New SAE regs have caught Asian Manufacturers overstating rated HP.
Guess they're not so honest after all:
WASHINGTON -- After years of touting ever higher horsepower numbers to win new customers, Toyota Motor Corp., Honda Motor Co. and possibly other automakers are now backtracking on some of those claims.
Strict new tests developed by the industry's top engineering group are prompting the carmakers to roll back horsepower estimates on several key vehicles, including the Toyota Camry, America's best-selling car, and Honda's luxurious Acura RL.
For the 2006 model year, Toyota says its Camry equipped with a 3-liter V-6 engine generates 190 horsepower. In 2005, Toyota said the same car with the same engine had 210 horsepower.
The revised ratings comply with new Society of Automotive Engineers standards designed to eliminate subjective interpretation in establishing horsepower claims.
While Toyota and Honda are retesting their entire vehicle lineups, other automakers generally are retesting only cars and trucks with updated powertrains.
Over time, most automakers are expected to comply with the new guidelines, and horsepower ratings for other vehicles could be revised.
Detroit's automakers say they have been conservative in calculating horsepower and don't expect to have to reduce horsepower ratings on many vehicles. In fact, after retesting, the Big Three have revised horsepower ratings upward on several vehicles.
link
GM felt the effect it too. On the Northstar for 2006 DTS on HP and also XLR-V torque figure compared to what initially GM was reporting.
I dunno yet on Chrysler or Ford yet.
SAE got in a more accurate read and the new measurement is also compensating on synthetic oils as well.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
I can see why.
Who is going to put a stock camry on a dyno?
I would be truthful for things like the celica where people might actually put it on a dyno, but things like minivans and camrys and avalons I would just boost it up too because nobody would ever find it out anyways.
However, this does kind of suck. It's not as bad as what Mitsu did though, but this is still pretty bad.
meh.... i dont buy new cars anyway lol
Vtec = Very Tall Engine Cooling
H O N D A, oh how well love it when we smokin V8s, all day, every day, it dont stop, Im rolling in my Honda like Im running from the cops.
BUT Now you know, cause you're Jon Doe, in a black bag, a tag on your toe, I built the Honda, I felt the pain, you're victimized with no one to blame, you're just another victim kid.....
Mr. Goodwrench could you clarify your post a little bit?
Chrysler has actually boosted HP on a couple of vehicles, the Viper is now rated at 510 hp.
Yella02-I promise I will return to you in one piece and this will stay up until I am safely home
MiKeDiRnTRuLeZ wrote:I can see why.
Who is going to put a stock camry on a dyno?
I would be truthful for things like the celica where people might actually put it on a dyno, but things like minivans and camrys and avalons I would just boost it up too because nobody would ever find it out anyways.
However, this does kind of suck. It's not as bad as what Mitsu did though, but this is still pretty bad.
What did mitsu do not to change the topic or nutthin?
MONGOOSE(TheL61) wrote:Mr. Goodwrench could you clarify your post a little bit?
You forgot to say please.
The Society of Automotive Engineers has tightened standards for measuring horsepower, and the results are now showing up on spec charts across America. That’s good if you’re building Corvette Z06s, which went from 500 hp to 505, but it could be bad if you end up with a 197-hp (vs. a nice, round 200-hp) Civic. SAE periodically revises the thousands of standards it certifies; horsepower was revised in August 2004 to close loopholes for things like backpressure from exhaust systems, the use of super-lubricity oil in the engine, the number of accessories that must be hooked up during a test—all the things dynamometer monkeys think of to get a better power rating. SAE also added a requirement for an independent witness to certify the horsepower testing.
You may want to look here
And GM felt some shorfalls with this new power rating system aswell, case in point.
Before anything, let me quote what GM is saying:
"Special Note: Several General Motors horsepower and torque numbers have been certified by the Society of Automotive Engineers (i.e. SAE certified). A new voluntary power and torque certification procedure developed by the SAE Engine Test Code committee was approved March 31, 2005. This procedure (J2723) ensures fair, accurate ratings for horsepower and torque by allowing manufacturers to certify their engines through third-party witness testing. GM was the first auto manufacturer to begin using the procedure and expects to use it for all newly rated engines in the future."
2006 Buick Lucerne w/ 3800 series-3
is now rated at 197 vs 200HP. And torque droped to 227@3800 vs 230@4000.
2006 Cadillac DTS L37
Is now rated at 290HP vs 300HP@4400 and the torque droped to 285@4400 vs 295@4400
The drivetrain is essentially unchanged, with choice of Northstar V8s (rated at 275HP/286TQ vs 300TQ with old standard in luxury trim and 290 hp in performance trim, down from 300 hp under the new SAE standards for 2006.
2006 2.4L Ecotec Initially it was rated at 170HP/ 170Torque now
167-177 6200/ 6300 HP
162-166 4500-5000 Torque depending on the application.
Cadillac XLR-V also dropped its torque with the new standard. Initially GM was saying...
"Called the Northstar V-8 SC (supercharged), the engine produces 440 horsepower (328 kW) at 6400 rpm and 430 lb.-ft. (583 Nm) of torque at 3600 rpm and the engine's power is underscored by its ability to deliver 90 percent of its peak torque between 2200 and 6000 rpm. Vehicle redline is 6700 rpm."
Now with new standard...
"The Supercharged Northstar V-8 will also power the upcoming V-Series edition of the XLR luxury roadster slated for production in early-2006. XLR-V is certified at 443 hp at 6,400 rpm and 414 lbs.-ft. of torque at 3900 rpm."
So far the only cars/ car manufacture benfitting from this new system is GM and Chrysler. Like "Saint" said, the Viper is now rated at 510HP from the initial 500HP. The Chevrolet C6 Z06 with 505HP vs the initial 500HP. And last but not least the Cadillac STS-V with 469HP vs the initial 440HP.
To my understanding, European cars too will also feel the effects of this on the BMWs, Audi, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc.
This will look bad for auto industry as whole, except for those just mentioned.
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
it be nice if the made a mistake with my car "instead of 140, the ecotec produces 900 HP"
sadly, this is not the case.
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for a forum where there are no rules, visit
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lol....why would any of them lie about 10hp
do they really think that saying that extra 10hp is really gonna bring that many more costomers in?
Emor8t wrote:it be nice if the made a mistake with my car "instead of 140, the ecotec produces 900 HP"
sadly, this is not the case.
LOL
I don't think the 197 vs 200hp thing is so bad, but 414 vs 430 ft lbs. is a little too much of a nudge. Anyway its good to hear someone is conducting these tests and setting stuff straight.
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actually the 06 models are rated at 195
speaking that they 06 is rated at 195
2004 it was 200hp
2005 it was 210hp
2006 is now 195
kind of humorous
and the gm cars that are over rated really aren't a performance car like the rsx
the only way i see this working out is by running multiple engines and averaging the numbers, there is too much variance between engines to test one and be accurate. One 2.2 Ecotec may make 140 horsepower and the next may make 137, so on and so forth. Plus rounding numbers up or down makes for less paperwork. Well it does in my line of work anyways...
<~~~~PWN3D!!
Well, keep in mind that the SAE tests are designed to generate comparable numbers between different manufacturers. Thus eliminating separate testing standards that may or may not effect the reported numbers.
However these tests can not standardize the numbers for every production engine, as was said earlier. So you test an Ecotec that produces 135HP, and a Celica GT engine that produces 142HP. Do you report these values? Probably not because your data is too limited. So you test each engine 10 times and get 139 and 141. But you still really can't report those values because you've only tested one engine, and your population is 2. So, say you test 10 engines each and run 10 tests on each, that's 100 tests per engine. Ok, now you've got a good number of tests, at a good population (although small considering the number of engines produced.) So... who's paying for this? Seriously, if you want to test these things properly to ensure a reasonably accurate average number, you're going to have to run 100 tests or so at a minimum. Put a certified engineer in there to make sure the test is being run properly, and atleast one lab rat (intern); more likely 5 skilled and well paid people. And run 1 test in 10 minutes (being thrify with time there) that's 1000 minutes for a single engine, that's 16+ hours, with 5 people is 80+ man hours, and $50/hr (again conservative) is $4k, not to mention equipment purchase or rental.
$4k to tell consumers their car has up to 20 less horsepower than someone initially told them, and most of them don't care.
HELLO STUPID PEOPLE
HELLOOOOOOOO
HELLOOOOOO.
nobody lied about their power you stupid, illiterate turds.
the sae procedures have changed and therefore numbers will be different.
last years 250hp was accurate to the old test methods, the same car making 230hp this is is also accurate to the new testing methods.
hell, its a voluntary program, but only toyota and honda have tested their full lineup.
gm hasnt, ford hasnt tested ANY, dcx hasnt tested ANY.
everyone's power rating will change in munrical value whether up or down.
remember inbred hicks... nobody is underrating or overrating their power levels. there is just a new way of testing.
just like dynoing on a mustang dyno, and then going to a dynojet. does that mean that the first number was a lie?
stupid.
hmm
i call bs or your stupidity
every company did thier own testing, now everyone has to adhere to 1standard
gm hasnt tested their full line up because they have so many fning cars.
Damn, why don't you act like a 30 year old?
because i'm not 30. this is the internet, i am a private person. no info about me is ever posted by me.
not every company did their testing yet.
ford and dcx want to wait and only test new engines because they are scared of having to drop some power ratings and have retards think that they were underrating them (nothing wrong with that... jsut look at almost every post on the internet about this).
this is just a new standard that takes into account exhaust back pressure, power steering, synthetic oils etc... so that "15%" drivetrain loss is about to fall some more.
I read the article, understood it, see your point, and yet, youre still a troll.
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right
honda still had to drop their hp numbers and so did toyota
if a power steering pum[p causes the rsx-s to lose 15 hp, id hate to see what the ac, and water pumps do
MONGOOSE(TheL61) wrote:
For the 2006 model year, Toyota says its Camry equipped with a 3-liter V-6 engine generates 190 horsepower. In 2005, Toyota said the same car with the same engine had 210 horsepower.
link
Sorry to bust the bubble about toyota and honda making false HP numbers.. Look at the Toyota Camry Engines.
In 2005 there were 2 engines available.
2.4L 4 cylinder
3.3L v6
in 2006 there are
2.4L 153hp
3.0L 190hp
3.3L 210hp
now in the solara the same engines
2.4L 157hp
3.3L 225hp
and those engines/numbers are for 2005 AND 2006.
Sorry the info is false and poorly made up probably from someone trying to say "Buy GM or Ford because we can lie to you about the other guys"
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/618295
sorry. i forgot to mention the reason there are HP differences in the solara and the camry are for obvious reasons... the solara is a sports car and naturally there will be some improvements made to get more HP outa the engine.
^ because i know someone will say " why then do the same engines make diff HP numbers"
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