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Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 8:27 AM on j-body.org
Got this from another board (and i realize it's 5 years old)....whats your take on it?

Clinton has signed a bill passed by Congress that orders the states to adopt new, more onerous drunk-driving standards or face a loss of highway funds. That’s right the old highway extortion trick. Sure enough, states are already working to pass new, tighter laws against Driving Under the Influence, responding as expected to the feds’ ransom note.

Now the feds declare that a blood-alcohol level of 0.08 percent and above is criminal and must be severely punished. The National Restaurant Association is exactly right that this is absurdly low. The overwhelming majority of accidents related to drunk driving involve repeat offenders with blood-alcohol levels twice that high. If a standard of 0.1 doesn’t deter them, then a lower one won’t either.

But there’s a more fundamental point. What precisely is being criminalized? Not bad driving. Not destruction of property. Not the taking of human life or reckless endangerment. The crime is having the wrong substance in your blood. Yet it is possible, in fact, to have this substance in your blood, even while driving, and not commit anything like what has been traditionally called a crime.

What have we done by permitting government to criminalize the content of our blood instead of actions themselves? We have given it power to make the application of the law arbitrary, capricious, and contingent on the judgment of cops and cop technicians. Indeed, without the government’s "Breathalyzer," there is no way to tell for sure if we are breaking the law.

Sure, we can do informal calculations in our head, based on our weight and the amount of alcohol we have had over some period of time. But at best these will be estimates. We have to wait for the government to administer a test to tell us whether or not we are criminals. That’s not the way law is supposed to work. Indeed, this is a form of tyranny.

Now, the immediate response goes this way: drunk driving has to be illegal because the probability of causing an accident rises dramatically when you drink. The answer is just as simple: government in a free society should not deal in probabilities. The law should deal in actions and actions alone, and only insofar as they damage person or property. Probabilities are something for insurance companies to assess on a competitive and voluntary basis.

This is why the campaign against "racial profiling" has intuitive plausibility to many people: surely a person shouldn’t be hounded solely because some demographic groups have higher crime rates than others. Government should be preventing and punishing crimes themselves, not probabilities and propensities. Neither, then, should we have driver profiling, which assumes that just because a person has quaffed a few he is automatically a danger.

In fact, driver profiling is worse than racial profiling, because the latter only implies that the police are more watchful, not that they criminalize race itself. Despite the propaganda, what’s being criminalized in the case of drunk driving is not the probability that a person driving will get into an accident but the fact of the blood-alcohol content itself. A drunk driver is humiliated and destroyed even when he hasn’t done any harm.

Of course, enforcement is a serious problem. A sizeable number of people leaving a bar or a restaurant would probably qualify as DUI. But there is no way for the police to know unless they are tipped off by a swerving car or reckless driving in general. But the question becomes: why not ticket the swerving or recklessness and leave the alcohol out of it? Why indeed.

To underscore the fact that it is some level of drinking that is being criminalized, government sets up these outrageous, civil-liberties-violating barricades that stop people to check their blood – even when they have done nothing at all. This is a gross attack on liberty that implies that the government has and should have total control over us, extending even to the testing of intimate biological facts. But somehow we put up with it because we have conceded the first assumption that government ought to punish us for the content of our blood and not just our actions.

There are many factors that cause a person to drive poorly. You may have sore muscles after a weight-lifting session and have slow reactions. You could be sleepy. You could be in a bad mood, or angry after a fight with your spouse. Should the government be allowed to administer anger tests, tiredness tests, or soreness tests? That is the very next step, and don’t be surprised when Congress starts to examine this question.

Already, there’s a move on to prohibit cell phone use while driving. Such an absurdity follows from the idea that government should make judgments about what we are allegedly likely to do.

What’s more, some people drive more safely after a few drinks, precisely because they know their reaction time has been slowed and they must pay more attention to safety. We all know drunks who have an amazing ability to drive perfectly after being liquored up. They should be liberated from the force of the law, and only punished if they actually do something wrong.

We need to put a stop to this whole trend now. Drunk driving should be legalized. And please don’t write me to say: "I am offended by your insensitivity because my mother was killed by a drunk driver." Any person responsible for killing someone else is guilty of manslaughter or murder and should be punished accordingly. But it is perverse to punish a murderer not because of his crime but because of some biological consideration, e.g. he has red hair.

Bank robbers may tend to wear masks, but the crime they commit has nothing to do with the mask. In the same way, drunk drivers cause accidents but so do sober drivers, and many drunk drivers cause no accidents at all. The law should focus on violations of person and property, not scientific oddities like blood content.

There’s a final point against Clinton’s drunk-driving bill. It is a violation of states rights. Not only is there is no warrant in the Constitution for the federal government to legislate blood-alcohol content – the 10th amendment should prevent it from doing so. The question of drunk driving should first be returned to the states, and then each state should liberate drunk drivers from the force of the law.

November 3, 2000


by Lew Rockwell



don't like me? tell me what you think of me in chat

Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 8:41 AM on j-body.org
I think Lew is putting a little too fine a point on the issue...



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 9:36 AM on j-body.org
Consider it this way...be it inebriated or not, if you have some condition that prevents the safe operation of a vehicle, and you operate it anyway, yes, it is a crime. After all, driving is a priveledge, not a right.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 10:23 AM on j-body.org
Keeper I couldn't have said it better myself. Your not insured the right to drive in the constitution. If you want to drink then don't drive there is no excuse for it at all.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 10:24 AM on j-body.org
Ok for arguements sake why is driving a priveledge and not a right? Why cant a person without a divers license purchase a motor vehicle for private use on private property? If said person is able to afford the vehicle why should he not be allowed to buy it and drive it on his own land? What is the origination of laws around driving when were they formed? Where drivers licenses reqired when it was horse and buggy instead of the internal combustion engine? If not, why?

I see the authors point of view in this especially with check points. In reality what right do the law enforcement agencies have to create check points? Prior to 9/11 there was a reasonable cause aspect to protect us. Post 9/11 with the Homeland Security laws they no longer need to have a reason to pull you over other than they think that you might be doing something suspecious.

I wonder what would happen if someone were to try and fight a charge they recieved in one of those check points?

Drunk drivers are rarely caught unless there are actions to do so. If a person is leaves a bar and is driving perfectly normal there is no reason to pull him over. If you swerve or are driving wrecklessly then yes you need to be pulled over and issued a ticket regardless of why you are doing it.

Drunk driving laws are in place to provide a penalty for doing something we know is dangerous. If nobody was ever killed by a drunk driver those laws would not be in place. The penalties provided by the charges often deter people from making the mistake in the first place. I can see the authors point of view but feel he is taking it to the extreem.


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 10:38 AM on j-body.org
To try and answer them in order.

Sure you can buy and operate a vehicle on private property all you want if you have no
licence. Your licenced so you can operate it on public roads.

Since your operating a motor vehicle on the states roads and not your own personal roads then they have every right to set up check points and see if your drunk.

They'd lose.

Where I live there's a club called Malibu's Lakeside its on a relatively busy 2 lane road.
I have seen on more then one occasion a check point set up on either side of the bar just down the road beyond where you can see. The police use a trucking companies parking lot ( with permission I'm guessing ) to set it up. They block off the road and re-direct traffic into the lot, waiting there are tow trucks and a bus to haul off offenders to jail. They do this every couple months or so. Personally I think its an awesome idea.

Yet unfortunately even with these laws in place people still drink and drive. Could you imagine how bad it would be if it weren't illegal?




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 10:49 AM on j-body.org
Mike:

How will they get said vehicle to said "private property?" Further, how can the dealer be sure that they won't be on the tail end of legal action if they sell a vehicle to someone that doesn't have a license, even if they have a tow truck to take the car there, that they won't drive it on a public road, kill someone, and the relatives sue the @!#$ out of everyone, including the dealer.

For me, i just see it as a CYA thing. Most people selling their own cars rarely check.

But still, driving is a priveledge, not a right. if it were a right, then more people would be dead on the highways because of how many more @!#$tards would be on the road


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 11:12 AM on j-body.org
I seem to remember Drunk driving kills more people than gun accidents...

Interloc each car in order to get a plate renewal.

Yes, I'm kidding



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 11:30 AM on j-body.org
mike woolever wrote:Drunk drivers are rarely caught unless there are actions to do so. If a person is leaves a bar and is driving perfectly normal there is no reason to pull him over.
Drunk driving laws are in place to provide a penalty for doing something we know is dangerous. If nobody was ever killed by a drunk driver those laws would not be in place.


God damn, you're one dumb kid...I'm not sure if I completely understand what you are saying but.......wtf........


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 1:15 PM on j-body.org
Drunk Driving is stupid, and whomever wrote the article seems to not have had a good acquaintance with the laws as they stand.

Having too high a blood alcohol level (.08% alcohol/decilitre of blood is pretty damned tolerant if you ask me) while in public is called Drunk and disorderly Conduct or public nuisance.

The thing that is becoming interesting is that many states and the Canadian criminal codes are changing the "Drunk Driving" laws to Impaired Driving laws, which may seem superficial, but it opens up enforcement of a lot of other intoxicants (Opiates, Amphetamines, etc). That is legal, and that is a good thing.

As I said, the author of the article needs to get acquainted with the actual texts of the laws he's referring to, and not just go by supposition. The law as far as impairment are pretty straight forward, If a police officer conducts a field sobriety test (or decides to forego it in pursuit of a breathalizer or blood media intoxicant test), and wants to get a breath sample, they can do it. If inconveniencing you for a couple hours serves the public interest in safety, I can live with you or me getting stopped once in a while.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 2:38 PM on j-body.org
Glace wrote:
mike woolever wrote:Drunk drivers are rarely caught unless there are actions to do so. If a person is leaves a bar and is driving perfectly normal there is no reason to pull him over.
Drunk driving laws are in place to provide a penalty for doing something we know is dangerous. If nobody was ever killed by a drunk driver those laws would not be in place.


God damn, you're one dumb kid...I'm not sure if I completely understand what you are saying but.......wtf........


All I am saying is that there are wayyyyyyy more people driving drunk then are being caught. The reason being is because some of them can drive normal and have a BAC of .08. Legally they are DUI however their actions may not be impared. As far as the laws being created; the laws were created due to the results of the action. If the action were to never to have negative results then there would not be a law about it. If there were never and accident or death due to a drunk driver do you really believe there would be laws agianst it?


KOTL,

As to your comment about about the dealer being sued what liability would they have once the vehicle left the dealership. The dealer sold the vehicle to that person provided that it was for private use on private property. If you going to use that they could be sued what would then prevent someone from suing the dealer after a fatal car accident? Ultimately it is the dealer that sold that vehicle to the person.


I just making an arguement here especially with the dealer responsibility. The other comment I believe and would defend.



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 3:19 PM on j-body.org
/\ /\ /\ And there are waaaay more pedifiles out there then are getting caught but should we allow that as well? Thats a bad bad reason.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 3:22 PM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:/\ /\ /\ And there are waaaay more pedifiles out there then are getting caught but should we allow that as well? Thats a bad bad reason.


Tru dat.


______________________________________________________________
ToBoGgAn wrote:we are gonna take it in the ass and like it, cause thats what america does.

Slo2pt2 (Projekt Unknown?) wrote:One my SON is ADHD N.O.S and Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I will nto medicate him he will battle throught this himself and learn to control it.

Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 4:21 PM on j-body.org
Jackalope

No not at all my original post said that I believe in the laws. All I was saying is that nobody were ever hurt or any property damaged then why in this case would there be a law prohibiting it?


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 4:31 PM on j-body.org
nothin' is more fun than getting @!#$ faced, getting up to about 70mph on the highway and cutting the lights out



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 5:06 PM on j-body.org
/\ /\ /\ I know your kidding. Right?

Mike, I guess I mis-understood what you were saying. My bad. I was reading it as since there are so many people doing it why not just make it legal. I'm glad I misread.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 5:45 PM on j-body.org
Mike, you seriously don't believe some slimeball lawyer won't take a case like that? Really, in a world today where people can sue Cigarette companies because they get lung cancer, or sue McDonalds because their ass is falling out of their jeans, you don't think someone looking to make a quick buck would buy a car without a license from a dealership, and sue the pants off the dealer because it's *obvlously* the dealer's job to make sure that only people that are qualified to drive actually get cars? You know in this society they would jump on that in a heartbeat.

Still, i'm wondering what the smeg people have to complain about...using me as a guide (about 195lbs *and* a lightweight) it takes between 4 and 5 drinks before I break the limit--depending on what I'm drinking. At the other end of the spectrum, my g/f (who's about 135), yes, it would only take 3 to put her over the limit...But still, any idiot that would *knowingly* drive after nitting a state of inebration after 3-5 drinks shouldn't be driving at all--be it inebration or distraction (yes, i'd love to kill all the @!#$tards that talk on a cellphone while driving without a hands free kit...)


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 6:06 PM on j-body.org
LOL no I know some slimeball lawyer would take that case in a heartbeat... There is no debating that. I wish it werent true.... I am just wondering when someone is going to sue a car company when the crash their car at 120 mph and kill someone because the car shouldnt be made to go that fast because its not safe.

I live in NYS and it is illegal for you to drive while on your cell phone however it happens all the time. Almost every day I someone is swerving into my lane while I am on the highway. As I drive by they are on the phone or putting on make up or reading a f#$#ing map


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Monday, November 07, 2005 7:47 PM on j-body.org
^^^ Apparently missed the whole Ford Exploder ordeal.

As for the other things, if a cop enforces the law, you're screwed.




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Tuesday, November 08, 2005 4:35 AM on j-body.org
Jackalope wrote:/\ /\ /\ I know your kidding. Right?

Mike, I guess I mis-understood what you were saying. My bad. I was reading it as since there are so many people doing it why not just make it legal. I'm glad I misread.


lol yes i was kidding. im not that dumb to drink and drive



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Tuesday, November 08, 2005 7:19 AM on j-body.org
i ddnt read any of it but i just have this to say.


I will legalize drunk driving IF we outlaw idiot driving. ergo drunk driving is still illegal CAUSE YOUR AN IDIOT!







Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Thursday, November 10, 2005 11:20 PM on j-body.org
Probably a Good idea to RTFP Emor8t




Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Friday, November 11, 2005 10:57 AM on j-body.org
"The crime is having the wrong substance in your blood."
anyone smell a conspiracy theory.

Perhaps if a license cost $500.00 like it did in germany and cars didn't come with cup holders we'd realize how fortunate we are.

If I'm feeling lit, I don't drive, I get a glass of water, something to eat, and chill till the effects subside. Typically I don't drink that much because the I don't like the feeling of not being able to utilize my car when I want to.

The fact is that alcohol impairs your ability to operate a motor vehicle in a safe manner.



-Chris

Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Friday, November 11, 2005 6:52 PM on j-body.org
[quote=ßãggéÐÇåv98 (Ûñqùðtäߣè Øñé)]nothin' is more fun than getting @!#$ faced, getting up to about 70mph on the highway and cutting the lights out


lmfao



Re: Legalize Drunk Driving?
Saturday, November 12, 2005 6:57 AM on j-body.org
IamRascal wrote:Perhaps if a license cost $500.00 like it did in germany and cars didn't come with cup holders we'd realize how fortunate we are.


There's a LOT more to driving in Germany than just the cost of the License. The TUV driver-training programme is superlative. If you look at Young Drivers' (or Young Driver's of America) curriculum, that's very, very close to what they teach, and you can't go to a mickey mouse Ma & Pa Driving school either... it's government run, if you fail your test 2x in a year, you're not allowed to take the test for another 2 years, if you move to France or Italy, for a year or whatever, you have to take the course all over again, and if you fail, I think you're screwed for 5 years.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.


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