Ok I am going to be installing my 36# green tops tomorrow and need your thoughts. Ok I have the le5 intake manifold, wai, Aem uego wide band about a foot from the entrance to my cat, I have a copy of Ryan config file I got from imacav, blah blah lol. FYI this is a daily driver. Now I want your thoughts on somethings.
1) what should I do for pe enable? I'm thinking maybe 3k for delay but don't really know yet or should.I do it tps percent based?
2) what would you recommend for a commanded afr? I know right now if feels awesome around 11-12 range.
3) should I copy the high octane tables over to the low if I want to still run regular 87 octane?
Thanks a ton guys. Wish me luck since this will be my very first tune.
Oh and would you recommend a rev limit increase? And whats safe for stock valve train.
7k rev limter is fairly safe from what I've read and I've run mine up there with boost for a decent period of time (yay auto-x). I would run cmd afr for PE mode at 12.8:1 since thats where the optimum power is at. I cant tell ya for PE enable on n/a mine is just set so that I'm never in boost and not in PE mode.
I would tune you spark tables on 93 with the high and low the same. then save that table, run the tank dry fill with 87 and start with your stock low octane table and tune that in both high and low tables, then copy your new HO table in the HO table once your done, that should result in a good street spark tune that can run both 93 and 87 and 89 and it should just act like a stock tune with the knock sensor taking up any slack.
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Nice thanks man. Right now I have pe delay at 3k and at 3200 rpm and above I have the pe enable tps at 45 but I need to change it. Also so far my spark tables are stock and I didn't see any more knock than I did Stock. I just drove around logging for about 45 minutes and I still have a slight afr error but it drives great. Stock injectors I seen 75% duty at wot and last night I seen like 56% lol. Just need to go out and try again. But at wot I was hitting 13 afr now its 12.
ok guys had a problem that i need help with. ok i did my tune on my 02 ecu. i first wanted to try it on my 05 ecu so i can have cranking ve that my 02 doesnt have.... well after i got the ecu in i tried changing my tps pid to the non sae one like pj said to do and no go for me. when i tried to log the 0 on the bottom of the meter in hptuners disappears. i change it to the sensor and it reads 9-89 percent. i couldnt ever get it to work right on the 05 ecu. so i swapped back to my stock 02 ecu an it worked fine... whats the deal? could it be the bcm? i have quk ln2 (ryan's) config file i got from randall (imacav) so i dont believe its a config file issue... any insight? its working fine on the 02 ecu for now. thanks in advance.
try restarting the scanner. sometimes it glitches out pretty bad with wild readings (-280*F on my ECT more than once)
my take on tuning:
-copy the HO PE spark table over the LO PE spark table and run 93 all the time.
-commanded AFR is whatever you want to do, but honestly I'm running 13:1 and it seems pretty happy.
-pe enable should be at 0 rpm. all it is is a delay.. the instant you mat that throttle IMO is the instant you should hit PE.
don't bother trying to tune cruise or closed loop crap.. its a waste of time on our PCM.
smooth the crap out of your tables when you tune VE
why do you care about cranking VE?
Someone told me cranking ve was important lol. Guess not? On the pe enable woukd you recommend change the rpm or leave it? And thanks a bunch pj I am glad you jumped in here and helped. Oh BTW to jump rev limit up on a manual all I do is change it under fuel cut?
I wish I could get cranking VE, the idle map that makes my car idle with a 0 fuel trim also makes the car hit 18:1 afr's on cold startup and 16.5:1 on warm startup. Until the idle drops and then its fine.
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Yep my 02 does the same thing
Tuning the 02 eco is double hard too because our fpr is not vac/boost referenced. From what I've gathered its just a restriction in the return line that creates the pressure.
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Hmmm. Didn't hear that before. Maybe it has to do with that part that no one can seem to identify on the feed line that round part right after the schrader valve.
Leafy wrote:I wish I could get cranking VE, the idle map that makes my car idle with a 0 fuel trim also makes the car hit 18:1 afr's on cold startup and 16.5:1 on warm startup. Until the idle drops and then its fine.
Ok let me take that back. Stock tune and injectors it did that exact same thing. On my current tune and saab green tops it starts up cold at 16 afr within a few seconds it starts to swing rich pretty swiftly all the way to 11 then straight to 14 and it starts alternating like normal. I also note I did nothing to idle ve tables. Weird.
1) what should I do for pe enable? I'm thinking maybe 3k for delay but don't really know yet or should.I do it tps percent based?
3k is fine, but you can really set it to zero if you retain the stock TPS enable settings; it's not like it will richen up under cruising or light accel conditions. This is a matter of preference really. THink about how often do you punch it below 3k anyways? We usally downshift.
2) what would you recommend for a commanded afr? I know right now if feels awesome around 11-12 range.
11-12 is way too rich on a mildly modded n/a L61 IMO. Mine was happy anywhere from 13 to 13.5. By happy i mean pulled hard and did not knock. More importantly, what you are commanding is meaningless if the VE tables are not tuned to achieve what you are commanding. What does the wideband say when you punch it?
3) should I copy the high octane tables over to the low if I want to still run regular 87 octane?
Use this info at your own risk, but once my fueling was dialed in, i was able to add quite a bit of advance in the mid range even on 87 octane - six degrees in some cells. At high rpm, however, it only took an extra degree or two in the HO table. As long as it doesn't knock, it will run the HO table even if the LO table has a lower value.
FWIW, i rung mine out to 7k almost daily - i tuned it at about 60k miles and when i pulled the motor at 95k miles it was fine.
When I punch it it will shoot to like 11.7 and as the rpms go up it goes to the commanded 12.0. Like I said I'm still learning lol this was my first tune I've done so I wasn't sure what to command on the pe afr or anything really. I worked on my ve for about 30 minutes or so I need to do some more. So a few more questions then.
1) when ve tuning do you tune ve then change pe or do it the other way around?
2) would it be ok to leave the commanded afr richer in the higher rpm range? I just feel safer running 12-12.5 in the higher rpms.
3) would you recommend me to leave the tps part of pe enable alone?
4) on the rev limit I just change it under dirk cut right that's it in a manual right?
Thanks everyone who has helped me out here. This has been one heck of a learning experience for me.
1) I'm not sure what you mean. I get my pe enable and pe cmd afr set up and then tune the ve
2) I guess thats ok but you're n/a, 12.4 is what I run with the blower so I really doubt you'll have issues going leaner, 12.8 is said to be the optimum ratio to make power.
3) I dont really have an answer here
4) you just change the stuff in the fuel control section. and the p/n stuff does nothing, the spark ramp stuff does nothing (this is in the spark section, go figure)
half an hour is not long enough. you need a good 50 hits at most of the table and you can then interpolate (in this case this is just a fancy word for smooth by hand) the rest.
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Thx leafy I figured 30 minutes wasn't enough but it was getting late so I finished up. I guess I did it wrong then I did low rpm ve first then high then changed pe and was done. Sucks about shifted how to he never mentioned pe in it and that's what I went by. Guess I will be going out and re doing it lol. So far its running good tho I drive 120 miles daily and I haven't had any issues all week. Thanks guys. Oldschool if you have any insight on my last post please post.
still not sure what your'e talking about when your'e saying tuning pe. if yo umean the pe cmd afr then that doesnt effect the rest of the tune, just how much fuel the computer decides it needs to add after it uses the fuel map to look up what your ve table is saying your ve is.
Basically what goes on in the computer is this (during open loop, ie wot and stuff):
sensors tell the computer what the throttle position is, the rpm, the ect, and the iat.
the computer then takes thats data and looks at the ve map and picks the cell that best describes it (actually picks a bunch of cells around that data and interpolates a value)
it then uses the ve value to calculate the amount of air flowing into the engine
then it looks at the cmd afr table and decides how much fuel it wants and modifies this value based on the iat and ect data
then it looks at the injector constant and uses that to decide how long it wants the injector to be open.
I hope that very brief and general synopsis of how a modern efi system works while in open loop helps you tune.
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Yeah I understand how it works I was just confused on when to change pe enable. Only thing shifted said was the commanded afr but let's say I want pe early wouldn't that change the ve tune?
If I'm thinking right isn't pe open loop? And non pe situations closed?
I had my friend tell me before he tuned ve he changed the pe enable and afr then went on with ve tuning. Some say wait till ve is done and then change the pe delay like I did. I followed shifted' how to to a t. Sorry to sound confused man.
Well, Leafy pretty much nailed it, but here are my thoughts:
1) when ve tuning do you tune ve then change pe or do it the other way around?
Like Leafy said, you set the commanded AFR in the PE section, including the RPM multiplier if you want a different AFR at various RPMs, then tune the VE tables as described in the sticky. Log actual AFR and make corrections to the Low and High RPM VE tables to get closer and closer to commanded.
2) would it be ok to leave the commanded afr richer in the higher rpm range? I just feel safer running 12-12.5 in the higher rpms.
It's probably ok, but symptoms of running too rich include fouled plugs, clogged cat, and/or carbon deposits. We could debate all day what AFR makes the best power on your car, but it really takes some serious dyno time. I'll tell you I've run as lean as 14.0 to one without problems. MY car seems to like 13-13.5 like i said.
3) would you recommend me to leave the tps part of pe enable alone?
Yes, for an n/a application. There are two criteria necessary for going into "PE mode" - rpm and tps. If you set the RPM delay to zero, it will enter pe at any rpm as long as its above the TPS in the table. As it is stock, it's alright for me for n/a apps like i said. Again, the enable settings are a matter of preference really.
4) on the rev limit I just change it under dirk cut right that's it in a manual right?
I assume you mean spark cut, and the answer is no, it's under fueling.
Awesome Thx a ton guys. Very much appreciated. I for some reason thought pe would throw off my logs for ve tuning. Guess I was confused. Looks like I'll be tuning again Saturday. Thx again.
Oh I did mean fuel cut lol stupid phone auto corrected and I didn't notice it said dirk not fuel lol.
yeah you can actually change the pe stuff and the ve stuff in different orders since they really dont effect what you're doing. If you were tuning based on injector pulse with rather than VE then that would be a whole other can of worms.
Open Loop happens:
PE
Cold Startup
Decel (for the fuel cut)
Closed loop happens:
idle once warmed
cruising once warmed
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Nice simple easy to understand answer leafy Thx for everything guys.
Well I went out today for about 2 hours and logged. I changed my enable rpm to 0, the afr set to 12.8, the multiplier from 5200 rpm wast touched so its about 12.14 at about redline. I forgot about the multiplier at first lol. so I decided to leave it for now. so far so good I am running 93 octane but I didn't touch the high and low spark advance yet. today I hit maybe 1.2 or so retard now mid rpm. now quick question since I'm a manual and I noticed at my zero tps and about 2500 rpm column in my one bar low rpm ve histagram is this normal if I just let off the gas and let it slow down with the clutch still depressed? But all in all I had fun today next time I go out I'm going to 7k rpm lol thank you all for the help.
