Dont know if this has been brought up before, but I figured maybe it is worth the discussion.

After buying HPT's and desiding to turbo in the near future, the fuel tuning on HP has me a little worried with the single bar map. My thought was to get basic megasquirt to use for tuning fuel maps and such, being that it has a map designed for boost. But at the same time using HP for controlling all the other stuff. But I am not too familiar with how megasquirt is set up. I dont know if hooking it up would render anything else on the ECU useless or not. Obviously it doesnt get rid of everything because the fan and trans still need to be controlled.

Of course this would require spending money that could be used elsewhere, but I just like megasquirts fuel program better, and actually trust tuning with it a little more.

exactly what i want to do....

you can get megasquirt for controlling fuel, and disable all of the codes the ecu will throw for them being missing with hpt.... but the ecu would still be there and it would control things still, megasquirt would just have complete control of the fuel situation



|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|

I thought it would work, and of course it would work very well if set up right. Pretty much giving us the most powerful and user friendly tuning system available. If there would be no complications in running these in together I think I know how I will be tuning my car.

i dont know about the most powerful and user friendly... but it would work well



|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|

it would be easier to run IGN and Fuel through megasquirt... and use the stock ECM to control things like the gauges and evap system....

^Yes, why would you want HPT when you have the MS?
As stated above the only real reason to buy HPT when your going to run standalone is to take off codes but for the price thats absolutely crazy just to take off codes. What we should do is get together a group of people who want HPT to "just take off codes" and go into an HPT together and then just buy the credits for our cars/years and use it just to take off the codes. I'd buy a unit from HPT that did just this for $100.00 or so but until then........

Basically if your going to use MS then you might aswell run MSnS.

Joshua Dearman wrote:^Yes, why would you want HPT when you have the MS?
As stated above the only real reason to buy HPT when your going to run standalone is to take off codes but for the price thats absolutely crazy just to take off codes. What we should do is get together a group of people who want HPT to "just take off codes" and go into an HPT together and then just buy the credits for our cars/years and use it just to take off the codes. I'd buy a unit from HPT that did just this for $100.00 or so but until then........

Basically if your going to use MS then you might aswell run MSnS.

Because setting up megasquirt for fuel only is a CAKEWALK. Setting it up for ignition is a different story. If you have megasquirt for fuel, hpt will take over all other operations, many more things that megasquirt could do. Always remember that a stock ecu is always more powerful than a standalone, and megasquirt with fuel only is a very good idea, the system supports up to 4-bar now I am pretty sure, which I dont think any j-body enthusiest will even get near. Unless you plan on turning over 8000 rpms, ignition can be completely controlled with hpt with MUCH less hassle.

^Umm....you missed my point. A full standalone is always more powerfull then MS. If you think for one second that MS can do LESS than the factory ECU then you for sure have never seen what the MS can do. The MS is limit-less far beyond anything the factory ECU can do. My point was by the time you purchase the MS you might as well run the MSnS firmware and run it all since it costs half that of HPT and is far beyond anything the factory ECU can do. Getting MS to work with ignition is harder but not impossible and theres many people who already have a file to upload for a base tune.

Also, the intake pressures have nothing to do with the RPMs the motor will be turning, and you always want to tune for boost spikes so it is possible to require tuning to 4-bar. My real point is if MS then why HPT? Why spend $1000 on tuning solutions when the first $350.00 you spent could do everything the next $650.00 you'll spend could do? I understand the codes can be tuned off with HPT which is the ONLY advantage to using it but thats only worth so much.

Joshua Dearman wrote:^Umm....you missed my point. A full standalone is always more powerfull then MS. If you think for one second that MS can do LESS than the factory ECU then you for sure have never seen what the MS can do. The MS is limit-less far beyond anything the factory ECU can do. My point was by the time you purchase the MS you might as well run the MSnS firmware and run it all since it costs half that of HPT and is far beyond anything the factory ECU can do. Getting MS to work with ignition is harder but not impossible and theres many people who already have a file to upload for a base tune.

Also, the intake pressures have nothing to do with the RPMs the motor will be turning, and you always want to tune for boost spikes so it is possible to require tuning to 4-bar. My real point is if MS then why HPT? Why spend $1000 on tuning solutions when the first $350.00 you spent could do everything the next $650.00 you'll spend could do? I understand the codes can be tuned off with HPT which is the ONLY advantage to using it but thats only worth so much.

MS is the best solution for fuel control right now since it has MAP based fuel maps and not Alpha-N, but unless you make it do ignition timing too you still hit a wall as far as tunability goes.

Are you running MS? if so, is it running ignition? A lot of people would be very curious to know how you got it to work.

Also, if you do get MS to do fuel and ignition, there's no telling what kind of codes if any you'll get thrown. The ecu already doesn't like it enough as it is with MS running fuel. HPT would give you access to altering or disabling those DTCs and turn these codes off the RIGHT way.

there are spark based limiters for the rev limiter and speed limiter that even tho MS will let you push past them, if you want higher RPMs, you better get something to do the spark side of things because the ecu retards timing hardcore when you hit 104mph or over 6500rpm.. more fuel will help you push thru it regardless, but you're still going to see a nasty drop in power at such.

HPT to control stock ecu functionality as well as stock ignition timing and MS for fuel control is one of the best combos without running a full blown stand alone system that requires complete rewiring of the car, and loss of ever being street legal again since you'd end up disabiling the OBD2 system

if you want absolute TOTAL control without the hassle of a stand alone here's what I plan on doing:

I'm already on HPT
I'm going to be using a piggy back MSD DIS-2 ignition with blaster coils so I can get spark advance back.. an ingenious Idea I had to get advance even tho the DIS2 only does retard.. but i'm smart like that

I'm going to try to use alpha-n to tune for fuel, but there's supposedly a wall there.. if it coems down to it (which I think it will) I'm going to be running an MS setup for MAP based fuel

so HPT+MSD+MS = killer

and since you can do it in stages, its a bit easier to swallow for the everday tuner. also, you retain OBD2 functions (for the most part) which means some heavily modified cars can more likely than not, squeeze past emissions and eliminate pesky CELs

I agree, MS is a most cost-effective solution to fuel tuning, but getting ignition to work properly has been a hassle for quite some time. Until someone comes up with a solution for that, MS is still limited to what it can do.

so to recap:
-HPT controlling the ecu, fan settings, HO and LO spark tables (for consistency), and the transmission in automatic trans in equipped cars
-MSD to modify spark tables, get stronger spark, and boost related ignition retard if so required (can use stock coils as per Rodimus' guide)
-MS for 4 bar MAP fuel support

ultimate setup right there (for street cars) IMO

I haven't yet run MS ignition on a J yet, but Im not new to MS. It is trickier to get the MS to run ignition on the ecotec as it an "up-version" of the DIS system in the LD9's which I will be putting the MS on. There have been several people that I know that have gotten the LD9's ignition running through MS and theres already several how-to's on MS's site for the LD9/Quad4 DIS ignition setup to run through MS and even stable on bench testing to 9k rpms. However, there have been people who recently have gotten the ecotec's ignition running through MS aswell but I've never followed up on them so I'm not sure to what level of success they had.

I intend to still use my MSD DIS2 since I dont want to run the high current ignition modules in the MS box which would build alot of heat. Do tell how you intend to get the MSD DIS2 to advance the spark!

Like I said I'd pay $100.00 or so in a group buy-in to buy an HPT and model year credits then just flash a crap load of ecus to remove the CEL triggers but until then I can't imagine paying $650.00 for just that. And buy just that meaning if you have the MS running both spark and fuel.

Now as far as limiters go the HPT will eliminate the 104mph and 6500rpm, correct?

hpt will let you eliminate the limiters fully (fuel and spark) so yea it can do that on its own

the only downside is the stock ignition map stops at 6400rpm which means for people like me, who occasionally shift much higher than 6400, have over 1000 rpm of no spark advance, myself having 1100-1300rpm of no advance

Until I get my theory to work I won't release too many details, but instead of worrying about how to get advance, I thought of a better way to use the retard, and thats all I'll say

if you do get ignition to work on an eco, be sure to share the information lots of people would love to use a MS only system such as sand rails and pure race cars

so basically what your gonna do i advance the @!#$ outta of your timing with hpt then use the msd to retard it that way you can have more advance past 6400 as msd wont have a limitation of 6400 rpms

^no, I think hes saying HPT has no control past 6400rpms which is where the factory ignition stops you from tuning past that point since as far as that factory ignition is concerned there is nothing beyond 6400rpm for spark tuning.
I'm thinking hes going to run the DIS2 channels on oposite coils.....Ch. 1&3 on cyl 2&4 and vise vera then retard the timing 180degrees?!?!? I'm not sure you could retard that far, but thats the first thing that comes to my mind.

one of you is right i won't say which one tho but i stick to the K.I.S.S. method

results coming soon

if the msd thing can tune spark vs rpm with more then just a constant "remove 5 from everything" and you can say at 6500 = 5 retard 7000 = 10 retard then i vote for Wrench Monkey being right

all you'd have to do is make that last cell, the 6400 spot high as hell and when it passes that point and starts using the last value repeated then the msd takes over and retards as needed

however you are doing it, good luck! ima need to do the same when i build my valvetrain




|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|

^Are you sure the factory ecu uses the last value? or does it just drop all advance? If so then all wrench monkeys idea would just add retard above 6400rpm. Interesting ideas.....

I dont know what the factory ecu does past its limiters since i dont have hpt so I have no idea if it uses last value.

you'll see you'll see.. results are coming soon MSD is my next mod at this point

yeah it takes the last known value and runs with it. so what he could do is up all his values at the point which it will go off the graph. then take msd to drop it back down to a safe advance giving you some tuning ability past 6400

Wrench Monkey wrote:yeah it takes the last known value and runs with it. so what he could do is up all his values at the point which it will go off the graph. then take msd to drop it back down to a safe advance giving you some tuning ability past 6400

yep... we have it all figured out mr skwirl, you might as well own up to your idea



|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|

makes me want to get msd now



|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|

I was sitting in work all week trying to figure out what to do.. its a really large hurdle as far as my car's tuning goes

I was actually seriously considering running the full blown digital 7 plus ignition with the distributor and losing my power steering..

but then, I had the epiphany I mentioned above. mwahaha


just think I'm almost 13s with over 1000rpm of no spark advance.. thats nuts!
when I actually do get some advance and some other mods I smell...

<sniff sniff>

3.8 all motor?

wow!! 3.8 is crazy crazy!!!!! that beats dragsters!! lol

yea man, thats going to be awesome for you! right now im running stock shift points so its not a big deal yet

great idea! as soon as you hinted it up there i had it pinned



|Forged 8.9:1 Wiseco Pistons|Forged Eagle Rods|HPTuners|60trim|Tial Wastegate|
|Precision Intercooler|2.5" Exhaust|2.5" Charge Pipes|630CC Mototron Injectors|
|Stock: Fuel Pump, Transmission, Manifold, TB, Head, Head Gasket, Ignition, Suspension...|

lol 13.8

The stock ECU exterpolates (right word?) the last value it sees in a map when you pass that point. This means if you set it to advance 40 degrees at 6400 then it will go to 40 degrees for everything past that, and making PJs idea a possibility. Whether or not it will be as easy as it sounds.....now that's a toughy.


I too will be running the MSD, MS, HPT combo in 2007 though



I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26