Like the title says. For tuning low amounts of boost (10psi and less) is there a way to retard timing that won't cost me an arm and a leg?
HPT will do it, yeah, but that means I need to get a computer since mine is fried, and that's another $500 at least. And I suppose if I bought HPT I could use it for my fuel too, but I'm not keen on trying to fake a 2-bar tune, especially when a Cartech FMU will get er done no problem; I simply can't justify HPT just to tune timing. I know all the other features of HPT, but a lot of that stuff I just don't need. I don't need to go more than 108, my rev limiter is just fine where it is, I'm not worried about datalogging on a daily driver... Don't get me wrong, HPT is a helluva tuning tool, it's not for me though.
On the other hand, I could get a DIS-2, but they're fricken expensive, even more than HPT, so HPT looks even more appealing. And correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the MSD module also require the use of a laptop to program it?
I was reading through some archived info the other day and I saw something about someone using SAFC to try to tune their fuel (which it won't on our cars apparently) and it ended up adjusting the timing instead? Is this even possible?
You could fake a knock signal. Knock is determined by amplitude and frequency of ks signal. An audio signal could provide a specific amount of retard. Bad news is you're limited to PCM pre-programmed curve and have no safety net if something goes wrong.
-->Slow
ALSO, the ECM has a set amount of KR it can pull, for instance the stock LD-9 supercharger program only lets the computer pull 8* of timing.
there is no easy way, take it to someone that has HPT and do it right.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
ln2johnny wrote:Like the title says. For tuning low amounts of boost (10psi and less) is there a way to retard timing that won't cost me an arm and a leg?
HPT will do it, yeah, but that means I need to get a computer since mine is fried, and that's another $500 at least. And I suppose if I bought HPT I could use it for my fuel too, but I'm not keen on trying to fake a 2-bar tune, especially when a Cartech FMU will get er done no problem; I simply can't justify HPT just to tune timing. I know all the other features of HPT, but a lot of that stuff I just don't need. I don't need to go more than 108, my rev limiter is just fine where it is, I'm not worried about datalogging on a daily driver... Don't get me wrong, HPT is a helluva tuning tool, it's not for me though.
On the other hand, I could get a DIS-2, but they're fricken expensive, even more than HPT, so HPT looks even more appealing. And correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the MSD module also require the use of a laptop to program it?
I was reading through some archived info the other day and I saw something about someone using SAFC to try to tune their fuel (which it won't on our cars apparently) and it ended up adjusting the timing instead? Is this even possible?
if you think an FMU can match hpt for fuel tuning... O_o
if HPT isn't for you, or other programs similar, then you should probably get out of tuning and performance now.
granted hpt does have limits that can be surpassed with good tuning, but an FMU is not going to be as precise or accurate as hpt
use MSD to retard timing.
don't cheap out on performance stuff. you're asking for a blown motor. if there was a cheap way to do it, everyone would be doing it.
when you mess with your fuel, how do you plan on monitoring it without a computer of some kind? air/fuel ratios is not something to be trifled with.
Sounds to me like you're too busy trying to justify not spending the money on HPT or another good tuning solution and just making excuses. Its as simple as this, you can pay now or pay a LOT more later. You need to remember that the car thing is a HOBBY.... there is no requirement, no deadline for when your car has to be fast. So take your time and do it right. Fmu's work to a point, but if you're at the point where you NEED to retard timing, than you're at the point where an FMU really isn't going to cut it anymore. And without some kind of datalogging, you have no idea if you even need to lower your advance at all. If you're not getting any KR on your current tune, there's no reason to drop timing. And the only way you can know if you're getting KR is with some kind of datalogger. Save your sheckles for a while get HPT and you'll have a datalogger, fuel control, and timing control all in one. You can't tune blind, and cheap tuning solutions.... 90% of the time aren't really solutions...
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Quote:
And the only way you can know if you're getting KR is with some kind of datalogger.
Actually, you can connect an amp to a knock sensor and listen to the engine. I've done this using an earphone then driven around. It's amazing. Yes, you can definitely tell when enough knock is occurring to retard the timing.
-->Slow
^^^^ wow this guys got some ninja skills.
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote:
when you mess with your fuel, how do you plan on monitoring it without a computer of some kind? air/fuel ratios is not something to be trifled with.
I have a wideband O2 to monitor A/F ratios, EGT gauge for obvious reasons, oil pressure too.
It has nothing to do with making excuses. If I had money coming out of my arse I'd buy the damn software, fake a 2-bar and be done with it. But I don't have that kind of cash flow to buy the software AND a new laptop to run it. I never will. Ya'll might think I'm stupid or something but I'm not. I'm fully aware that HPT is god around here. I get it. You think that if I don't use it I'll blow up my motor. I get it. Fact is, people around here were boosting long before HPT was even an option. But whatever. All I asked for was an alternative, I'm not sure how me asking means I'm going to blow my sh#t up. I mean seriously, if I were that stupid, don't you think I would have already installed everything without regard to fuel or timing? Whatever, flame me if you want. That's apparently all anyone around here does anymore.
what we're trying to say isn't a flame. Its that there's a difference between bandaid tuning and real tuning. If you have the money for ANY mods, than you have the money for hpt. Just save it up instead of buying cheaper stuff now. Check ebay for used or rebuilt laptops, I got mine for about 160 bucks. Tuning has never been something to skimp on. What i'm trying to say is that anytime you're fooling a sensor, or doing some other free "trick" to convince a stock ecu to do something, almost 90% of the time it results in some kind of a problem whether it be reduced driveability, some kind of nagging hiccup, or other problem. They do work to an extent, I'll give you that, but there's a lot to be said about not doing things the skimpy way. If you really would rather not pay for HPT, then maybe look into Megasquirt, though I'm not sure what other parts are required for you to use that to control timing in addition to fuel. Yes, FPR's and little sensor tricks have been used for many years, but theres a very good reason for the immense popularity of HPT and other programming based tuning solutions that have come about lately. From what I've seen its become increasingly rare for aftermarket forced induction kits to include FMU's and for good reason, its just not as complete a tuning solution as a reprogrammed ecu or standalone.
Don't make the mistake of everyone here and being in such a rush for results that you buy cheap parts at every opportunity just to make some immediate progress with a ton of compromises. Look at SweetnessGT, he's taken years to get his car to the point its at, but when he's finished its going to be incredible. Then you have car's like NJHK's that never even got to get dynoed because the money required to fix all the half-assed stuff done to them was so much that it just wasn't worth it anymore and they got sold or parted out. I did some things the cheap way myself in youthful indiscretion, but looking back, if I had just saved my money and been patient enough to do things the right way the first time, I would have had much better ET's and a much easier time doing it, not to mention less little annoying problems. I'm just trying to get you to think about this before you spend the money.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
I do apologize for my little rant. Here's the deal. My kit is complete, save for the ignition. I've literally gotten everything else except a way to tune the ignition. The header is in the garage, the turbo is sitting in a box, sealed in plastic with oil in the centersection until it's installed, the topfeed is under way, everything is jsut waiting to be installed. Okay, I still have to figure out the exhaust and route the charge pipes but you get the idea.
I would rather use HPT, believe me. But this idea of having to "fake" a 2-bar tune seems like a bandaid in itself, I really have no idea if it really works or not. Seems to, enough have done it, but I don't know. I won't unless I try it I guess.
I'm guessing that if I do use HPT, that means the FMU i bought is uselss?
The FMU might help to make the HPT calibration seem more refined. I can't say yes or no because I don't use it. But the rescaled 2 BAR does leave some areas of a calibration open for mechanical help.
If you're looking for an ignition computer, then you might be able to use a MEFI or aftermarket unit to do the job. But you'll need to remove your controller and switch to an older style module, say from 94. And to do this you need to either build electrical devices to allow 2 computers to share sensors or you'll need to install a second set of sensors. It's not an easy job in this case to not spend money.
We have computer shows in this area all the time. The industrial companies are always upgrading equipment and there are plenty of guys that get the stuff for pennies on the dollar to resell. I've managed to find good laptops for cheap more than once. The real cost is the HPT. I'm with you on that, awful expensive. But you might be able to split the cost with someone else to make it a little easier.
When I first joined the .org I kept talking about tuning the right way, in the ecm software. Soo many people said "doesn't need it" that I had to laugh. But since HPT came out I haven't seen anyone say "I wasted my money on HPT" except one guy that seems to complain about everything, and he ended up going aftermarket anyway.
-->Slow
