I was wondering if there was any talk of getting a speed density tune on our cars? I know its out there for the ld9's but is there anything for our eco's. I know someone is skeeming something up.
also the gmsc relfash is just a streched table like we do right, no change in the suroutines?
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boobs now with Riboflabin"
Jcavi wrote:
also the gmsc relfash is just a streched table like we do right, no change in the suroutines?
???
Having a tunable 2 bar OS for the Eco would breath fire back into this community. I can't begin to count how many people have given up boosted Js just because of the general poor capabilities for tuning good reliable driveability.
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
no fair you know what I mean.
what didnt you get about my post ^^. if it was the subrutines, to be honest im not sure what there called.
I guess histograms, like aplha N speed density, maf, vane.... the type of look up table the car uses for fuel.
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boobs now with Riboflabin"
Jcavi wrote:no fair you know what I mean.
what didnt you get about my post ^^. if it was the subrutines, to be honest im not sure what there called.
I guess histograms, like aplha N speed density, maf, vane.... the type of look up table the car uses for fuel.
like I've said in endless threads in tuning, there is no way to get the stock jbody ecu (unless one of the lucky years, old Z24 s/c flash or the new eco reflash) to do speed density.
they're alpha-n, thats it.
HPT works within the concrete boundaries of a vehicles ECU, and that is the jbody legacy... our ECUs suck. period. if you're doing all motor stuff or basic tuning its fine, but if you want a TRUE forced induction or balls-out all motor setup, our ECU just doesn't cut it.
I've said it a million times.
Quote:
I guess histograms, like aplha N speed density, maf, vane.... the type of look up table the car uses for fuel.
histograms aren't the definition for those EFI schemes.
histogram specifically in regards to HPT, refers to formula the scanner uses to measure the output of a certain table in the engine's ecu by measuring assigned sensors, or by actually doing a 'map trace' of the parameter from the ecu's table directly.
you can tell it to simply report the results, or determine an error factor, which you use to alter the tables and make the tune more accurate to what you want.
alpha-n
speed density
MAF/ AFM
these 3 can be called EFI schemes I guess or.. just different ways an ECU computes how much fuel to add to an engine for it to run given the situation.
the jbody ecu that 90% of us have is alpha-n.
alpha-n uses the TPS and RPM input to lookup preprogrammed Volumetric Efficiency values to figure out how much injector pulsewidth to use.
there's a few tables we have that use MAP and RPM but they're for deceleration, and idle instances.. in other words, completely useless since these tables are NOT referenced during driving with anything more than 0% throttle.
Quote:
also the gmsc relfash is just a streched table like we do right, no change in the suroutines?
no it isn't, there's quite a few threads on this as well. I think you need to use the search button a bit more than the post button. I respect your thirst for knowledge and I think its great but this has been discussed at length in multiple threads here, ecotecforum, hptforum, efilive, etc etc.
so I reiterate to my original answer. The only way to do speed density on an ecotec is with a stand alone. Our ECUs suck. HPT is limited by our ECU and our ECU sucks.
Our ECU sucks.
alpha-n only, limited RPM fuel and spark maps. no scalability.
Our ECU sucks.
and for good measure, our ECU sucks. Stand alone is the only way.
Megasquirt running fuel only would solve the problem quite nicely..or have MS run the whole show. People have gotten it to run our ignition systems, so a cheap, affordable stand alone is not only a good option, its the only option.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:
Megasquirt running fuel only would solve the problem quite nicely..or have MS run the whole show. People have gotten it to run our ignition systems, so a cheap, affordable stand alone is not only a good option, its the only option.
Jason is Running Megasquirt (last that I knew), so I don't think this thread was intended for his personal gain, but to open up discussion about possible alternatives. However, like you said, unless some bold/daring group of guys/gals get together and develope a new OS for the ECO PCM's, then you are all pretty much SOL.
I know I have asked this question before, but don't recall getting a straight answer on it...but, how hard would it really be for ECO owners to just run a 00-02 supercharged PCM and harness on the ECO? I know the ECO TPS is different, so you would have to switch TB's to one with a standard GM 3-wire TPS, and the knock sensing frequencies will be off (but MS and MS-II don't even have internal programmable knock frequency detection anyways), but shouldn't everything else pretty much wire up?
sorry I am a bit trigger happy with the keyboard when it comes to something I dont know. but the main question still stands, even after I read what your replied with.
I have yet to do adequte research on the GMSC flash and how it works, but if you can logically change the (subroutine, efi schemes, what ever..) on our cars with the 97 code, then why cant it be done else where. I mean its the same hard ware, just different intergration of the different motor.
the only reason its not cut and dry is because there was never a speed density for the eco.
and what bothers me is that if you can just hop between speed density, and alpha N on and ld9 then why isnt the look up table style (subrutine, efi schemes) moddifyable.
BTW if its becuase it is hard ware and not just code feel free to tell me to STFU
on another note.
I do run MS, but recently I have decied to give it up. why? becuase it is just to much work. now getting it to start and run a car is easy, any monkey that can read a diagram and buy a prebuilt could do it. but to fully integrate it and have the same drivability..... not gonna happen ( at least not with out a @!#$e load of work.
If Ive learnd one thing from working on cars. its that the simpliest route is usually the best and If I can tune reliably with great drivability and no extra computers with my fuel talking to my timing.... then HPT is my best choice.
so Im bagging my MS, and switching to HPT untill I decied to go what was that PJ "balls to the wall build" then I rip everything out and switch bag to my MS
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boobs now with Riboflabin"
But then you say "well the 2000 has the ability to run a 2 bar, why can't we just put that code on the 99-, Eco's, and 2.2's"? Its not really that simple. There's additional code in the 2000 ECU's that deals more with other things not related to those ECU's. You can't just cut out those pieces of code and hope it works, then make calibrations and maps for every other available calibration on the market. Then the next question that comes to the more informed is "well HPT is making custom OS's for the V8's and V6's, why no love for the L4's"? Even if they could make us a custom OS, the amount of time and effort they would need to put into it versus adding features for the better selling V8's and V6's would be a VERY poor business move on their part. I'm willing to bet that just by adding the L4's to their line up that they barely broke even on cost versus sales.
See I sat down, took some rittlin and used the magic button.....
ghey.
still though is there some underworking code that prevents hpt from relasing a file that just changes the one look up table to map VS RPM
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boobs now with Riboflabin"
I say we start sacrificing goats daily in front of the HPT Headquarters until they write us a custom 3 bar OS.
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
2 options. Megasquirt or 95 pcm. The 95 pcm could be converted to the eco, nobody has done it yet, but it's speed density based.
^^^Yes but if your going to do that you might as well throw on the 2.4 reflash and use hpt...
Jcavi wrote:But then you say "well the 2000 has the ability to run a 2 bar, why can't we just put that code on the 99-, Eco's, and 2.2's"?
Who says that?
Jcavi wrote:
and what bothers me is that if you can just hop between speed density, and alpha N on and ld9 ...
Who said you can do that?
Last I checked, the 97' and 00-02 Superchared PCM's are Speed Density
ONLY. It requires reflashing the OS on the stock PCM's to change the fueling schemes from Alpha-N to speed density...and you can't switch back to Alpha-N without having the OS reflashed back from GM. Also, the ECO pcm does get switched to a Speed density fueling scheme when reflashed as any reputable OEM aftermarket boost option should. From what I have heard though, the problem is in the checksums, and not determining the subroutines.
And yes, the PCM's are physically different between the 00+ and 99-, so you won't be able to run the BCM from your 02+ ECO J-body with a 97' speed density PCM, which is why I only mentioned using a 00-02 supercharged PCM and harness.
There is always Hahn Portfueler teamed with HPT for the best of all worlds.
Darryn
2004 Cavalier coupe, 5 speed, White
GO
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Whalesac wrote:Jcavi wrote:But then you say "well the 2000 has the ability to run a 2 bar, why can't we just put that code on the 99-, Eco's, and 2.2's"?
Who says that?
Jcavi wrote:
and what bothers me is that if you can just hop between speed density, and alpha N on and ld9 ...
Who said you can do that?
Last I checked, the 97' and 00-02 Superchared PCM's are Speed Density ONLY. It requires reflashing the OS on the stock PCM's to change the fueling schemes from Alpha-N to speed density...and you can't switch back to Alpha-N without having the OS reflashed back from GM. Also, the ECO pcm does get switched to a Speed density fueling scheme when reflashed as any reputable OEM aftermarket boost option should. From what I have heard though, the problem is in the checksums, and not determining the subroutines.
And yes, the PCM's are physically different between the 00+ and 99-, so you won't be able to run the BCM from your 02+ ECO J-body with a 97' speed density PCM, which is why I only mentioned using a 00-02 supercharged PCM and harness.
that first one wasnt me it was shifted quoting other people.
as for jumping between code, if Gm can chage our tuning style why cant we. if they can go in and unlock speed density then whats stoping us?
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boobs now with Riboflabin"
Jcavi wrote:as for jumping between code, if Gm can chage our tuning style why cant we. if they can go in and unlock speed density then whats stoping us?
you really fail to grasp just how complex this is don't you?
This isn't something like jumping some pins or changing out a resistor.. they rewrite the entire ecu from the ground up.
I'm sure HPT could possibly facilitate a custom OS, but where is the market? Who would pay the extra credits on top of the $700 for the HPT setup?
This topic should be dead, there's much better options than this that are simpler, (somewhat) less expensive, and far more powerful.
I reiterate; stand alone ECU.
/thread
