In the latest Car&Driver issue it was reported the GM will cutback Buick, GMC and Pontiacs lineup. Most likely to go first will be the Buick Rainier and Terraza(sp?). Chevrolet, Caddilac and Saturn will have full or almost full lineups. Pontiac will focus on Performance models such as the new Solstice; Buick will focus on the upscale luxury car market and GMC possibly might lose the fullsize van. GM also wants B,G&P to be sold at one single dealership instead of having 3 different Dealerships so all the lines will represent a full lineup.
And they wonder why they're in such bad financial trouble. Cars like the Rainier and Terraza are such a waste, what were they out for a year? I've never even seen a Terraza in person yet, thats how new they are. I know they're just rebadged Trailblazers and Uplanders, but it still costs money to get them out there. It seems like GM is always cutting this and that, then they're expanding other lines next time you turn around.
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you can't really cut pontiac much more
MONGOOSE(TheL61) wrote:you can't really cut pontiac much more
they still have the minivan, dont they? well, for now at least. but you're right, the majority of their models are already performance vehicles, or have performance somewhere in the trim options. they need to get some normal car guys to help them decide what goes in the new models, though, instead of engineers and designers that dont know what people want. but hey, that's my $.02
Andy
it's not how fast you go, it's how you get there that counts.
ZZP XP cam, 1.6 rockers, 105# springs, speedbuilt FWI, 3.3" modular pulley, TOG headers,
3" exhaust, flomatched injectors
'97 GTP 14.06@100.6mph pre cam w/ 3.5" pulley, I/E
i had totally forgot about the other versions of the trail-blazer......i dont think ive ever seen one lol
Good. At least they did something somewhat intelligent. Since I work at a Saturn retailer it will be interesting to see how this unfolds. Seems like GM is kind of going with a good (chevy) better (saturn) best (Caddy) Scheme. Buick, GM, and Pontiac will be their "other" offerings.
They should kill the pontiac minivans, and the torrent.
i always felt pontiac was the more high perfromance end of GM (since it did give birth to the mother of all muscle cars the GTO)
Agree for the most part.
But what can you say of the Corvette then? ^
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
corvette isnt a muscle car
they all should have a extra performance model
but pontiac should have all the newer risky designs + power
MONGOOSE(TheL61) wrote:corvette isnt a muscle car
they all should have a extra performance model
but pontiac should have all the newer risky designs + power
agreed. i like that idea. pontiac being a kinda "testing ground" for crazy new performance modles, i just hope they dont make it too sporty and leave normal buyers out of the mix by just offering higher performance cars, like just keeping the GTP end G6 and GP's. they need to remember to put the lower power engines in them to make them affordable for the non sports oriented buyers. man i want the trans am back, though.
Andy
it's not how fast you go, it's how you get there that counts.
ZZP XP cam, 1.6 rockers, 105# springs, speedbuilt FWI, 3.3" modular pulley, TOG headers,
3" exhaust, flomatched injectors
'97 GTP 14.06@100.6mph pre cam w/ 3.5" pulley, I/E
So what would the lineup look like with the 3?
Pontiac: Pursuit?, G6, Torrent, Solstice, GTO
Buick: Lacross, Lucerne, Rainer
GMC: Canyon, Sierra, Yukon
Where does the minivan and full size vans fit in? and the Aztek? If Pontiac will be the 'Performace' brand, these cars obviously dont belong there.. Chevrolet and Satrun goign to be the only brands that have those??
It seems like a good idea.. but we'll see....
aztek is gone after this year or next, who says you couldnt have a performance mini van tho? that would be cool
its all up the the gm big wigs to screw it up or come out swinging
231 Cubes of Furry wrote:MONGOOSE(TheL61) wrote:corvette isnt a muscle car
they all should have a extra performance model
but pontiac should have all the newer risky designs + power
agreed. i like that idea. pontiac being a kinda "testing ground" for crazy new performance modles, i just hope they dont make it too sporty and leave normal buyers out of the mix by just offering higher performance cars, like just keeping the GTP end G6 and GP's. they need to remember to put the lower power engines in them to make them affordable for the non sports oriented buyers. man i want the trans am back, though.
231,
I don't understand your logic about Pontiac... (I'm not wanting a flame war here, just a real discussion...)
If Pontiac is to be the division that is the testing ground for performance models, wouldn't having a low-power versions of the same cars counterproductive? I think this is part of what has GM is such trouble already... If Pontiac is going to be the
performance division, then they better do it 100%. No low-power G6's anymore. BMW doesn't sell their 'base' model(s) in the 'States, and has a
real reputation for performance. No half-a**ed 'performance' models. If people need a low-power midsize, they can get a base Malibu...
What I'm saying is, build stuff that is compatible with your mission. In the last 30 or so years, GM has had too many 'me-too' cars. When they do a car that is outside of the box (Allante, Fiero, Aztek), too many times it's done so half-a**ed that it turns out to be a waste of time. Usually by the end of production life, the cars are fixed, but who the hell cares?
If GM was serious about it's image they need to deal with it soon. Many may disagree with me, but GM needs to dump Saturn; too much overlap with Chevy/Pontiac, at least currently and probably in the future. They need to sh*tcan the Buick, Cadillac and Pontiac trucks. Why does GM need a Buick or Pontiac version of the Uplander? Or, if Pontiac (for example) is going to do the Uplander, make it the 'bad ass' version of a mini-van. Biggest motor, best suspension, etc. Make it really exceptional, not just a me-too mini-van...
The same with the TrailBlazer. Even with the loss of Oldsmobile division, there are more variations of the GMT 360 now than a year ago?(Trail Blazer, Envoy, Rainier, Saab 9-7X) WTF? More me-too cars...
Let GMC and Chevy do the truck thing, Chevy for the low end, GMC at the top end. Hummer is it's own little world, let them do their thing. But eventually, once the Hummer goes out of fashion, sell it back to AMGeneral. Maybe GM can get their investment back.
Maybe they ought to do the same with Saab, too. I bet the Swedes would be happy to get back one of their car companies. Or at least figure out a way to
really make Saab 'different' again, not just by using recycled music from 'The Who' in their US commercials. What is their line up? A WRX wagon in drag, two sedans and a convertible from Sweden and a very nicely trimmed Trailblazer. What stands out? The WRX! Everything else is snooze city.
And we haven't even thought about Suzuki, or Daewoo or...???
Cheers
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
I think Pontiac's current GT models should be the base models. and there should be HIGHER power and performance in their sportier packages. For example, when the Sunfire GT came out in 95 (like mine) it came with the 2.3L quad, the lowest horsepower version made (150 hp). it SHOULD have come with a turbo HO quad (or a N/A W41 like motor) as the GT, as a lower package the N/A HO, and the LO as the base.
Buick is the "poor mans" Caddy. and should uphold a higher luxury than all but Caddy.
And GMC is the Grand Daddy of them all and SHOULD be the truck leader, really should be the ONLY truck of GM.
Chevy should be the wide spread, from entry to excellence (Aveo to Corvette), A minivan, and MAYBE a small SUV (something simple yet sporty)
Pontiac should make a Sports truck (IE ford lightening, Ram SRT-10) and a SMALL sport suv (IE Porsche Cheyenne or that BMW SUV)
Most importantly, no more cross badging, it's the STUPIDEST thing ever, why pay $40,000+ for a Caddy truck when you can get a Chevy or GMC truck for $20,000 and make it look like a caddy for lss than $10,000 (all prices are guesses and not factual)
CodeRedZ24 (aka Geeds) wrote:i always felt pontiac was the more high perfromance end of GM (since it did give birth to the mother of all muscle cars the GTO)
you can thank mr. john delorian for that =) you can thank him for the DMC Dolorian too =) than kick his butt for letting the government destroy his company
my only reasoning behind what i said is that, as it is, pontiac's sales are down. if they cut out the lower end models, their sales are likely to drop even more. yes, peole will be buying the performance models, but im not sure if that alone is enough to keep pontiac afloat. all im sayin is keep a few of the cheaper models to "pay the bills". like base G6's and GP's. not really under powered, just not crap your pants fast. that way they can play around with ideas without worrying about GM putting them on the cuting block.
Andy
Andy
it's not how fast you go, it's how you get there that counts.
ZZP XP cam, 1.6 rockers, 105# springs, speedbuilt FWI, 3.3" modular pulley, TOG headers,
3" exhaust, flomatched injectors
'97 GTP 14.06@100.6mph pre cam w/ 3.5" pulley, I/E
eh, same thing...
Andy
it's not how fast you go, it's how you get there that counts.
ZZP XP cam, 1.6 rockers, 105# springs, speedbuilt FWI, 3.3" modular pulley, TOG headers,
3" exhaust, flomatched injectors
'97 GTP 14.06@100.6mph pre cam w/ 3.5" pulley, I/E
231 Cubes of Furry wrote:my only reasoning behind what i said is that, as it is, pontiac's sales are down. if they cut out the lower end models, their sales are likely to drop even more. yes, peole will be buying the performance models, but im not sure if that alone is enough to keep pontiac afloat. all im sayin is keep a few of the cheaper models to "pay the bills". like base G6's and GP's. not really under powered, just not crap your pants fast. that way they can play around with ideas without worrying about GM putting them on the cuting block.
Andy
I hear what you're saying. Maybe if they had a hot >>>hotter kind of program. Make the base cars hot, and the GT-level cars crap-your-pants hot. Just don't make the Pontiacs dressed up Chevys. GM (and Ford) have done that over the years, and look where they are now...
More than once, GM management has talked about putting Pontiac and Buick on the chopping block in recent months. Plus, the fact that GM refers to them as 'damaged brands' (WTF?), doesn't bode well, IMHO.
I am/was a big Oldsmobile fan. I could not see the logic in keeping Saturn, which has yet to make GM money, and killing off the oldest surviving name in US auto history, which also made millions over many years for the corporation.
Is the game plan to kill off Buick (another one of the oldest names in the US), Pontiac (home of the GTO, T/A, etc.) and GMC (another survivor!) with great brand recognition and a long history of making $$'s for the corp., so that Saturn, Hummer and Saab can live? Those three brands are (essentially) drains on the corp., and pouring scarce resources into their continuation does not make sense.
What happens when the current SUV fad finally wears thin? It may be happening already. What do you do with Hummer? I can't wait to see the Hummer Suburban...
Saturn doesn't know who or where it is, but I think that's due to schizophrenic management. What is Saturn? A replacement for Oldsmobile? Aren't they the Cheap Plastic Car company? They compete directly with Chevy in the lower end market. How do they plan to market the Sky against the Solstice? Where does it fit in?
I've been an observer of the car industry since I was a kid, and I have got to say that all of the domestic manufacturers are in a mess. It''s almost like they were trying to screw up...
Thanks for letting me rant. I want my kids to experience the same great rides I grew up with. This is one problem they can't blame on the unions or the pensions or the tides of the moon. A guy my age hears the name GTO or Trans Am, and thinks of an a**-kicking ride. My kids don't necessarily think that, they think a Toyota or a VW is cool... There's no reason the US manufacturers can't put out great cars again...
Cheers!
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
Saturn was always based on a different kind of dealership more than cars. Originally they were given cars w/o soul on purpose. But now Lutz is trying to move away from that. Saturn is selling cars.
When it comes to killing of trucks, you can't just get rid of chevy trucks, the silverado has been around for forever and always sells.
You don't keep pontiac to have lower models. Make them all hi po, then its more of a status symbol. Wow, that guy has the new 450hp judge gto, or wow the 300hp g6. I think that is what pontiac should be, IMO.
MONGOOSE(TheL61) wrote:Saturn was always based on a different kind of dealership more than cars. Originally they were given cars w/o soul on purpose. But now Lutz is trying to move away from that. Saturn is selling cars.
When it comes to killing of trucks, you can't just get rid of chevy trucks, the silverado has been around for forever and always sells.
You don't keep pontiac to have lower models. Make them all hi po, then its more of a status symbol. Wow, that guy has the new 450hp judge gto, or wow the 300hp g6. I think that is what pontiac should be, IMO.
Agreed. Saturn may be selling car's but they still have yet to turn a profit for GM in their entire existence.
