General Motors is confident that its Saturn Vue Green Line will save fuel - at a price that makes it easier for buyers to swallow the extra cost of a hybrid.
Mark LaNeve, GM North America vice president of vehicle sales, service and marketing, says a premium of $1,000 to $1,500 is "in the neighborhood" of what GM will charge for the gasoline-electric hybrid scheduled to arrive next summer.Other automakers, such as Ford, Honda and Toyota, charge a premium of $3,000 to $5,000 for their hybrids.
A front-wheel-drive, four-cylinder version of the 2006 Saturn Vue has a sticker price of $17,990, including shipping.
When it comes to fuel economy, LaNeve says, the Vue Green Line will be a reasonably priced hybrid alternative. Because of the price point we will charge for it, the Vue will pay for itself over a three-year period on fuel economy. LaNeve says, "You'll save about a tank a month."
The 2007 model will be GM's first high-volume gasoline-electric hybrid. Another Saturn hybrid also is expected, but GM hasn't disclosed which nameplate it will use.
Steve Tarnowsky, assistant chief engineer for the Saturn Vue hybrid, says the vehicle's electric motor will be used for starting and stopping and for a boost on acceleration. The Vue's electric motor won't propel the vehicle by itself at low speeds, which will help reduce engineering costs. He promises the Vue will represent "the best value" on the market. There will be very good payback. He would not disclose volume estimates for the Vue Green Line.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
Good idea, Gay name.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Nathaniel wrote:awesome.
everyone is STARTing to go in the right direction.
why dont they make a diesel electric hybrid vue THAT would be AWESOME
How do we know what will be the right way? Maybe in 5-10 years time we won't even have hybrids... In the early days of automobile production, there was no set path that said we were going to use gasoline only. The original Model T's were able to run on almost anything that was liquid and would burn. There were healthy markets for steam and electric (only) cars well into the 1920's!
All these years later, cars are tremendously different. But why shackle ourselves to an incredibly complex arrangement like a hybrid? Diesels offer 90% of the same capability with a very small economic penalty. Why not take the same efforts and develop a way to use alternate fuels, (esp. ethanol) that would be beneficial to our country?
I feel that hybrids are 'much ado about not much' to paraphrase Shakespeare. They are expensive to purchase (even with tax credits), and will be expensive to maintain (wait til you replace that battery pack). The cars are very complex (did Toyota ever figure out why they will suddenly quit on you?) and potentially dangerous to first responders. Besides, they are STILL burning gasoline, just less of it. No way to break the shackles there...
Converting our existing fleet to bio-diesel and ethanol has added benefits. We can do it, and quickly if we wanted to (I won't get into the political aspects here), and we can use our existing infrastructure. Diesels need no modifications, most recent gasoline burning cars would probably need an ECU re-flash.
Just my $0.42 worth...
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
^ lol
did i NOT say that the best would be a diesel electric hybrid???
i have gone into DETAIL on every aspect u have spoken on, in which u are wrong on most your points.
check the war forum for the hybrid post.
hybrids ARE the way.... CURRENTLY
we have to do somethign NOW to ease the cost of driving. hybrid is THE way to go NOW AND near future UNTIL we find a completely diff fuel not utilizing fossil fuels.
hybrids are NOT expensive to maintain. the battery packs do not need replacing till near the end of the vehicles life. and while u do need to replace them to get extra longevity at the end of a cars life it is still cheaper over all then constant maintenance on a all gas vehicle especially ones over 100k
they ARE NOT expensive to purchase. as was shown by the VUE IN THIS POST. its only 1k extra. as for the other hybrids. u get 2k+ tex credit PLUS TONS of local benifits ie car pool lane all the time, some places offer free public parking etc... and then if there is anythign still more expensive then its all gas counterpart it is QUICKLY made up through gas savings, as was said in THIS POST. the 1k extra is made up on the vue within 3 years.
and i dont even know why u went off talking about rigs. we are talking about consumer cars.
anyways go check my post in the war forum. youll learn ALOT
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Nathaniel wrote:^ lol
did i NOT say that the best would be a diesel electric hybrid???
i have gone into DETAIL on every aspect u have spoken on, in which u are wrong on most your points.
check the war forum for the hybrid post.
I did. I see you took a lot of crap. Nothing on there really un-convinced me, however. The cars are still more expensive, and the tax credits are kind of so-so. Some of the other benefits are great if you live in that state, but those aren't a universal benefit to everyone. Honestly, if we would all keep our tires inflated to proper specs, we could save more fuel without changing our vehicles. How many of us are running around with under inflated tires, dirty air filter elements, etc..?
Nathaniel wrote: hybrids ARE the way.... CURRENTLY
we have to do somethign NOW to ease the cost of driving. hybrid is THE way to go NOW AND near future UNTIL we find a completely diff fuel not utilizing fossil fuels.
Getting away from fossil fuels is what I'm after. See my many posts on this idea. They're much further back in the year, I don't always take time to post here.
Nathaniel wrote: hybrids are NOT expensive to maintain. the battery packs do not need replacing till near the end of the vehicles life. and while u do need to replace them to get extra longevity at the end of a cars life it is still cheaper over all then constant maintenance on a all gas vehicle especially ones over 100k
The expense argument is partly true. It depends upon how many miles you drive per year and how long you keep the car. If you keep the car a long time, you have the added DISincentive of having to replace the battery packs AND maintain a fuel burning engine for 100-150-200k miles. If you are careful, you can get a gasoline burning car to those mileages without replacing major components such as the engine or transmission.
Nathaniel wrote: they ARE NOT expensive to purchase. as was shown by the VUE IN THIS POST. its only 1k extra. as for the other hybrids. u get 2k+ tex credit PLUS TONS of local benifits ie car pool lane all the time, some places offer free public parking etc... and then if there is anythign still more expensive then its all gas counterpart it is QUICKLY made up through gas savings, as was said in THIS POST. the 1k extra is made up on the vue within 3 years.
No doubt GM priced the car right. It's still not in the same league as a hybrid Civic or Prius, but at least there's an incentive for people who want to go that route.
Nathaniel wrote: and i dont even know why u went off talking about rigs. we are talking about consumer cars.
I think you may have misread my comments about bio-diesel, but they could be applied to any diesel powered vehicle, including combinations. Read my earlier post again. Nothing about 18 wheelers. I guess the word 'fleet' may have got you going in that direction, but I'm referring to ALL vehicles on the road, not a specific fleet of someone's vehicles.
Nathaniel wrote: anyways go check my post in the war forum. youll learn ALOT
I keep up on this stuff pretty well myself, thanks. I'm surprised that no one has referenced the many articles from wired.com. They are the ones that I usually like to reference, mostly because they seem to be pretty well researched. There were some Prius only websites that I had in my older bookmarks, but they seem to have gone away when I upgraded my browser. They were really good and technical, but I guess that's why Google exists...
Nathaniel, my point is this and always has been this: Hybrids are a lot of complication. Two separate but interlinked motive systems, no matter how reliable are still (eventually) going to be twice the price.
We may be in the beginnings of a hybrid period of time, or we may find in 10 (or more, or less) years that hybrids are not the answer.
Time will tell. Good luck on saving up for that hybrid. You will offset my GTO when I get it!
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
the myths about replacing the bats has been booted. u WILL have to replace them, but not till near the end of when a person would be getting into a diff car. and when they do get replaced they are NOT expensive as the anti hybrids say they are
they are VERY simple nickle metal hydride batts. plain and simple.
and just because there are 2 propulsion technologies working together does NOT mean it costs twice as much to drive maintain and fix....
the gas engine will last MUCH longer since usualyl they are MUCH smaller engines and do not get as much wear due to better aerodynamics in most low rolling resistance tires and the fact that the electric propells the car for most city driving.
there are WAYYYYY more pros then cons to hybrids.
wether it is or ISNT the way of 25 years from now, who knows. but it IS what needs to be done now. because like i said we have to have SOMETHING NOW. and hybrids fit the bill. and diesel electric hybrids may be the future for a LONG time, if they ever come out with them.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
hmm better gas millage then a regular suv....2 grand cheaper then a hyrbid without sacraficing much MPG....
im thinking great idea GM, should be a hit if it's reliable
Nathaniel wrote:the myths about replacing the bats has been booted. u WILL have to replace them, but not till near the end of when a person would be getting into a diff car. and when they do get replaced they are NOT expensive as the anti hybrids say they are
they are VERY simple nickle metal hydride batts. plain and simple.
and just because there are 2 propulsion technologies working together does NOT mean it costs twice as much to drive maintain and fix....
the gas engine will last MUCH longer since usualyl they are MUCH smaller engines and do not get as much wear due to better aerodynamics in most low rolling resistance tires and the fact that the electric propells the car for most city driving.
there are WAYYYYY more pros then cons to hybrids.
wether it is or ISNT the way of 25 years from now, who knows. but it IS what needs to be done now. because like i said we have to have SOMETHING NOW. and hybrids fit the bill. and diesel electric hybrids may be the future for a LONG time, if they ever come out with them.
The only thing that I could respond to any of your assertions is that we need something now. Since the hybrids have only been on the roads here in the 'States for a short time, I still believe there is much to be discovered.
However, bio-diesel (for example) is just about a drop-in replacement for dino diesel. With the right equipment, ethanol can be a drop-in replacement for gasoline. This can be done
now, using existing infrastructure. No extra propulsion units meaning we don't have to radically modify existing vehicles. Tax breaks can be applied in different segments of the market, from producers to users to accelerate the adoption of such fuels.
Look at the Brazilian auto market. All of the major producers there (Including the US makes) produce cars that can use any combination of fuel that range from 100% gasoline to 100% ethanol. We could learn from their example how to adopt it to our country. Domestically, the big three auto producers have recently released selected models that will run on gas-ethanol blends that use as much as 85% ethanol (E85). Michigan has recently enacted legislation that requires us to use 5% ethanol, and IIRC, Minnesota uses 20% in their summer gasoline blend
We use B20 in our shop's Freightliner (Mercedes) Sprinter delivery van. We use B20 because that's what's available in our area. Before we purchased the van, I asked weather related questions specifically because of my previous experiences with diesels. The salesman assured me we would not have many issues with diesel (bio or dino) and even suggested that bio-diesel would enhance the life of our engine and yield less pollutants that dino-diesel. By the way, I should point out that I live in Michigan and we have not experienced any adverse effects from our (freakin') cold weather. Oh, and we do
NOT garage our delivery van.
In one of your posts on the war forum you said this:
but of course the long term goal really has to be to get completely away from gasoline.
That is exactly what I'm advocating. We can get away from gasoline, pretty quickly if we were motivated enough. We can do this, with our own materials, without having to resort to fundamentally changing the vehicles we drive.
BTW, Dennis who posted about the 2-stroke VVT diesel: About 10-12 years ago the Big 3 tried showing 2-stroke gas engines (I remember seeing one in a Neon), but I think the EPA shot that idea down. Too many emissions due to the lubrication, at least at that time. But, a 2-stroke diesel would have INCREDIBLE torque!
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
i guess i just need to make my car run alcohol
other cars, better cars?
maybe they should make a synthectic fuel ? somethign that burns cleaner (like bio diesl but bio-gasoline)
CodeRedZ24 (aka Geeds) wrote:maybe they should make a synthectic fuel ? somethign that burns cleaner (like bio diesl but bio-gasoline)
is not a bad idea if it will run clean
geozinger wrote:Nathaniel wrote:the myths about replacing the bats has been booted. u WILL have to replace them, but not till near the end of when a person would be getting into a diff car. and when they do get replaced they are NOT expensive as the anti hybrids say they are
they are VERY simple nickle metal hydride batts. plain and simple.
and just because there are 2 propulsion technologies working together does NOT mean it costs twice as much to drive maintain and fix....
the gas engine will last MUCH longer since usualyl they are MUCH smaller engines and do not get as much wear due to better aerodynamics in most low rolling resistance tires and the fact that the electric propells the car for most city driving.
there are WAYYYYY more pros then cons to hybrids.
wether it is or ISNT the way of 25 years from now, who knows. but it IS what needs to be done now. because like i said we have to have SOMETHING NOW. and hybrids fit the bill. and diesel electric hybrids may be the future for a LONG time, if they ever come out with them.
The only thing that I could respond to any of your assertions is that we need something now. Since the hybrids have only been on the roads here in the 'States for a short time, I still believe there is much to be discovered.
However, bio-diesel (for example) is just about a drop-in replacement for dino diesel. With the right equipment, ethanol can be a drop-in replacement for gasoline. This can be done now, using existing infrastructure. No extra propulsion units meaning we don't have to radically modify existing vehicles. Tax breaks can be applied in different segments of the market, from producers to users to accelerate the adoption of such fuels.
Look at the Brazilian auto market. All of the major producers there (Including the US makes) produce cars that can use any combination of fuel that range from 100% gasoline to 100% ethanol. We could learn from their example how to adopt it to our country. Domestically, the big three auto producers have recently released selected models that will run on gas-ethanol blends that use as much as 85% ethanol (E85). Michigan has recently enacted legislation that requires us to use 5% ethanol, and IIRC, Minnesota uses 20% in their summer gasoline blend
We use B20 in our shop's Freightliner (Mercedes) Sprinter delivery van. We use B20 because that's what's available in our area. Before we purchased the van, I asked weather related questions specifically because of my previous experiences with diesels. The salesman assured me we would not have many issues with diesel (bio or dino) and even suggested that bio-diesel would enhance the life of our engine and yield less pollutants that dino-diesel. By the way, I should point out that I live in Michigan and we have not experienced any adverse effects from our (freakin') cold weather. Oh, and we do NOT garage our delivery van.
In one of your posts on the war forum you said this: but of course the long term goal really has to be to get completely away from gasoline.
That is exactly what I'm advocating. We can get away from gasoline, pretty quickly if we were motivated enough. We can do this, with our own materials, without having to resort to fundamentally changing the vehicles we drive.
BTW, Dennis who posted about the 2-stroke VVT diesel: About 10-12 years ago the Big 3 tried showing 2-stroke gas engines (I remember seeing one in a Neon), but I think the EPA shot that idea down. Too many emissions due to the lubrication, at least at that time. But, a 2-stroke diesel would have INCREDIBLE torque!
we are both sayign the same thing, so i dont know why we are debating anything. we both think we need to get away from gasoline
however, i DO believe a bio diesel hybrid is THE best choice currently in my mind. why? plain and simple efficiency. while eth is all well and good and can be made for every car to use, cars are just not efficient enough.
u seem to think that eth should be used and nothign else should be changed. which would mean ur not very concerned abotu efficiency, only replacement.
its not just abotu getting away from gasoline. its about learnign from our mistakes and understand we need to have cars that use their fuel efficiently, no matter what that fuel is.
just some examples.
a jetta on gas gets what... at best 25-28 mpg
a jetta on eth gets the same as above (unless eth gets better gas mileage... i am not sure)
a jetta on bio diesel gets 60+ mpg
a jetta gas hybrid if kept the same rates as most other hybrids would get around 50 mpg
a jetta bio diesel hybrid would get something like 90 mpg
so while yes eth would be a great thing to do RIGHT NOW... it is NOT something that the automotive industry should base their future platforms on... why? because we need to move FORWARD. and eth only replaces what we are doing nw but keeping the same in efficient engines and drive system technology. money should be getting used making the propulsion systems that can be implemented now, but are paving the way for the future.
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Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
We should be using more gasohol imo. It is renewable atleast and clean.
As for using the name "Green Line," excellent name. Now GM/EPA lets see the numbers.
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
Nathaniel, what I'm saying is that we don't know how this will work out. You (and lots of others) are geeked about hybrids, I'm not. I think we can use alt fuels and use our current infrastructure (not to mention our current vehicles) while more R&D is done on what's next. Search my older posts, I would like to see us use hydrogen, but that looks like it's a distance away.
There are different definitions of efficiency, and one of which would be how quickly and least expensively we can switch from one form of energy to the next. Not everyone wants a hybrid. Are they coming? Sure. Do I want one? No, thanks. But I would like to have a choice of fuels/methods to use. I don't like being told this is the right way. With alt fuels, we have more choices.
Anyway, good luck saving up for the hybrid. Maybe by this time next year, GM will have a few more available and besides, Bill Ford promised to make his whole company hybrids. (j/k) You will have a lot to pick from. I just want the same on the fuel end.
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
