I think this whole "let's be quiet and not tell anyone how to disable the governor on our cars" is a little ridiculous. You can't say it's a legal thing because half the mods explained on this site aren't street legal. Talking about all the racing isn't legal. Plus, what's the difference with him going 105mph or 120mph? Either way the end result will be the same if there's an accident. Going 90mph really isn't safe either so why does everyone only say you don't need to go over 105mph when they should be saying you don't need to be going over the speedlimit? I just find it a little ironic. The majority of the stuff here is illegal and very dangerous. A kid installing a nitrous kit and using at every single stoplight isn't very safe. Same as bolting on a turbo, what do you think they are going to do with that extra speed? Go faster.
I don't think anyone should be going 105mph on US streets/highways, so don't get it twisted. I just think that forbiding the talk of the governor issue is hypocritical. If you're going to censor the talk of one dangerous/illegal thing, you should censor all of it. I know I'm going to get flamed and what not from most of you, but I don't care. This is my view. Oh by the way, I was the first one to install a VSS bypass switch on a 4T40E back in early 2000 and to have it function correctly. So I do know what I'm talking about.
Is that a...a...a... a Cavalier?
I don't think it should be censored but it is a bad idea.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
i say i have to agree. where do you draw the line with censorship? however this isnt my site, its dave's and as such its his choice what to include or censor. i am pretty sure that we dont have a first amendment right while visiting here
well alot of the mods lock the posts when its even asked...
and since dave gave the mods the power to lock post and or censor who or whatever, that pretty much sums it up...
from what i remember a while back, it was purposefully started to lock the posts to resolve liability from idiots doing stupid stuff....
eatsvtec, thats not directed to you, however there are some on this site that think they are mario andretti on the road and their cut spring cavalier or sh** ebay coiled sunfire handles like an indy car...
if anyone remembers "the unseen cavaliers" from here in md, who set the house fires.... the minute they stated they were a car club, what was all over LOCAL news in MD.... pictures and screen shots of JBO....
bad publicity.
same goes with other things people can be liable for. dave has atleast tried to make this one of the more respectable sites with cars.
and for the record, since people still email me asking to change, lock, ban people... i have not been nor ever wanted to be a mod.
I agree with you Event on people not being able to drive. Being over here in Italy for the past year, it's become blatantly obvious that 99% of Americans can't drive. Here there are speedlimits, stop signs, and stop lights, but for the most part they are all ignored. The only time I stop at a stop sign is if traffic is coming. Speed limits are a joke. The speed limit in most parts are 40-50kph, but you easily do 100kph while passing cops in a no passing zone. The funny thing is I have yet to see an accident. In the states, you would have massive casualties. So I do think the governor is a good idea, I just think it should have been a lot lower to actually do some good. People are going to still be hitting the governor at 105 or so what's really the difference with them going 5-10mph faster? I really never had a point I was trying to make with the post and I know it would probably cause a bitchfest so I posted it here. I was just curious as to other peoples' opinions on this. I think for the sake of disagreeing we can all agree that doing 105mph on the street is 9 out 10 times very dangerous.
Is that a...a...a... a Cavalier?
putting a turbocharger on a car will get it to the speed limiter quicker, but it won't get you past it. so in once sense, yes, a turbocharger is dangerous, but as long as your top speed is limited, it's not as dangerous. putting a turbo on a car to get to 75 mph quicker and disabling the speed limiter are two completely different levels of dangerous. installing nitrous with the intent of using it at a track, and with the intent of using it at every stop light can't easily be differentiated here on the site. so the intent of using nitrous can vary. those people whos cars can trap at faster than 108 at the track usually already have enough knowledge to disable the governor and don't need to discuss it here on the site. someone who doesn't have enough knowledge already is far more likely to use the disabled governor on public roads. so the intent of discussing it in the forums is probably to use it on an open highway, which is just stupid. hence the reason we step in and stop the discussion.
yes, we can say it's a legal thing. just because half of the mods on this site are illegal, that doesn't make them nearly as deadly as removing the speed limiter. if somebody gets a ticket for shaving their inner tail lights and having no reverse lights, their parents aren't going to try suing the JBO. however, if they remove the governor and kill themselves, chances are very good that a lawsuit can happen.
as far as censoring illegal mods, that comes down to discretion. Davee does not want posts on how to remove the limiter, so they get removed. the rest (at least for now) stay. if Dave decides that any other modifications should not be discussed on his site, he may use his discretion and disallow those posts as well. talking about racing isn't all illegal. racing at a track is perfectly legal. however, the rest of the crap (most of which is complete bs) is usually talked about after the fact, and can only incriminate the parties involved in the race, not the JBO.
and it's not hypocritical. hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing the opposite. Dave, the other mods and i aren't disabling our speed limiters, driving 120+ mph and then telling you not to do it. it was a decision that was made in the best interest of everybody, yourself included. the less discussion there is about such a mod, the less likely someone who doesn't know better will find out about it. and if that information is not obtained from this site, the JBO cannot be held liable for a death or injury because of it.
Remember that the difference bewteen 108MPH and 115 isn't much but it is enough to blow an H rated tire. Since J-bodies come with H rated tires, the limiter is set at the fastest sustainable speed those tires can handle. There's a difference between a mod that makes a car faster as opposed to one that makes a car quicker. Top speed is the problem, not how fast you get there. A turbo will not automaticly cause a problem, removing the speed limiter would allow the uninformed to cruise at a speed that is unsafe for their tires. Chances are if they can't figure out how to remove the limiter themselves they also don't know enough to buy better tires. Recipe for disaster.
I don't blame anyone for keeping such an inherit danger out of the hands of newbys.
If ya want top speed, either do you research or buy a car that was designed for it in the first place. Removing the limiter will not make a j-body much faster but it will make it much more dangerous. 1/4 mile times will remain unaffected.
PAX
Hahahaha wrote:Remember that the difference bewteen 108MPH and 115 isn't much but it is enough to blow an H rated tire. Since J-bodies come with H rated tires, the limiter is set at the fastest sustainable speed those tires can handle. There's a difference between a mod that makes a car faster as opposed to one that makes a car quicker. Top speed is the problem, not how fast you get there. A turbo will not automaticly cause a problem, removing the speed limiter would allow the uninformed to cruise at a speed that is unsafe for their tires. Chances are if they can't figure out how to remove the limiter themselves they also don't know enough to buy better tires. Recipe for disaster.
I'm going to say you hit the head on the nail for the speed limiters reasoning. Although I'm also going to agree with the fact the 90 mph or 105 mph isn't going to be much worse then horrible to begin with. But for everyone that does do the mod, and knows what there doing and how to drive, power to ya.
Exent put it the best. Dave does not want JBO to be lieable for some 16 kid thinking he or she can drive getting into an accident and killing people because of directions on how to dis-able a safty device put in place by the auto manufacturer. It would be opening up a HUGE can of worms and in the end is just not worth it.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
The sad thing is that the supposed 16 yr old kid's parents don't have the parenting skills to figure out what their kid is doing to his/her car.
There is no such thing as dangerous knowledge, there's dangerous idiots though... lots of them.
The problem is that people are holding the people that have the information liable for what the idiots are doing.
Transeat In Exemplum: Let this stand as the example.
let them kill themselves it will sort out
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
H rated tires are good to 130 mph, however, the rest of the suspension and the brakes are not safe past the 108 mph limiter.
Now I agree that someone who is asking on how to by-pass the speed limiter lacks the knowledge to realize that they need to perform more mods to make the vehicle able to sustain speeds higher then the limiter.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
If you really want to know it's not hard to find out...but it's not by asking peeps here..they'd rather not have your death on their concious...
It's a four banger, you gotta bang it four times to get it goin'....
Its not allowed because with greater speed the risk of a crash and the crash thereof being fatal multiplies dramatically. You have no idea the difference in the power of a crash at 90 and a crash at 120, it is unbelieveable. Especially since most people on here are just kids that have no idea how to handle that speed but they think they do.
Let me refer you to this
Educate Yourself
Have a nice day.
____________________________________________________________________
Madjack wrote:Like I said before, building an engine like ours (2.2 or 2200) is a painstaking chore , since there is so few custom made parts. It's frustrating to me too, but that's what I like about doing this engine, it's the challenge.
Rodimus Prime wrote:let them kill themselves it will sort out
but where would the liability fall? someone would find out they got their info from here, and then the site would be shut down quicker than you can sneeze. considering the amount of people who spend a majority of their life on here, i don't think that's the greatest idea in the world.
pirates kick ninja asses, f00
Put a disclaimer and the site is safe... Dave cannot control the actions of the 'users' posting on this public forum. Therefore, he cannot be liable for the 'users' actions.
A lot of pirated software / music sites have disclaimers as well just to protect themselves.
What's even more ironic is that some yahoo was trying to figure out where to buy a pre-empting device in off-topic. That would concern me more than the stupid VSS.
(For those that don't know... a pre-empting device changed the signal from red to green).
Secondly, what you guys are saying here makes absolutely no sense to me. If I asked a fellow org member how to change my own brakes and I mess up doing the install myself based on the advice I rec'd here and end up rear ending some guy due to brake failure...
Does that mean I can sue JBO???
I don't think so. It's my own damn responsibility.
Exact same thing applies to the VSS mod. I have been on the org for a while and I know how to do the VSS mod. I never did it because I know if I screwed up and killed myself... it would be my fault. Good luck blaming the internet.
My 0.02
Disclaimers are only as good as the lawers Dave can afford so the easiest sollutoin
is to just not allow it at all.
BzE I agree with you but you have to relize that in this day and age everyone is "sue" happy and just wants to make a quick buck. Why do you think the phone book has soo
many lawers in it?
And finialy you may not sue Dave but the person you plow into if they find out the accident is due to you getting bad advice from the org don't you believe for one second there lawer wont see doller signs when he would find out about it.
Its just safer to not allow it. And as for the signel pre-empting device you spoke of
well they sell them in the backs of magizines for like $50.00. But not all traffic lights are wired for them to work. A test was done on T.V. a while back and it was found only like 2% of all traffic signels can even be changed. Others all you need do is flash your lights on and off a couple times and they change instantly. But again not all do.
so it doesn't matter.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
It's more than posting a disclaimer...
There is still the trheat of legal action, and legal action doesn't come cheap. Even in Dave would win, the amount in legal fees would stuff this site up harsher than being constipated.
A lot of people don't take a lot of things like that into account unless they've actually been their and ran their own car club in an official manner, when you realize the liability issues and how a few idiots can ruin it for everyone, and then you're stuck with the paycheck. It's not worth it.
I can speak intellegently about Dave position in everything but magnitude--JBO runs internationally, while JBNW runs Washington, Oregon, Idaho, and Western Montana, but since it is an official legal entity, the concerns dave has about one idiot, i can say i share. It's a CYA thing and in all reality, pissing off a small percentage of people that would want info on that mod doesn't even rank as small potatoes when it comes to losing the entire club, and being held liable for damages in this suit-happy society.
And if that means that the mods/admins are @!#$s, so be it.
Goodbye Callisto & Skaši, Hello Ishara:
2022 Kia Stinger GT2 AWD
The only thing every single person from every single walk of life on earth can truly say
they have in common is that their country is run by a bunch of fargin iceholes.
I dunno.
I still think that information that can easily be obtained from the internet would be too difficult to blame on just one website or one user.
Also, the website Dave is running is for mostly entertainment / knowledge NOT to make money. Therefore, it would be really hard to sue Dave or JBO. It's not a business per say. It's an online community where various topics are discussed irregarless of their legalliy.
I think the "VSS" mod has been blown WAAAAAAAY out of proportion.
Blown out of proportion is deffinently right. but like you said the org is not here to make money so if Dave were to get nailed by an ambulance chaser of a lawer what would he do? pay a ton of money out of his own pocket? That wouldn't be right. I know your not
saying it would but for a minute look at things from Daves point of view. Its his site,
its his money, and its his ass if someone gets killed cause of his site. Hes just being carefull you can't blame the man for that.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
...BzE... wrote:I dunno.
I still think that information that can easily be obtained from the internet would be too difficult to blame on just one website or one user.
not always....
kid kills someone and blames it on a video game, that holds up in court...
same occured in the 90's with "gangster music" as it was called.
anytime a parent can blame a media medium or a scapegoat cause of their kids death, F-ups, or accidents, or dismemberment...they will do so...
not always in hopes of money, but alot of times simply because it sheds blame from themselves not being responsible.
the person him or herself doesnt always have to blame something, but those left behind will....
hell just look at the current rockstar game, GTA san andreas... all trying to ban it cause it has sex in it.... welcome to real life, sex happens. your kids know about it. especially by highschool. and if they have a computer prob have worse things on the comp than a video game.
but grandma wants to sue???
Quote:
I think the "VSS" mod has been blown WAAAAAAAY out of proportion.
oh no doubt, however it shows how many dumb arse F-tards are on this site. if you wanna know about it, reallllly...how hard is it to simply do a search, or freaking google it. people must not want it all that bad if they are too lazy to search. its like welfare.... if you are too lazy to do a bit of work to benefit yourself, then should you sit back and collect...
hell no.
If that is the case, then censor everything! Risk is still risk at the end.
What if someone tries to do a lambo door conversion based on the instructions from JBO / USER? *** Something goes wrong they guy gets mashed in the head by the door causing a concusion... CAN THEY SUE JBO? SURE!!!
What if someone tries to do the HID conversion based on the instructions from JBO / USER? *** The car catches fire overnight in the garage and sets the entire house aflame!
CAN THEY SUE JBO? SURE!!!
What if someone tries a blowjob method based on the instuctions from JBO / USER??
Chokes on load and almost dies of suffocation or suffers massive sperm burns to the innards of the nose?? CAN THEY SUE JBO? SURE!!!
90% of the topics discussed on the JBO are cause enough to sue, so if one must be so paranoid... then why just one topic such as VSS.
The VSS has least chances of getting the JBO in heat mostly due to the fact that the person who acquired the VSS mod knowledge from JBO most likely won't be alive to give a @!#$!
Dam-it Muffins (Event) wrote:...BzE... wrote:I dunno.
I still think that information that can easily be obtained from the internet would be too difficult to blame on just one website or one user.
not always....
kid kills someone and blames it on a video game, that holds up in court...
same occured in the 90's with "gangster music" as it was called.
anytime a parent can blame a media medium or a scapegoat cause of their kids death, F-ups, or accidents, or dismemberment...they will do so...
not always in hopes of money, but alot of times simply because it sheds blame from themselves not being responsible.
the person him or herself doesnt always have to blame something, but those left behind will....
hell just look at the current rockstar game, GTA san andreas... all trying to ban it cause it has sex in it.... welcome to real life, sex happens. your kids know about it. especially by highschool. and if they have a computer prob have worse things on the comp than a video game.
but grandma wants to sue???
Quote:
I think the "VSS" mod has been blown WAAAAAAAY out of proportion.
oh no doubt, however it shows how many dumb arse F-tards are on this site. if you wanna know about it, reallllly...how hard is it to simply do a search, or freaking google it. people must not want it all that bad if they are too lazy to search. its like welfare.... if you are too lazy to do a bit of work to benefit yourself, then should you sit back and collect...
hell no.
I understand, however... the JBO is not really comparable to video game manufacturers. Just because someone told them how to do the VSS mod, doesn't mean that same person told them to go and speed all over the highways. That was their decision and if it should result in injury or death... then the person driving made that decision... not the people on the JBO.
On any forum. People discuss various topics... this does not involve the web admin. Anything you learn on a forum is no different than to discuss those same topics via email.
Also, just because someone knows about the VSS mod... doesn't mean they are going to do it to their car... it's general knowledge.
Every heard of COVER YOUR ASS ? Thats whats going on.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Then cover your ass on all aspects. BAN ALL ILLEGAL ACTIVITY ON THE ORG.
That's the only way to be 100% safe or as you put it... cover your ass!
