh tard
EDIT button will be sooooooooooo nice
"I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where
they're going and hook up with them later." RIP Mitch Hedberg
I know Presbyterians, Catholics, Baptists, 7th Day Adventists, Mormons and Anglicans that are in the same place.
Worshipping God without knowing God is the same kind of adoration a broken animal gives it's keeper. It's fear more than anything.
It's one of the reasons I worry (and mentally subtract 30 IQ points from my original assessment) when someone proclaims themself a "God-fearing" person. It means they really have no concept of God or love to begin with.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Any Religion that believes it has a place in government is wrong, the two need to be seperate because when they come together you have tyranny and war, almost any major war on this planet thats ever been fought is reguarding a difference of religion, so keep your bible, koran, witchcraft brew, jewbook, whatever to yourself and know that what you believe to be true cant be proven any more right or wrong then what anyone else believes
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Rod: Actually wars are started for other reasons, and religion is dragged into the fray more often than not. Think Pat Robertson: calling for the assassination of a foriegn leader because that person would rather deal with China than with the USA. A religious leader has no business telling his flock about politics.
War comes down to 2 very simple things: Power and Possessions
In the case of Islam: There are so many poor, illiterate and ignorant people that they are easily led by those that seek power over them. An Imam with a large congregation, or better yet, a well placed Mofti with several Imam's with large and devout congregations, can vie for power in a region. If you have people that know no better, you will have people that will willingly die for whatever cause their leader says is just, regardless if it is with or against the spirit of the Qur'an, Bible, Torrah or whatever.
The people will drink the sand because they don't know any better.
Knowledge is power, and a lot of middle-eastern people are kept imbecile by poverty. If you want to fix the situation, make sure that people can eat clean food, drink clean water, and sleep in a place that is able to give them shelter. Once you take care of the material needs of the people, you'll see that it's a fertile environment for peace to grow in. Once you eliminate want of things to keep yourself and family alive, you'll see that knowledge will satisfy your need for personal power.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
Most non-Religious persons are ignorant of the religion.
"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."
Chamillionaire wrote:Most non-Religious persons are ignorant of the religion.
Sadly so are most of the "religious people." What GAM said above about the real cause of even "holy wars" is true - power is the real reason but religion is used as a scapegoat to go to war. However, if the "religious people" weren't so damn ignorant of their own religion - then no one would be able to manipulate them into fighting in a "holy war" etc, or any war for that matter.
Knowledge is power. In this world, those without power are doomed to be the pawns of those with power. Stay in school kids
I've never heard of this "part throttle" before. Does it just bolt on?
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Knowledge is power. In this world, those without power are doomed to be the pawns of those with power. Stay in school kids
In my opinion its a fallacy of equivocation:
Power tends to corrupt
Knowledge is power
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Therefore, knowledge tends to corrupt!
Alot of people on the org. are mentioning that people are ignorant towards their beliefs, in other words they believe what ever they hear. In my opinion, people are raised in families who are very religious irrespective of their beliefs, and have found no need to look into their "religious" education because they ve been pumped with so much trust and info from their own parents. I was like that through childhood, but ever since, I have began to look outside and breath plausible facts (Im not gonna turn this into a "is god really there" response, nor am I implying that Im an athiest).
Although we speak about ignornace, that article is trying to explain the real "deal" about Islam which is often overlooked by many worldwide due to a heap of blinded ignornace.
The way the world works through my eyes is very systematic. Some people are made leaders, while others are made followers....but if all became leaders...CHAOS! The boureougios will never overpower the proleteriat!
I meant....the proleteriat will never overpower the bourgeois!
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:It's one of the reasons I worry (and mentally subtract 30 IQ points from my original assessment) when someone proclaims themself a "God-fearing" person. It means they really have no concept of God or love to begin with.
You have the whole idea wrong though.
It's not a fear, as in the same vein as how a dog would fear an owner who beats him.
It's a fear of not being able to please your God in the way you wish you could. It's a fear of being eternally separated from your creator when you have reached a physical death. It's a fear of sinning without repentance.
Most people should not fear God because he can simply strike a finger down and kill you in an instant. To me it's more of a "things that can happen to me if I sin" fear.
Everybody has their own concept on what God and love is. There is no set rule so what you are saying is incorrect, because nobody has a TRUE concept of the latter.
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his is why the world hates the middle-eastern originated religions. They actually are peaceful religions, but human nature tends to look at the bad rather than the good in things.
Mike im glad you know this, many...and I mean alot of people are dogmatists, and would rather not accept the truth. They would ignore anything that would make middle eastern people look normal!
Mikedirntrulez wrote:GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:It's one of the reasons I worry (and mentally subtract 30 IQ points from my original assessment) when someone proclaims themself a "God-fearing" person. It means they really have no concept of God or love to begin with.
You have the whole idea wrong though.
It's not a fear, as in the same vein as how a dog would fear an owner who beats him.
It's a fear of not being able to please your God in the way you wish you could. It's a fear of being eternally separated from your creator when you have reached a physical death. It's a fear of sinning without repentance.
Most people should not fear God because he can simply strike a finger down and kill you in an instant. To me it's more of a "things that can happen to me if I sin" fear.
Everybody has their own concept on what God and love is. There is no set rule so what you are saying is incorrect, because nobody has a TRUE concept of the latter.
I would think that if one truly understood themselves and more or less understood God, they'd eliminate the fear aspect because they would know by instinct what is right and wrong, and would have not problems abiding their moral compass. At that point, they're not acting on hubris and have no need to worry about doing something wrong. You and I both know what is right and wrong... we know because societal norms dictate that we work together to try and resolve differences, support one another if something happens and there is a loss, etc. This isn't simply because God instructed us on this, it's the same kind of behviour we see in social animals. When one of the flock gets out of line, the flock will regulate the deviate's behaviour.
When I talk about someone that is "God-fearing" I mean simply that they usually admit quite candidly that they do not know God, and that they FEAR him. I liken it to reading the old testament a little too often and not interjecting a tempering dose of allegory into it. Why do I say this? Mainly because the Old Testament details how God would prefer you to sacrifice a bull and burn it because the aroma pleases him... or how you are justified in smiting thy neighbour for offences... the new testament basically boilled down to 2 easily remembered rules: Love thy God, Love thy Neighbour as thyself. Simple.
We don't need Dante's Inferno to tell us that if we do evil, we're going to hell, and in the same hand, if we follow those 2 simple rules in the new testament, we needn't fear God at all, because we will be doing his word regardless.
Back on topic: Islam strikes me as very similar to Christianity and Judaism because of the linked principles... The differences seem to be in the interpretations... but I don't think God would want to you to come to blows over it.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:
When I talk about someone that is "God-fearing" I mean simply that they usually admit quite candidly that they do not know God, and that they FEAR him. I liken it to reading the old testament a little too often and not interjecting a tempering dose of allegory into it. Why do I say this? Mainly because the Old Testament details how God would prefer you to sacrifice a bull and burn it because the aroma pleases him... or how you are justified in smiting thy neighbour for offences... the new testament basically boilled down to 2 easily remembered rules: Love thy God, Love thy Neighbour as thyself. Simple.
We don't need Dante's Inferno to tell us that if we do evil, we're going to hell, and in the same hand, if we follow those 2 simple rules in the new testament, we needn't fear God at all, because we will be doing his word regardless.
Back on topic: Islam strikes me as very similar to Christianity and Judaism because of the linked principles... The differences seem to be in the interpretations... but I don't think God would want to you to come to blows over it.
I can understand what you mean, but even the most "holy of holies" sin. Priests, Bishops, everybody sins. Many people say they fear God because of what is unknown. Who knows that if you sin without repentance what will happen to you? Who knows if you don't repent if you could be alive tomorrow?
It's not wrong to fear God for the right reasons. I can agree that people that say they fear God just because they should aren't getting the right message. I think that is what you were trying to say, i'm all hopped up on sleeping pills right now and I should be getting to bed.
I know Christianity is loosely based on Judaism principles, and the whole scheme of Islam is the same, but the interpretations are definitely similar. That's the only way I see them as being the same. My friend had a copy of the Qur'an once, and I flipped through it loosely, and there is some interesting material inside of it, but nothing that really jumped out at me.
I think the whole idea is that you don't fear sinning because you don't set out to. I'm not trying to rationalise, but it's easier to avoid it than to repent immediately and make reparations... if you know its wrong, just don't do it in the first place.
I think fearing God is taking it the wrong way... I look at God as more of a teacher than a judge.
Christianity is odd, it's a lot of Judaic, and far-eastern dogma... I mean "turn the other cheek" is a Buddhist philosophy. Islam is closer to Jewish tradition than anything.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
