Ok this is what i have to ask...
As of right now im running the GMPP reflash with my turbo setup. But wanna go with HPtuners this spring if i possibly can.
The Reflash uses a 2.5 bar MAP, so my question is, if i leave everything the same that the reflash calls for... Injectoers, Map yada yada. Is it possible to tune my car with the 2.5MAP without switching everything back to stock before the turbo setup?
I do know im gonna need a new ecu to use for tuning but i wanna leave everything else the way it is if i can...
Thanks
2004 Turbo cavalier 11PSI and blown!
If im understanding this right, you just want to use a different ecu and tune with hp tuners? thats it? Yes you can tune with the 2.5 bar.
BOOSTED BABY wrote:If im understanding this right, you just want to use a different ecu and tune with hp tuners? thats it? Yes you can tune with the 2.5 bar.
yea thats pretty much it... I just wanna change ECU and tune with HPT
2004 Turbo cavalier 11PSI and blown!
that works because HPT can't tune the eco-reflashed ecu due to disabled checksums and what not.
so the short answer is yes.
the only problem is the stock eco ecu doesn't use the map sensor to determine fueling.
so upgrading your map sensor doesn't accomplish squat since our ecus don't use it for any fueling maps (other than decel and other non-essential maps)
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:that works because HPT can't tune the eco-reflashed ecu due to disabled checksums and what not.
so the short answer is yes.
the only problem is the stock eco ecu doesn't use the map sensor to determine fueling.
so upgrading your map sensor doesn't accomplish squat since our ecus don't use it for any fueling maps (other than decel and other non-essential maps)
I alreay have the map sensor in cause i needed to use it with the GMPP Reflash. But i wanna keep it... Because it reads the boost where the stock 1 bar doesn't, am i correct?
Thats the only reason i am asking!
I just don't wanna have to change anything i have if i don't have to, except the ECU.
Just outta curiosity what does our ecu's use for fueling maps?
2004 Turbo cavalier 11PSI and blown!
EcoEnvy wrote:
Just outta curiosity what does our ecu's use for fueling maps?
I don't know much about the stock J-body pcm, but if your pcm uses map vs rpm to control spark timing, then it would be in your benefit to keep the 2.5 bar and scale the tables. Otherwise, I doubt it will do anything more than what PJ mentioned.
Regarding your fuel question...
The VE tables are setup for Alpha-N (TPS vs rpm). A turbo engine is more easily and FAAARRR more accurately tuned with a speed density (Map vs RPM) pcm, because an Alpha-N tune can't compensate for the wide possible ranges of engine load under a given throttle postion and rpm. People here still tune their turbo engines with their stock j-body Alpha-N pcm's, though... but it is certainly not the right way to do it.
....but to answer your original question of what it would take to run the stock tune with what you have...
You will have to change the injector constant to compensate for your large 550's and rescale map values (inserting values into fields above 1 bar as necessary) if you decide to keep the 2.5 bar map sensor. Other than that, you should be good to go.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
Sorry, not sure why I thought you had 550cc injectors, lol. But you will still have to change the injector constant to compensate for your larger injectors.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
Whalesac wrote:EcoEnvy wrote:
Just outta curiosity what does our ecu's use for fueling maps?
I don't know much about the stock J-body pcm, but if your pcm uses map vs rpm to control spark timing, then it would be in your benefit to keep the 2.5 bar and scale the tables. Otherwise, I doubt it will do anything more than what PJ mentioned.
Regarding your fuel question...
The VE tables are setup for Alpha-N (TPS vs rpm). A turbo engine is more easily and FAAARRR more accurately tuned with a speed density (Map vs RPM) pcm, because an Alpha-N tune can't compensate for the wide possible ranges of engine load under a given throttle postion and rpm. People here still tune their turbo engines with their stock j-body Alpha-N pcm's, though... but it is certainly not the right way to do it.
....but to answer your original question of what it would take to run the stock tune with what you have...
You will have to change the injector constant to compensate for your large 550's and rescale map values (inserting values into fields above 1 bar as necessary) if you decide to keep the 2.5 bar map sensor. Other than that, you should be good to go.
Very interesting stuff!!
I think that was a little more than what i was asking tho... all i was asking was if it was possible that i keep everying thing i have now and just retune a new ECU with HPT.
I know alot of varibles would need to be changed in order for me to do this... thats why Im not the one gonna be doing the tuning, its a friend that has HPT i was just wondering if it could be done with the setup i have now... the 370cc injectoers, 2.5 map ect ect!!
2004 Turbo cavalier 11PSI and blown!
like pj said, you can use the 2.5 map but its going to function the exact same as the stock one.
again, you can keep the 2.5 bar sensor but it won't matter, the ecu won't know any better.
GM reflashed ecus are converted to speed density tables (MAP vs RPM) so they can take into account engine load.
alpha-n (TPS vs RPM) cannot. a stock ecu is alpha-n. there's no way to convert it without the GM reflash, and when they reflash the eco pcm, they disable some checkvalues which makes HPT unable to read it.
you can scale your spark tables for the 2.5 bar sensor, but so far as fueling.. messing with the MAP accomplishes nothing since the factory jbody ecu doesn't use the MAP sensor to determine fuel injector pulsewidth.
If he uses the 2.5 map with the alpha-n won't that cvause problems? Reason I say this is we tried this on a 99 2.4 that we installed a GM charger on. When we installed the 2 bar map the reading the ECU got was half of 1 bar (example say 54KPA instead of 99KPA). This was WOT when we were seeing 5psi so we knew that was not right. It was easier to put the 1 bar back in and scale back the higher fields in the tune. I would think the Ecotec ECU and 2.5 map would work the same, but I have not tried it yet.
If it was me I would put a 1 bar map in for the eCU and use the 2 bar map to pull a signal into HPT so you have a boost reading in HPT for datalogging.
FU Tuning
if he uses a sensor with a different scale, the ignition map has to be recalibrated. but fuel will be generally unaffected.
certain deceleration tables do reference MAP for fueling purposes (such as 0% throttle situations) so they may have to be altered as well
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:if he uses a sensor with a different scale, the ignition map has to be recalibrated. but fuel will be generally unaffected.
certain deceleration tables do reference MAP for fueling purposes (such as 0% throttle situations) so they may have to be altered as well
Again I'm not sure on the Ecotec, but on the 2.4 I did not find any tables that map was for fuel only timing as you said, but when we swapped from a 1 bar to a 2 bar it did throw the fueling off. Mainly at idle (so maybe what you were saying). Still it would be easier to tune with a 1 bar over the 2.5 bar for timing .
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:if he uses a sensor with a different scale, the ignition map has to be recalibrated. but fuel will be generally unaffected.
certain deceleration tables do reference MAP for fueling purposes (such as 0% throttle situations) so they may have to be altered as well
Again I'm not sure on the Ecotec, but on the 2.4 I did not find any tables that map was for fuel only timing as you said, but when we swapped from a 1 bar to a 2 bar it did throw the fueling off. Mainly at idle (so maybe what you were saying). Still it would be easier to tune with a 1 bar over the 2.5 bar for timing .
How do you expect to adjust timing once you start spooling with a 1 bar? A 1 bar has a higher resolution, so it would be easier to tune a NA engine or when out of boost...but once map pressure starts rising above 14.7 psia, a 1 bar will be maxed out and you will have no way to tune.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
Whalesac wrote:John Higgins wrote:DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:if he uses a sensor with a different scale, the ignition map has to be recalibrated. but fuel will be generally unaffected.
certain deceleration tables do reference MAP for fueling purposes (such as 0% throttle situations) so they may have to be altered as well
Again I'm not sure on the Ecotec, but on the 2.4 I did not find any tables that map was for fuel only timing as you said, but when we swapped from a 1 bar to a 2 bar it did throw the fueling off. Mainly at idle (so maybe what you were saying). Still it would be easier to tune with a 1 bar over the 2.5 bar for timing .
How do you expect to adjust timing once you start spooling with a 1 bar? A 1 bar has a higher resolution, so it would be easier to tune a NA engine or when out of boost...but once map pressure starts rising above 14.7 psia, a 1 bar will be maxed out and you will have no way to tune.
How I would still use the 2.5 bar sensor to input to HPT. I would do a fake 2 bar map like most do. That is how. It was easier for me to tune using the 1 bar map than using the 2 map on a 2.4 with a GM charger. Maybe others find it easier to tune using the 2 bar or 2.5 bar. I don't. I was giving my advice.
FU Tuning
I'm still lost. GM MAP sensors have a 0-5v sweep. How does telling the computer 5v = 2 bar change anything when the sensor will always output 5v over 1 bar? I've heard of the fake 2 bar before, but if that's what you guys are refering to, then thank god you can't tune speed density, lol.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
ok you guys are seriously making this way too complicated.
here's screen shots to drive the nail in this damn topic.
STOCK ecotec PCM tables:
VE idle and coastdown tables... situations where you're NOT touching the gas pedal (ie. 0% throttle input) so the ecu MUST reference something other than TPS... enter the MAP sensor...
under normal running conditions however, the car references these tables for fueling.. note the LACK of the MAP sensor here:
whats the MAP sensor primarily used for? these...
spark tables... all of them use the MAP sensor.
if you use a sensor with a different scale, you must rescale your ignition tables and your idle/ decel tables accordingly. since low voltage (even tho its a positive pressure reading) will cause the ecu to have timing fairly advanced and you will hurt things. all your ecu sees is voltage... 5v on a 1bar map isn't the same as 5v on a 2.5bar map.. this is where we get problems with advanced timing and boost with bad things happening.
to the OP: why not just run the reflash? i don't understand the need for an HPT'd ecu.. the factory programming blows and HPT can't help it much.. its just a limitation of our ecus
PJ I totally understand what you are saying. I do not think Whalesac does. It sounds as if he thinks when you plug in the 2.5 bar the ECU now reads that way. Wish it was that easy
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:PJ I totally understand what you are saying. I do not think Whalesac does. It sounds as if he thinks when you plug in the 2.5 bar the ECU now reads that way. Wish it was that easy
That's not at all what I was saying. I think we all misunderstood each other...lol.
When you hook up a 1 bar, 2 bar, 2.5 bar, etc sensor, they all will have a 0-5V sweep with 0V refering to 0 psia and 5V refering to their highest reading (i.e. 1 bar = 14.7psia, 2 bar = 29.4psia, etc). I thought you were saying that you were using a 1 bar
sensor with your GM supercharger. So once you reach 14.7psia the sensor is maxed out at 5v, it will just keep reading 5v no matter how much higher the manifold pressure goes...which was why I was very confused by what you said, lol. I thought that was implied when I said earlier that you have to rescale the map values for the 2.5 bar sensor...oh well.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
Whalesac wrote:John Higgins wrote:PJ I totally understand what you are saying. I do not think Whalesac does. It sounds as if he thinks when you plug in the 2.5 bar the ECU now reads that way. Wish it was that easy
That's not at all what I was saying. I think we all misunderstood each other...lol.
When you hook up a 1 bar, 2 bar, 2.5 bar, etc sensor, they all will have a 0-5V sweep with 0V refering to 0 psia and 5V refering to their highest reading (i.e. 1 bar = 14.7psia, 2 bar = 29.4psia, etc). I thought you were saying that you were using a 1 bar sensor with your GM supercharger. So once you reach 14.7psia the sensor is maxed out at 5v, it will just keep reading 5v no matter how much higher the manifold pressure goes...which was why I was very confused by what you said, lol. I thought that was implied when I said earlier that you have to rescale the map values for the 2.5 bar sensor...oh well.
We installed a GM charger on a pre 2000 cavy. Which can not use the Gm reflash. Because of this we did use the 1 bar map sensor. This made tuning the timing much easier at the time. So you are correct in part of what you thought I said.
FU Tuning
Ok I have a couple questions.
First,
is there anyway to even just view the supercharger reflash file with HPT? My wife has it in her sunfire and I just wanted to look at it.
Second,
I have turbocharger on my car and from what I understand I can keep my stock map in my car and tune it? If so what would be my limit?
Thanks. hope those aren't dumb questions
Ecoclean wrote:Ok I have a couple questions.
First,
is there anyway to even just view the supercharger reflash file with HPT? My wife has it in her sunfire and I just wanted to look at it.
Second,
I have turbocharger on my car and from what I understand I can keep my stock map in my car and tune it? If so what would be my limit?
Thanks. hope those aren't dumb questions
1 question Yes. Just read her ECU with HPT. You do not have to register the file to view it.
2 question. Yes. Your limit will be more on the timing side because timing is done with the map sensor. Read up on faking a 2 bar map
FU Tuning
John Higgins wrote:Ecoclean wrote:Ok I have a couple questions.
First,
is there anyway to even just view the supercharger reflash file with HPT? My wife has it in her sunfire and I just wanted to look at it.
Second,
I have turbocharger on my car and from what I understand I can keep my stock map in my car and tune it? If so what would be my limit?
Thanks. hope those aren't dumb questions
1 question Yes. Just read her ECU with HPT. You do not have to register the file to view it.
2 question. Yes. Your limit will be more on the timing side because timing is done with the map sensor. Read up on faking a 2 bar map
ok I can't seem to view her file on my computer. I just want to seem the numbers on it
and I will look into the 2 bar fake map. I was only think about running 10 psi at first or maybe 12psi on my car
Ecoclean wrote:John Higgins wrote:Ecoclean wrote:Ok I have a couple questions.
First,
is there anyway to even just view the supercharger reflash file with HPT? My wife has it in her sunfire and I just wanted to look at it.
Second,
I have turbocharger on my car and from what I understand I can keep my stock map in my car and tune it? If so what would be my limit?
Thanks. hope those aren't dumb questions
1 question Yes. Just read her ECU with HPT. You do not have to register the file to view it.
2 question. Yes. Your limit will be more on the timing side because timing is done with the map sensor. Read up on faking a 2 bar map
ok I can't seem to view her file on my computer. I just want to seem the numbers on it
and I will look into the 2 bar fake map. I was only think about running 10 psi at first or maybe 12psi on my car
Why can't you view it? Are you getting a error code? You should be able to view it.
FU Tuning
I just realized, is your girls car a Ecotec? If so you might not be able to read it. I know you can't modify a Ecotec Gm charger tune, but I have never tried to read one so not sure if it will allow you to. PJ or someone else might be able to verify this.
FU Tuning
