http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/09/14/pledge.ruling.ap/index.html

California's dumbass 9th Circuit Court strikes again...man I can't wait to watch O'Reilly tonight


SAN FRANCISCO, California (AP) -- A federal judge declared the reciting of the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools unconstitutional Wednesday in a case brought by the same atheist whose previous battle against the words "under God" was rejected by the U.S. Supreme Court on procedural grounds.

U.S. District Judge Lawrence Karlton ruled that the pledge's reference to one nation "under God" violates school children's right to be "free from a coercive requirement to affirm God."

Karlton said he was bound by precedent of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, which in 2002 ruled in favor of Sacramento atheist Michael Newdow that the pledge is unconstitutional when recited in public schools.

The Supreme Court dismissed the case last year, saying Newdow lacked standing because he did not have custody of his elementary school daughter he sued on behalf of.

Newdow, an attorney and a medical doctor, filed an identical case on behalf of three unnamed parents and their children. Karlton said those families have the right to sue.

Karlton, ruling in Sacramento, said he would sign a restraining order preventing the recitation of the pledge at the Elk Grove Unified, Rio Linda and Elverta Joint Elementary school districts in Sacramento County, where the plaintiffs' children attend.

The order would not extend beyond those districts unless it is affirmed by a higher court, in which case it would apply to nine western states.

The decision sets up another showdown over the pledge in schools, at a time when the makeup of the Supreme Court is in flux.

Wednesday's ruling comes as Supreme Court nominee John Roberts faces day three of his confirmation hearings before the Senate Judiciary Committee. He would succeed the late William H. Rehnquist as chief justice.

In July, Sandra Day O'Connor announced her plans to retire when a successor is confirmed.

The Becket Fund, a religious rights group that is a party to the case, said it would immediately appeal the case to the San Francisco-based 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. If the court does not change its precedent, the group would go to the Supreme Court.

"It's a way to get this issue to the Supreme Court for a final decision to be made," said fund attorney Jared Leland.

The decisions by Karlton and the 9th Circuit conflict with an August opinion by the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond, Virginia. That court upheld a Virginia law requiring public schools lead daily Pledge of Allegiance recitation, which is similar to the requirement in California.

A three-judge panel of that circuit ruled that the pledge is a patriotic exercise, not a religious affirmation similar to a prayer.

"Undoubtedly, the pledge contains a religious phrase, and it is demeaning to persons of any faith to assert that the words 'under God' contain no religious significance," Judge Karen Williams wrote for the 4th Circuit. "The inclusion of those two words, however, does not alter the nature of the pledge as a patriotic activity."

Newdow, reached at his home, was not immediately prepared to comment.

Karlton, appointed to the Sacramento bench in 1979 by President Carter, wrote that the case concerned "the ongoing struggle as to the role of religion in the civil life of this nation" and added that his opinion "will satisfy no one involved in that debate."

Karlton dismissed claims that the 1954 congressional legislation inserting the words "under God" was unconstitutional. If his ruling stands, he reasoned that the school children and their parents in the case would not be harmed by the phrase because they would no longer have to recite it at school.

Terence Cassidy, a lawyer representing the school districts, said he was reviewing the opinion and was not immediately prepared to comment



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im a @!#$ pussy ass liar! i lied to my girlfriend over and over, sat around with her friends naked and stayed home downloading porn...she loved me and i hurt her...i deserve to be alone and unhappy...no wonder every girl i try to love leaves me...i suck.

God damn son of a bitch................................
Wait ..............................................................



I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

above is from 1954
below is from 1892

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.






PRND321 Till I DIE
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M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO

i get sick of dumb nuts like this........so it says God. why do they have to complain about everything?? gaaaaaaaa!!!!! ill come back when im not so pissed.

While I stand behind the reasoning of why this is brought up (violates the estabishment clause), the simplest solution will never come to fruitation because neither side of the debate is willing to give an inch.

That solution: Make the "under god" line optional. you can say it if you want, but you don't have to.

bam! problem solved!


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

[quote=Keeper of the Light™]While I stand behind the reasoning of why this is brought up (violates the estabishment clause), the simplest solution will never come to fruitation because neither side of the debate is willing to give an inch.

That solution: Make the "under god" line optional. you can say it if you want, but you don't have to.

bam! problem solved!

The thing is, in CA it IS optional. But since most kids choose to say it, that's enough "coercive" for the court.


---

If people are so worried about the "Under God" part then they must hate getting any money. Isn't there something on some kind of money that says "in god we trust" Guess we'll have to change that too. All this is is nothing more then politicly correctness at its worst. If the phrase "Under God" is sooo offensive then I guess they find it equally offensive to have Christmas or Easter or the Jewish holidays that I cant spell and have off from school. Maybe these people should just be given there own schools so they dont have to suffer thru any offensive religious school closeings either. Next thing on the list.... No more Christmas lights there offensive too and show publicly that you have religious beliefs and that could be seen as an attempt on your part to force your beliefs on others.

Oh wait a minute........isn't them forceing there NON-beliefs on us just as offensive?
I do believe it is. I think I remember something about yes you do have your rights but NOT when your rights interferrs with the rights of others. If the kids don't like it they don't have to say it . Or we could just put it back to how the pledge originaly was.






Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

Well, wether it's unpopular or not, the phrase,"under god," using current doctrine from the U.S. Constitution, is, in fact, unconstitutional. Now, even with me being non-religious, I could care less what the pledge says. Wether "under god" is in the pledge or not, I don't care. But if I were being FORCED to say it, I'll come out with both arms swinging.






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so what if you are forced to say it, dont really mean anything anyway



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85

Roofy wrote:Well, wether it's unpopular or not, the phrase,"under god," using current doctrine from the U.S. Constitution, is, in fact, unconstitutional. Now, even with me being non-religious, I could care less what the pledge says. Wether "under god" is in the pledge or not, I don't care. But if I were being FORCED to say it, I'll come out with both arms swinging.

I have yet to see a LAW made that respects a particular religion or lack thereof. It is not unconstitutional from the original doctrine, which should've been adhered to in the first place.


"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."

Actually, it does violate the estabishment clause when used in the setting of a public school. It shows a precedent for any religion that addresses as deity as "God".

However, My personal mindset is "everyone must tolerate even if it pissesd them off" rather than "worry about which mewling pantywaist we're offending today."

Now, Agustin somewhat hit the nail on the head--even if it was optional, it could be constrrued as coersion if the person feels compelled to say it. To me, the dividing line is WHO is compelling the child to say it. Peer pressure from his/her classmates? Looks like the parents need to teach the kid about self-esteem and standing up for their rights. HOWEVER, if the TEACHER or other school official makes the student say it (happened to me), then it is violating the estabishment clause.

I will say, though that i disagree with the reasons why it was added in the 50's (my dad remebers this)--basically anti-communist propoganda (which, McCarthy was as anti-american by the textbook definition as you can get, but I digress).

Still, the line should be optional, as it was never an original part of the pledge of alegiance. I don't mind a christian saying it, or saying it in front of me (It's not going to make me lose my faith at all by hearing the word "God"), but under the same context, Me, a pagan-derivative, who doesn't believe in God, should have to say it (it's like a christian swearing to Freja or Shen-I--an empty oath). And if by not saying it, you feel that it infringes on your beliefs, of makes you feel less of your chosen dogma, the problem is you, not me.

And as for the money, yes, that is a violation as well, however, I think as paper/coinage starts to go by the wayside it won't be much of an issue anymore.


Goodbye Callisto & Skaði, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.

Rodimus Prime wrote:so what if you are forced to say it, dont really mean anything anyway

Being forced to say it would definately violate the separation of church and state, but only in certain circumstances. If it were a forced action from a government official, or any sublet thereof (I.E. teacher, school employee, authority figure in any governmental organization) then it would be illegal. If it were a forced action in a circumstance such as, say, a mother makes her bratty 7 year old pledge allegiance at a baseball game, then it's not illegal.




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To expand, it's a slippery slope from being made to SAY or DO something against your will to being forced to do other things against your will without due cause or process.

You're granted freedom of religion in the first ammendment. You are also granted the freedom of no religion.



Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.

CavFire.com (tabasco) wrote:i get sick of dumb nuts like this........so it says God. why do they have to complain about everything?? gaaaaaaaa!!!!! ill come back when im not so pissed.

becase, for those of us who don't beleive in god, its offensive to be forced to say it

when i was in school, if you were caught not saying the pledge, in its entirety you would get in trouble, i always hated saying "under god" becasue i don't belevie this is one nation under god indivisible, "under god" should be removed, besides the old pledge sounds better

this country needs to realize that not everyone belevies in god.


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

jackalope ( a.k.a. the prick ) wrote:If people are so worried about the "Under God" part then they must hate getting any money. Isn't there something on some kind of money that says "in god we trust" Guess we'll have to change that too. All this is is nothing more then politicly correctness at its worst. If the phrase "Under God" is sooo offensive then I guess they find it equally offensive to have Christmas or Easter or the Jewish holidays that I cant spell and have off from school. Maybe these people should just be given there own schools so they dont have to suffer thru any offensive religious school closeings either. Next thing on the list.... No more Christmas lights there offensive too and show publicly that you have religious beliefs and that could be seen as an attempt on your part to force your beliefs on others.

Oh wait a minute........isn't them forceing there NON-beliefs on us just as offensive?
I do believe it is. I think I remember something about yes you do have your rights but NOT when your rights interferrs with the rights of others. If the kids don't like it they don't have to say it . Or we could just put it back to how the pledge originaly was.

actually i think that "in god we trust" should be taken out of money, not everyone who uses money trusts "god" and showing your beleifs is fine, just don't press them on me. like when a jehovas witness comes to my door, i answer it, and when they shove that crap in my face i tell them politely to leave before i call the police.

and like i said, in my school, you HAD to say the pledge, or face diciplinary action, i always hated tha because i knew it was wrong to force me to say something i don't beleive in

and for the holiday thing, i could care less if religious holidays were remvoed, but the other ones like memorial day and veterans day definatley should stay


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

As far as I can remember, there has never been one case where a teacher has forced a child to say anything. And I'm sure if they had, then they were probably reprimaned for forcing a child to do anything.

As for the whole seperation of church and state, it's not in the constution. And I hate people who are stupid to try to say that seperation of church and state is in the constution of the US, hell, it was one of the building blocks of the document. The only reason they (whiney lite ^(%#)@'s) like to complain and get heard and get their 15 min of fame.

They use it becuase the puritan group's that left england left becuase the Church of England was persecuting them, so instead of fighting for their beliefs they left, settled in the new world and then later persecuted all other people of other religions, not to mention forcing their religion on the natives of the land.

Stupid effing puritians....

Ok someone show me where in the constition there says seperation of church and state. I got $50.00 says you can't. Becasue it does not say anywhere in the constitution of the United States of America that there should be a seperation of church and state. Its a quote from a letter penned by Thomas Jefferson to the constitutional congress in where he says there should be no state sponcered religion and that people should be free to worship God in there own way without the interference of any kind of a state prefered religion. As a matter of fact in the constitution It refeers to the great creator no less then 5 times. So I guess we should ban the constitution in schools as well huh? God has always been very heavily mentioned / involved with the govenment of this country since its inception and split from England. Before EVERY meeting of the senate and congress a prayer is read. Most of your powerful people belonged to or still do belong to a groop called the free masons. some call them a cult allmost but truth be told they are a VERY religious group and they have held at one time or another every single high postition in this country. So its no wonder why God is so previlant in our govt. And regardless of how many atheists kick and scream it all boils down to majority rule in our counrty. And right or wrong the majority DOES in one form or another believe in God. And so what if it offends you to have the pledge say "under God " It offends ME equaly that the thought that it be removed.

If anyone DOES actualy find in the U S Constitution where it says seperation of church and state I'll have your $50.00 waiting to mail to you. But if you can't find it then just E-mail me for my address so you can send me my $50.00.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

mikec2003 wrote:

CavFire.com (tabasco) wrote:i get sick of dumb nuts like this........so it says God. why do they have to complain about everything?? gaaaaaaaa!!!!! ill come back when im not so pissed.

becase, for those of us who don't beleive in god, its offensive to be forced to say it

when i was in school, if you were caught not saying the pledge, in its entirety you would get in trouble, i always hated saying "under god" becasue i don't belevie this is one nation under god indivisible, "under god" should be removed, besides the old pledge sounds better

this country needs to realize that not everyone belevies in god.

you dont believe in God? then dont say it!! i doubt that any teacher MADE you say "in God" while saying the pledge. they may have told you that you had to say the pledge...but i dont see why you couldnt have left that part out. lip synch it. dont like that suggestion? then say "i dont believe in your god". the teacher would never have any idea what you were saying.

the problem i have with this is as follows: i am SICK of people (usually a very small minority) constantly complaining "oh my feelings have been hurt because i saw the 10 commandments in a court house" or "boo hoo....my quarter says "in God we trust". honestly.......what is the big deal??? ignore it! leave it alone! STOP COMPLAINING!!! the incessant whining is what i find soooo annoying. if it doesnt offend the majority of people, then leave it. i really dont see how you can say that by saying "in God we trust" it somehow gives any certain religion any extra advantage. "GOD" can mean more than just the Christian God. the word god means ANY higher being. it can mean anything that you put your trust in. whats the problem there?

/\ /\ /\ Well said.





Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

You know ALL women believe in God right? Well I've never heard one that at one time in her life didn't scream out "Oh God!!! "

I've never heard anyone ever scream "Darwin" or "Nothing" nope its ALLWAYS

" OH GOD !! " And how many athesists take offence to this and get up because they're beliefs have been challenged? None I'd venture to say. None at all.




Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

(copied this version to not offend the masses)

Now, ship those COMMIES off to Cuba where they HAVE to kiss Castro's wrinkly old arse, then when they want to pledge their ALLEGIANCE to the country they lived in (which immigrants do every day to become citizens) they can be told to GET BACK ON THE RAFT WITH THE 50 OTHER PEOPLE AND RETURN LEGALLY!!!!

I mean MY GOD!!!!! it's saying you will stand up for your country and represent it as best as you can. because it's OUR COUNTRY!!!! if you can't say you will be an American till you die, then SEE YA!!!

jackalope wrote:If anyone DOES actualy find in the U S Constitution where it says seperation of church and state I'll have your $50.00 waiting to mail to you.

1st Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

In this effect Congress, (or The State) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or in other words, they choose to view religion as seperate and entirely disassociated with it'sself, allthewhile, not prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Essentially, Congress is aknowledging that religion exists, but that it will have no part in Congress (Or state, government, ect.) Hence the shortened and simpler phrase commonly referred to as "Seperation of Church and State" wherein "Church" defines religion.

Now, are you gonna cough up the dough, or are you going to settle into the semantics and back out???





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CavFire.com (tabasco) wrote:

you dont believe in God? then dont say it!! i doubt that any teacher MADE you say "in God" while saying the pledge. they may have told you that you had to say the pledge...but i dont see why you couldnt have left that part out. lip synch it. dont like that suggestion? then say "i dont believe in your god". the teacher would never have any idea what you were saying.

the problem i have with this is as follows: i am SICK of people (usually a very small minority) constantly complaining "oh my feelings have been hurt because i saw the 10 commandments in a court house" or "boo hoo....my quarter says "in God we trust". honestly.......what is the big deal??? ignore it! leave it alone! STOP COMPLAINING!!! the incessant whining is what i find soooo annoying. if it doesnt offend the majority of people, then leave it. i really dont see how you can say that by saying "in God we trust" it somehow gives any certain religion any extra advantage. "GOD" can mean more than just the Christian God. the word god means ANY higher being. it can mean anything that you put your trust in. whats the problem there?

like i said in my school, if a teacher caught you not saying the pledge in its entireity, you would face disiplinary actions. so we HAD to say the pledge, including the parts we didnt belevie in

and as far as the money, i was just saying that whe Under God comes out of the pledge........it won't stop there, you know money will be next. i mean, i don't like the text on the money, but it would be too costly to remove it so its something i can live with, however removing under god from the pledge doesn't cost much, so that is a very easy solution


You'll never touch God's hand
You'll never taste God's breath
Because you'll never see the second coming
Life's too short to be focused on insanity
I've seen the ways of God
I'll take the devil any day
Hail Satan

(slayer, skeleton christ, 2006)

Roofy wrote:

jackalope wrote:If anyone DOES actualy find in the U S Constitution where it says seperation of church and state I'll have your $50.00 waiting to mail to you.

1st Amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

In this effect Congress, (or The State) shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or in other words, they choose to view religion as seperate and entirely disassociated with it'sself, allthewhile, not prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

Essentially, Congress is aknowledging that religion exists, but that it will have no part in Congress (Or state, government, ect.) Hence the shortened and simpler phrase commonly referred to as "Seperation of Church and State" wherein "Church" defines religion.

Now, are you gonna cough up the dough, or are you going to settle into the semantics and back out???

NO ROOFY! The First Amendment restricted Federal Congress only. It also prevented the Federal Congress from intruding on the States rights to establish religion if they chose. Now, most states have a Establishment Clause that's even more strict than the Federal so that's where a snag could develop, but it shouldn't be from the Federal Clause.



"Speak the truth, and leave immediately after"
"The urge to save Humanity is almost ALWAYS a false front for the urge to rule"
"He who knoweth things as they are and not as they are said or seem to be, he truly is wise, and is taught of God more than of men."

Bottom line for me, even as a Christian, is I don't really care what the outcome of this is. It changes nothing for me.

I don't want people saying they believe in God if they don't. The Bible teaches thats people should come to God willingly. Coerced, forced, etc proclamations to God do no one any good.

I don't know why people fight so hard to get Ten Commandments and the like on Federal property. Who cares? So many more places to put it. Hey, put it on your own grass! Want to say God in the pledge alliegance? Then say it. Who cares? Want to pray before your football team takes the field? Pray then! Who cares?!?




---

AGuSTiN wrote:Bottom line for me, even as a Christian, is I don't really care what the outcome of this is. It changes nothing for me.

I don't want people saying they believe in God if they don't. The Bible teaches thats people should come to God willingly. Coerced, forced, etc proclamations to God do no one any good.

I don't know why people fight so hard to get Ten Commandments and the like on Federal property. Who cares? So many more places to put it. Hey, put it on your own grass! Want to say God in the pledge alliegance? Then say it. Who cares? Want to pray before your football team takes the field? Pray then! Who cares?!?

The end is near my friend, the end is near.