What are my options for setting up timing?
I feel confident about the fuel aspect of it, but I'm in the dark on timing. Can I set up timing based on a spark wire like an MSD box?
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What are you trying to do? If you want the MS to run ignition you need to give it either a full trigger wheel to decode or give it a square wave signal with at least as many triggers per RPM as you have cylinders, most cases you can get this from the ICM output that it sends to the ECM.
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Joshua Dearman wrote:What are you trying to do? If you want the MS to run ignition you need to give it either a full trigger wheel to decode or give it a square wave signal with at least as many triggers per RPM as you have cylinders, most cases you can get this from the ICM output that it sends to the ECM.
So there's no need to set up a trigger wheel? How can this be done? Sorry, I'm a n00b.
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Admiral Jedi wrote:Joshua Dearman wrote:What are you trying to do? If you want the MS to run ignition you need to give it either a full trigger wheel to decode or give it a square wave signal with at least as many triggers per RPM as you have cylinders, most cases you can get this from the ICM output that it sends to the ECM.
So there's no need to set up a trigger wheel? How can this be done? Sorry, I'm a n00b.
I don't have all the answers, but the stand alone I'm running has the same basic setup as a megasquirt box (pretty much identical)
you need to feed the megasquirt a signal from your reluctor ring (trigger wheel) and you also have to tell it how many teeth it has, and how many missing teeth it has (i'm not sure how this would work with a 6+1 reluctor because technically it has an
extra tooth not a missing one...)
but before all that you have an initial problem. the stock J-body crank position sensor is a VR sensor. These sensors have an analog output (SIN wave) that needs to be converted to digital (square wave)in order to be understood by the ecu/MS. The jbody ecu did this internally, but the run-of-the-mill MS1 board does not.
You can build some add-ons to support VR sensors, but most go the simple route and switch to a hall-effect sensor.
hall effect sensors have circuitry built in, and thus have the required SIN output, so you can feed it directly to any MS board with little problem.
however, like I said before, you still have to figure out the 6+1 thing, as well as programming the ignition tables in the MS itself.
in all honesty, giving MS control over the fuel system should be sufficient in most cases unless you're trying to run an ecotec bottom end without a 6+1 wheel (like the LE5, LSJ, LNF, or newschool L61) and if thats the case, programming the parameters in the MS box will be a lot easier, but you still run into the VR vs Hall-Effect sensor dilemma.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
you need to feed the megasquirt a signal from your reluctor ring (trigger wheel) and you also have to tell it how many teeth it has, and how many missing teeth it has (i'm not sure how this would work with a 6+1 reluctor because technically it has an extra tooth not a missing one...)
PJ, the 6+1 is a 6 tooth trigger wheel with an additional tooth a known distance from a timing tooth and it gives the CM a sync pulse.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:but before all that you have an initial problem. the stock J-body crank position sensor is a VR sensor. These sensors have an analog output (SIN wave) that needs to be converted to digital (square wave)in order to be understood by the ecu/MS. The jbody ecu did this internally, but the run-of-the-mill MS1 board does not.
You can build some add-ons to support VR sensors, but most go the simple route and switch to a hall-effect sensor.
I'm not sure about the MS1 but do yourself a favor and run the MS2 which has the LM1815 chip onboard and can NAIVELY run a VR OR Hall sensor input...just a switch of a few jumpers....no need for the proto area or a flying wire rig-up to make it work.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:hall effect sensors have circuitry built in, and thus have the required SIN output, so you can feed it directly to any MS board with little problem.
Hall can sometimes be easier but you add problems with it aswell....road debris can cause issues alot more than with a VR sensor and the halls are active and can fail...a VR sensor is completely passive and waaaay more reliable. - something to think about before just throwing on a Hall. What I always do is use a VR for the crank for reliability and a Hall on the cam for simplicity AND since both a VR and Hall circuitry is native just simple wiring with no additional hardware is required and if I loose the cam sync no big.....so I loose COP and SFI.....O well. Get'er home and fix it while running DIS and Batch.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:however, like I said before, you still have to figure out the 6+1 thing, as well as programming the ignition tables in the MS itself.
Not a problem, this wheel is native in the MS code.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:in all honesty, giving MS control over the fuel system should be sufficient in most cases unless you're trying to run an ecotec bottom end without a 6+1 wheel (like the LE5, LSJ, LNF, or newschool L61) and if thats the case, programming the parameters in the MS box will be a lot easier, but you still run into the VR vs Hall-Effect sensor dilemma.
I'd rather recommend running a wheel with more resolution since the 6+1 wheel has 60degrees of time based interpolation between known events. You'd do yourself a favor to run an EDIS wheel with a VR sensor which leaves you with 5degrees of time based interpolation and nice reliability.
Joshua Dearman wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
you need to feed the megasquirt a signal from your reluctor ring (trigger wheel) and you also have to tell it how many teeth it has, and how many missing teeth it has (i'm not sure how this would work with a 6+1 reluctor because technically it has an extra tooth not a missing one...)
PJ, the 6+1 is a 6 tooth trigger wheel with an additional tooth a known distance from a timing tooth and it gives the CM a sync pulse.
I know that.
Quote:
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:but before all that you have an initial problem. the stock J-body crank position sensor is a VR sensor. These sensors have an analog output (SIN wave) that needs to be converted to digital (square wave)in order to be understood by the ecu/MS. The jbody ecu did this internally, but the run-of-the-mill MS1 board does not.
You can build some add-ons to support VR sensors, but most go the simple route and switch to a hall-effect sensor.
I'm not sure about the MS1 but do yourself a favor and run the MS2 which has the LM1815 chip onboard and can NAIVELY run a VR OR Hall sensor input...just a switch of a few jumpers....no need for the proto area or a flying wire rig-up to make it work.
I have the spectre eMS board which is different than any other MegaSquirt board, yet utilizes megatune for tuning. It has VR support built into it, all I have to do is push a dipswitch to the proper position and it'll accept VR input. I appreciate the tip tho.
Quote:
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:hall effect sensors have circuitry built in, and thus have the required SIN output, so you can feed it directly to any MS board with little problem.
Hall can sometimes be easier but you add problems with it aswell....road debris can cause issues alot more than with a VR sensor and the halls are active and can fail...a VR sensor is completely passive and waaaay more reliable. - something to think about before just throwing on a Hall. What I always do is use a VR for the crank for reliability and a Hall on the cam for simplicity AND since both a VR and Hall circuitry is native just simple wiring with no additional hardware is required and if I loose the cam sync no big.....so I loose COP and SFI.....O well. Get'er home and fix it while running DIS and Batch.
I plan on running mine with just a crank sensor and no cam sync.. no SFI like you said, but I'm not worried about that too much.
Quote:
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:however, like I said before, you still have to figure out the 6+1 thing, as well as programming the ignition tables in the MS itself.
Not a problem, this wheel is native in the MS code.
this is good to know.. I was confused because in the wheel decoder settings in megatune, they only have a parameter for number of teeth, and number of missing teeth... not additional teeth.
Quote:
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:in all honesty, giving MS control over the fuel system should be sufficient in most cases unless you're trying to run an ecotec bottom end without a 6+1 wheel (like the LE5, LSJ, LNF, or newschool L61) and if thats the case, programming the parameters in the MS box will be a lot easier, but you still run into the VR vs Hall-Effect sensor dilemma.
I'd rather recommend running a wheel with more resolution since the 6+1 wheel has 60degrees of time based interpolation between known events. You'd do yourself a favor to run an EDIS wheel with a VR sensor which leaves you with 5degrees of time based interpolation and nice reliability.
I'm saying this because the stock L61 in jbodies has a 6+1 trigger, which is what I believe Admiral is trying to hook up megasquirt on with ignition control. The newer ecotecs have a 60-2 trigger, which is what necessitated me running a stand alone in the first place since I have an LSJ bottom end. Can't reconfigure the stock ecu to run anything but a 6+1 wheel so instead of running an aftermarket trigger, I decided to upgrade to a stand alone.
admiral, what you planning on over there anyways?
I'm just looking at other ways of tuning for boost. I don't want to use HPTuners. I'd rather use Megasquirt. It would be nice to be able to use MS for both ignition and fuel.
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DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:Joshua Dearman wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
you need to feed the megasquirt a signal from your reluctor ring (trigger wheel) and you also have to tell it how many teeth it has, and how many missing teeth it has (i'm not sure how this would work with a 6+1 reluctor because technically it has an extra tooth not a missing one...)
PJ, the 6+1 is a 6 tooth trigger wheel with an additional tooth a known distance from a timing tooth and it gives the CM a sync pulse.
I know that.
Yeah, for a wheel with a sync pulse you cant use the "build-a-wheel" tool in Megatune. You have to use the GM 7x wheel settings that are programmed naively.
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DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
I'm saying this because the stock L61 in jbodies has a 6+1 trigger, which is what I believe Admiral is trying to hook up megasquirt on with ignition control. The newer ecotecs have a 60-2 trigger, which is what necessitated me running a stand alone in the first place since I have an LSJ bottom end. Can't reconfigure the stock ecu to run anything but a 6+1 wheel so instead of running an aftermarket trigger, I decided to upgrade to a stand alone.
So for my non-frankensteined motor, is it relatively easy to control timing?
I'm looking for a list of hardware and how it all works together.
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Admiral Jedi wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
I'm saying this because the stock L61 in jbodies has a 6+1 trigger, which is what I believe Admiral is trying to hook up megasquirt on with ignition control. The newer ecotecs have a 60-2 trigger, which is what necessitated me running a stand alone in the first place since I have an LSJ bottom end. Can't reconfigure the stock ecu to run anything but a 6+1 wheel so instead of running an aftermarket trigger, I decided to upgrade to a stand alone.
So for my non-frankensteined motor, is it relatively easy to control timing?
I'm looking for a list of hardware and how it all works together.
The hardest part is going to get a signal to the MS1 board.. if you had MS2 you could use the stock sensor without problem.
I still see no reason to give MS control over spark however. If all your doing is boosting, fuel control is all you really need. You can always give it timing control later after you feel more comfortable with the process and get the fuel aspect working successfully.
A Stock l61 bottom end is simple with the Stock sensor. The earlier OBD1 ICM's for the 2.2L will 'read' the L61 crank sensor and that will put it into a 'format' that MS can read.
Ive posted the wiring diagram for the 2.2L ICM on here not to long ago...
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DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:Admiral Jedi wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
I'm saying this because the stock L61 in jbodies has a 6+1 trigger, which is what I believe Admiral is trying to hook up megasquirt on with ignition control. The newer ecotecs have a 60-2 trigger, which is what necessitated me running a stand alone in the first place since I have an LSJ bottom end. Can't reconfigure the stock ecu to run anything but a 6+1 wheel so instead of running an aftermarket trigger, I decided to upgrade to a stand alone.
So for my non-frankensteined motor, is it relatively easy to control timing?
I'm looking for a list of hardware and how it all works together.
The hardest part is going to get a signal to the MS1 board.. if you had MS2 you could use the stock sensor without problem.
I still see no reason to give MS control over spark however. If all your doing is boosting, fuel control is all you really need. You can always give it timing control later after you feel more comfortable with the process and get the fuel aspect working successfully.
Stock timing and MS controlling fuel? It just seems like half-doing it.
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Admiral Jedi wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:Admiral Jedi wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
I'm saying this because the stock L61 in jbodies has a 6+1 trigger, which is what I believe Admiral is trying to hook up megasquirt on with ignition control. The newer ecotecs have a 60-2 trigger, which is what necessitated me running a stand alone in the first place since I have an LSJ bottom end. Can't reconfigure the stock ecu to run anything but a 6+1 wheel so instead of running an aftermarket trigger, I decided to upgrade to a stand alone.
So for my non-frankensteined motor, is it relatively easy to control timing?
I'm looking for a list of hardware and how it all works together.
The hardest part is going to get a signal to the MS1 board.. if you had MS2 you could use the stock sensor without problem.
I still see no reason to give MS control over spark however. If all your doing is boosting, fuel control is all you really need. You can always give it timing control later after you feel more comfortable with the process and get the fuel aspect working successfully.
Stock timing and MS controlling fuel? It just seems like half-doing it.
I don't think PJ would disagree with that statement, but after you get your VE tables setup, you should be familiar enough with MS that setting/tuning spark won't be as complicated as starting off with a VEERRRY rough tune. I've been there...done that (with MS-II at least).
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