Ok guys here are my questions. And YES i SEARCHED AND READ EVERY POST I COULD BEFORE ASKING.
1. what option is the best for tuning the 98-00 2200?
2. What path is going to provide the least problems and perform the most functions?
3. If Hp-tuners is that good, then why do people still go to stand alones and don't say because of the whole 1 bar 2 bar 3 bar sensor deal?
4. What have you used to tune your turbo 2200?
5. Why did you go the route you did?
6.What companies are most willing to support there end users when it comes to trouble shooting/tuning?
Before i am sent to the dogs on these questions take in to consideration the fact that i am a novice in the eyes of a seasoned veteran who has built NHRA drag cars or stuff along those lines. If you do not think i have actually searched and read threw all the postings of Haltech units, FAST XFI, AEM EMS, Megasquirt, Hp-tuners your wrong because i have. What is left un-turned is a true feedback saying hey this is what we have used and these were the cons or the pros and why it out ways the other.
Everybody on here that Tunes there cars is kind of biased against the unknown like say a guy knows Hp-tuners but not Mega-squirt says "ahh Hp-tuners is the way to go the other sucks."
But who here has used or tuned several stand alones/ Piggy back units or Hp-tuners? I want some actual feed back from people that have used a wide variety so that way i get a no biased opinion. If that makes sense. I'm just getting to the phase where i need to make a choice and i want to make the right one not just the one that is popular or cheapest.
well my cars not a 2200 or a turbo. its currently only been tuned with HPT.
some of the benefits i can think of for it are that its not a piggy back system. the fact that you dont have to start hacking and splicing wires is a definite appeal to me. there are alot of things you can do and accomplish with HPT and for some people it seems to have a less steep learning curve, but thats not true to about all.
With HPT, you can datalog. the datalogging is probably the most powerful part of the software package. its great to be able to write and re-write the ECU, but whats the point if what your changing doesnt need to be changed or needs more adjustment.
as far as its cons, HPT is never going to give us anymore than we already have. people have asked about custom OS's, thats just not going to happen any time soon. if thats what your looking for, stick around and wait for Shifted ECU that hes working on. last i remember reading its pretty much going to blow everything else out of the water, but i havent followed that thread in a very long time.
other cons for HPT, no tuning on the fly, or ECU's just dont support it. most of the piggy backs i can think of may or may not do this as well, that i dont know.
as for some of the piggy backs like mega squirt, to some they can be a pain to install. if your fairly mechanically and electrically inclined, may not be so bad. but others find it a real PITA.
this is by far not a complete pro and con list, just some of the stuff ive noticed from experience and reading on here.
1997 Cavalier Z24 - 16.3 in 1320 and falling...
Well my skill level is pretty high id say considering the facts:
1. I pulled my engine and put it back by myself.
2. the entire turbo aspect that i am setting up has been done solely by myself and with little to no help
3. My job isn't mechanical (computer technician) but after 7 years of being a network admin and all the pc repair and break fix i have done electrical does not scare me.
I just get sick of making the wrong choices when it comes to this car. Maybe its because i have been sent out to the wash on so many aspects.
The car is not daily driven and probably never will be again. So the sky is the limit. I would say money is no object but who am i kidding i have a cavalier not a ferrari so obviously there is a limitation.
I guess i have my heart set on a FAST unit but i do not want to spend $1800 and then i find out i could have done it way easier and cheaper with a megasquirt or HPTuners.
Josh G. wrote:
Everybody on here that Tunes there cars is kind of biased against the unknown like say a guy knows Hp-tuners but not Mega-squirt says "ahh Hp-tuners is the way to go the other sucks."
Not true, most people who actually know how to tune.... Know Better.
I would go w/ the MoTeC Exhaust and Standalone FMS. Its the best you can get for 10gs.
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
I have tuned quite few of these systems. Ron's question to you,(in my eyes) is the most important thing you can ask yourself. Your repsonse with you being able to "build" your own engine and your fabrication and computer skills really doesn't mean jack sh!t as far as tuning though. You kneed to understand what is actually going on inside the engine, what changes you make in the PCM and how they affect the engine. In theory any of the systems you have mentioned will work. Just depends on how much you want to spend and your tuning knowledge. Alot of the systems you mentioned also do not have lots of customer support and most of the time you will need to start from scratch just to get the vehicle to run. My personal preference would be HPT. You do not need a 2-3 bar map sensor, you just need to know how to tune the Alpha-N to give you the results you want. I personally try to stay away from piggybacks for reasons of adding another piece to the puzzle. Bottom line is to each their own.. Whatever you decide to do I am sure people will try to help you along the way....
P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq
BlackEco wrote:[
Not true, most people who actually know how to tune.... Know Better.
I would go w/ the MoTeC Exhaust and Standalone FMS. Its the best you can get for 10gs.
see this is what i expected. quotes from F n F and
comments. I appreciate the small insight i have gotten but the fact of the matter is no one having a educated response about other systems and our platforms still leaves me scratching my head.
Is any one on here that is running a FAST XFI unit? if so are you still using the factory ECU?
I guess the best question to sum everything up and make it easy on every one is this. If i go to a stand alone will i be forced to use the factory ECU in order to have my cluster and factory features still working?
If i can make the cluster work with a stand alone and not using the factory ecu then i guess i would say thats my direction. If not then i am either forced to piggy back or go HPTuners and just remap my stock ECU.
Im not trying to be a dick i just want real anwser's and not some
comments. But then again im should know thats par for the course on the .ORG
ImPhat0260/Cavattack2000 wrote:I have tuned quite few of these systems. Ron's question to you,(in my eyes) is the most important thing you can ask yourself. Your repsonse with you being able to "build" your own engine and your fabrication and computer skills really doesn't mean jack sh!t as far as tuning though. You kneed to understand what is actually going on inside the engine, what changes you make in the PCM and how they affect the engine. In theory any of the systems you have mentioned will work. Just depends on how much you want to spend and your tuning knowledge. Alot of the systems you mentioned also do not have lots of customer support and most of the time you will need to start from scratch just to get the vehicle to run. My personal preference would be HPT. You do not need a 2-3 bar map sensor, you just need to know how to tune the Alpha-N to give you the results you want. I personally try to stay away from piggybacks for reasons of adding another piece to the puzzle. Bottom line is to each their own.. Whatever you decide to do I am sure people will try to help you along the way....
yeah as far as tuning i am definetly not doing it myself because honestly i know nothing about it. im not going to act like i do because i dont. You guys talk about AFR and stoich and lean it means nothing to me. Yes i know what it actually means but in the sense of being able to tune and know where i am and where i need to adjust i dont have a clue. it would be a major learning process for me. which i guess is not a bad thing like i said im just new to the concept of tuning a car's ECU.
if its a piggy back system then yes you will need your factory ECU. if its a true stand alone, seeing as yours is a 98 and doesnt have a BCM, you may be able to get the gauges to work without the original ECU.
if your so worried about adding more crap and still having an ECU, then get HPT instead as there is nothing else to add or wire in. if your so hell bent on this FAST XFI unit, then just get it. im not trying to be a dick or anything, but its your car not mine or anyone elses. if it was mine i would have ordered HPT already.
1997 Cavalier Z24 - 16.3 in 1320 and falling...
HPT will give you tune ability but is that what your looking for?
I would look into HPT if you need to tune, but if you want to go really advanced, you may want to look into megasquirt as a aftermarket option.
hpt is good for learning the ins and outs of tuning, or to tune a mildly modified all motor car, or if you're really saucy... a supercharged car...not a turbo charged car.
I've said this a million times, and I'll say it again....
Jbody ecus are Alpha-n.. meaning they use TPS and RPM to dictate fueling. This doesn't take into account engine load (ie. boost) like a Speed density system would.
If you want to boost, I'd strongly suggest running megasquirt or some other stand alone. HPT simply cannot deliver reliable, trustworthy tuning due to our monkey-$hit ecus.
piggyback systems also will not work. the only real solution is a stand-alone like Megasquirt or Spectre EMS... or more expensive counterparts like MSD MEFI, MoTeC m400, TEC-3, F.A.S.T., Accel DFI, AEM EMS, etc etc
running a turbo on an HPT'd car in my eyes is playing with fire. Fluctuations in boost pressure cannot be compensated for because alpha-n assumes engine load is constant. In the real world, it isn't.
But answer shifted's question first... how far do you want to take it? when you have a realistic answer, choosing the path to get there will be simple.
knowing how far you want to go can narrow the list down to a few systems and then from there you can base your decision on other variables like cost, availability, etc.
for example; an all motor car would be interested in an alpha-n fueling, whereas a boosted car would want something based on MAP. Also, a high boost car wouldn't want a system limited to 2 bar, while a low boost car wouldn't need a system that supports up to 5 bar.
you have to buy what you need, but you have to dictate what you want before you can decide whats needed to run it. Also take into consideration headroom for future upgrades and growth. Don't want to buy a whole new system everytime you want to do a slight upgrade.
Ok so here is my thing. Once i get the car tuned i don't plan on changing the tune daily or on the fly. I am more looking at it like this. I want a unit that i can have some one tune for me and if i need to make changes in the future as far as adding more power/boost/fuel/nitrous i can just take the car back and they can tune it for me. call me chicken @!#$ all you want but i don't know much at all about tuning nor do i want to learn on my own with all the money tied up in this engine.
Is Megasquirt really reliable? like whitegoose said i am hell bent on the FAST unit i just want to know that some one is running it already. I mean honestly thats probably what i will do regardless but i kind of want a perspective of opinions on the topic before i make my final decision. From what i gather on here a lot of people go HPT because there cars are daily driven and they do not want to go threw the wiring process and do everything that i will have to do with a true full stand alone.
Go ahead and crowd my statement with all the hate by saying no its the greatest thing for cavaliers since slice bread but i have yet to have some one on here say hey i own a shop i have tuned all the examples you asked about and this is why we choose to go this direction over another.
I guess in not so many words i do not want to know what is the best price and time wise i want to know what is going to be the most valuable tuning wise out of the group period. And please spare me the people that have an Intake and a tune with the comments because honestly your two cents are not worth me reading.
Josh G. wrote:Ok so here is my thing. Once i get the car tuned i don't plan on changing the tune daily or on the fly. I am more looking at it like this. I want a unit that i can have some one tune for me and if i need to make changes in the future as far as adding more power/boost/fuel/nitrous i can just take the car back and they can tune it for me. call me chicken @!#$ all you want but i don't know much at all about tuning nor do i want to learn on my own with all the money tied up in this engine.
Is Megasquirt really reliable? like whitegoose said i am hell bent on the FAST unit i just want to know that some one is running it already. I mean honestly thats probably what i will do regardless but i kind of want a perspective of opinions on the topic before i make my final decision. From what i gather on here a lot of people go HPT because there cars are daily driven and they do not want to go threw the wiring process and do everything that i will have to do with a true full stand alone.
Go ahead and crowd my statement with all the hate by saying no its the greatest thing for cavaliers since slice bread but i have yet to have some one on here say hey i own a shop i have tuned all the examples you asked about and this is why we choose to go this direction over another.
I guess in not so many words i do not want to know what is the best price and time wise i want to know what is going to be the most valuable tuning wise out of the group period. And please spare me the people that have an Intake and a tune with the comments because honestly your two cents are not worth me reading.
that being said... this thread is a waste of bandwidth.
Ask the person who's going to tune your car what they recommend you buy.
You admit to knowing nothing about tuning, so I'm not sure what any of our explanations will accomplish...
spoon feeding isn't a popular commodity around here, and is usually a one-way ticket to being flamed.
Is your automatic transmission electronically controlled (I.E. 4t40e)? If so, do you plan on swapping to a manual transmission?
I'm almost certain FAST doesn't have transmission control for their standalone EMS system. HPT and I believe the TEC-3 have control for GM transmissions. If Bowling and Grippo would hurry their asses up with the GPIO board, so would Megasquirt (at least MS-II would). That's something else you might want to keep in mind, especially considering I see in your profile that you have the Mantapart sport camshaft. What good is having all of this power when you can't even use it?
I personally use MS-II and love the huge support they have via message boards on msefi.com, and with frequent updates to code often adding new features that weren't in previous codes. Plus, it is open source, so if you know how to program (although from what you have said so far, I take it you don't) and know the limitations/speed of the hardware they use, you can write your own code to do just about anything your little heart desires.
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"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - APU wrote:
that being said... this thread is a waste of bandwidth.
Ask the person who's going to tune your car what they recommend you buy.
You admit to knowing nothing about tuning, so I'm not sure what any of our explanations will accomplish...
spoon feeding isn't a popular commodity around here, and is usually a one-way ticket to being flamed.
QFT!
___________________________________________________________________
Mitsu TD06-20g |3" Downpipe w/ Cutout | 61mm Bored TB |
HP Tuners | Innovate WB02 | Spec Stage 3 | TurboTech Upper | Full Addco Sways | Sportlines & Yellows |
i can honestly say i have played with hpt and megasquirt extensively. on the megasquirt end i jumped on the bandwagon well before pre-fab units were available and couldnt sucessfully build a reliable ms ecu using what was available to me at the time. I have a turbo 2200 that has been tuned using hp tuners sitting in my driveway. theres a secret i tried to advertise in the forums a while ago, but the 2200 ecu's will accept and run the 2.4l supercharged reflash, which is a 2 bar map based tuning rather than alpha-n. it seems to be the limit to hptuners because a 2-bar setup wont see more than 15psi unless you use a "fake setup" and then you start losing tuning resolution and ultimatelly tuning ability. if 15lbs or less is your goal then hptuners and the 2.4 s/c reflash(non eco) will be the cheapest way to get a tunable setup. you can easily go on the tune repository on hptuners website and download an ecu reflash somebody posted from their reflashed ecm. you simply pay to unlock the vin number, change the vin to your vin, and flash the program. theftlock must also be turned off too, but is doable from hptuners.
megasquirt is more of a straight up tune, its a pretty basic speed density tune without any extra modifiers. the hptuners lets you edit and modify parameters that factories build into their computers for driveability.
megasquirt will be a wiring nightmare, especially if you choose one of their later revisions that can control spark, run sequential injection, etc. if you have programming knowledge it is easily expandable to add for example a nitrous controller.
hptuners keeps your car inspection legal in all states, whereas megasquirt may not. other manufacturers may have carb certification that make them legal but i do not know of any at the moment.
"...and then God said let the 2.2's have potential. Thats when hell broke loose..."
