Toyota's President Fujio Cho may offer General Motors help with safety and environmental technology, Reuters reported.
The subject may come up in an upcoming meeting Cho has scheduled with GM Chairman Rick Wagoner this month, a Japanese newspaper said.
Earlier, Toyota's chairman raised the possibility of raising prices to help struggling U.S. manufacturers, which are losing market share, Reuters noted. But a Toyota spokesman later denied the company was considering such price rises.
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If Rick's smart he'll make a deal with Toyota for use of their hybrid technology in GM vehicles.
spikej wrote:If Rick's smart he'll make a deal with Toyota for use of their hybrid technology in GM vehicles.
We all know he's not. If GM was smart they wouldn't be in trouble like they are now.
did that just say that toyota was gonna raise prices to help their competition?
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spikej wrote:If Rick's smart he'll make a deal with Toyota for use of their hybrid technology in GM vehicles.
Geez, I hope not.
GM already has a better long-term plan with the hydrogen fueled cars than this latest techno-fad. The 'skateboard' chassis combined with a hydrogen power unit fueled by hydrogen from ethanol (grain alcohol that we grow and distill here in the US) is a much better long term solution than these 'Frankenstein' gas/electric cars. These cars use less fuel, but they don't alleviate our dependence upon dino-juice to get down the road.
Is anybody else looking at the long-term implications of this hybrid technology in real (read 'average guy') terms? You have to put out a lot of money for not very much return. There are many reports of disappointed hybrid owners who are not getting the mileage advertised. The Honda hybrids get great gas mileage between shutting off the motor at every stop (pioneered by VW in the late '70's) and shutting down cylinders in low load situations (which some GM & Chrysler cars and trucks do right now). Plus, they substitute aluminum and other alloy body parts to try and compensate for the added weight of the hybrid drivetrain. I've read that the engine management features are what really gets the high mileage numbers for the hybrids. GM or any other company could add those features (with the exception of the hybrid unit) to their existing line up and get real mileage gains without going to the (absurd) complexity and cost of a hybrid driveline. Hell, just keep your tires inflated properly and get 3% better gas mileage. (No I mean it, check your tire air pressure NOW!)
Who will want to buy one of these things used, when they're 6 or 7 years old? (i.e. at the end of the batteries lifespan?) Those will be inexpensive to replace, right?? I might buy a used gasoline fueled vehicle that old, because I expect the infrastructure will be there for some time to come.
I'm not really picking on Honda or Toyota in particular, just the whole hybrid thing. I just see it as a stopgap measure, until we get to something like a regular production flex-fuel vehicle (recent Fords nothwithstanding) or a hydrogen powered vehicle. How come in Brazil, all of the major auto manufacturers in that country (GM, Ford, VW and DC) offer cars & trucks that run on gasoline, ethanol, or a combination of both? Why can't we do this here in the U.S.? I realize there would be some techinical difficulties, but this is a big country with a lot of smart people. I know for a fact that Minnesota uses ethanol in their fuel, it's mandated by state law. (I believe it's E-15, meaning that it's 85% gasoline and 15% ethanol. If I'm wrong, maybe someone from Minnesota can correct me. I live in Michigan and any amount of ethanol in your gasoline is a hit or miss proposition. Anyway you cut it, Minnesota has some pretty harsh winters, and hot summers, I think if you can run a ethanol blend in that state, you can run it anywhere in the nation.
I just think there's a lot of hype with all of this hybrid stuff. Technological tailfins, man...
George (geozinger)
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'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
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sweet toyota cobalt parts are on the way....jdm style bbbboooooyyyyyyyyyyyyyy.....
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George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
Geo:
Minnesota mandates that their summer gas have ethanol, or at least the ethanol blend is offered. Not entirely sure about winter gas.
Anyhow...
Your bit about a lot of smart people is a bit humourous... there are a lot of other "smart" people that have an Essuvee in thier driveway or some other gas-sucking monstrousity.... The point is that the US relies on oil a lot more than just that (all commercial plastics, styrofoams... material goods), and while ethanol is a good idea, it's not the magic bullet, and neither is the hydrogen technology because it's not yet a viable alternative unless you want to take out a second mortgage to buy the car and an electrolytic separator that can make the 5 gallons of liquified hydrogen you need roughly daily. The Ethanol solution (ie. more in the fuel) is a good idea, but IIRC, you need a different ECM programming and other hardware to compensate, and even then, you can only use that kind of fuel, you can't go over to regular unleaded fuel.
Ideally, a multi-fuel setup like diesel engines is going to be the most flexible and economical. But then again, I'm only paying about $3.50 USD a Gallon
I think that if anything, that's the way I'd go, and I figure that if GM, Toyota, Ford.. etc. were smart, they'd start using the diesel engines they already have in Europe in North American Cars (and bring over the Opel Vectra while they're at it
). VW and IIRC Mercedes Benz are the only manufacturers selling diesel equipped passenger cars in north america. If I had to, I'd get an H1 and use veggie gas in it... it's about $1.85 a gallon.. so the savings are there, even if the thing takes up an entire lane and drives like a pig.
What you're saying about the hybrid technology is fine, and most companies understand that, however, most of the people complaining about the mileage claims are trying to push a 3 cylinder engine to 90 MPH and keep it pinned there.. when the claims are valid (with tolerances) to a maximum of 55 MPH. The technology is actually easily recyclable (unlike most cars), and most of the government purchase incentives outweigh the projected replacement costs in 6-8 years. It's not perfect, but it's a damned sight better than waiting for a technology that is doubtlessly going to be expensive to procure and fuel for the long term.
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geozinger wrote:'m not really picking on Honda or Toyota in particular, just the whole hybrid thing. I just see it as a stopgap measure, until we get to something like a regular production flex-fuel vehicle (recent Fords nothwithstanding) or a hydrogen powered vehicle.
It may be a "stopgap measure" but right now, it's all we've got. If they made a hybrid conversion for my Sunflower, Horizon, or Charger, you bet your arse that I'd convert over. Every little bit helps, IMO.
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it's more like Rick would go to Toyota and be like....."um,....yeah,ok right yeah Hybird technology. that sounds cool.....uh fuel economy, and quality build.....um, ok....yeah we may be able to use that i guess. But do you....um maybe have some cool new TRUCK stuff?"
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GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Geo:
Minnesota mandates that their summer gas have ethanol, or at least the ethanol blend is offered. Not entirely sure about winter gas.
Anyhow...
Your bit about a lot of smart people is a bit humourous... there are a lot of other "smart" people that have an Essuvee in thier driveway or some other gas-sucking monstrousity.... The point is that the US relies on oil a lot more than just that (all commercial plastics, styrofoams... material goods), and while ethanol is a good idea, it's not the magic bullet, and neither is the hydrogen technology because it's not yet a viable alternative unless you want to take out a second mortgage to buy the car and an electrolytic separator that can make the 5 gallons of liquified hydrogen you need roughly daily. The Ethanol solution (ie. more in the fuel) is a good idea, but IIRC, you need a different ECM programming and other hardware to compensate, and even then, you can only use that kind of fuel, you can't go over to regular unleaded fuel.
Ideally, a multi-fuel setup like diesel engines is going to be the most flexible and economical. But then again, I'm only paying about $3.50 USD a Gallon I think that if anything, that's the way I'd go, and I figure that if GM, Toyota, Ford.. etc. were smart, they'd start using the diesel engines they already have in Europe in North American Cars (and bring over the Opel Vectra while they're at it ). VW and IIRC Mercedes Benz are the only manufacturers selling diesel equipped passenger cars in north america. If I had to, I'd get an H1 and use veggie gas in it... it's about $1.85 a gallon.. so the savings are there, even if the thing takes up an entire lane and drives like a pig.
What you're saying about the hybrid technology is fine, and most companies understand that, however, most of the people complaining about the mileage claims are trying to push a 3 cylinder engine to 90 MPH and keep it pinned there.. when the claims are valid (with tolerances) to a maximum of 55 MPH. The technology is actually easily recyclable (unlike most cars), and most of the government purchase incentives outweigh the projected replacement costs in 6-8 years. It's not perfect, but it's a damned sight better than waiting for a technology that is doubtlessly going to be expensive to procure and fuel for the long term.
Hi GAM,
Thanks for replying in an adult fashion. So many of these postings degenerate into internet flame wars...
I appreciate your correction on the Minnesota gas situation. I knew some part of it was mandated, but I'm in the same boat with you, not 100% sure about winter gas. I understand your point about oil for goods other than vehicle fuels, although, I was primarily addressing that issue. You are correct, given our modern society's need for all things made from petrochemicals, we probably could never 'reasonably' "cut the cord" from our oil producing friends/adversaries. Although, in the late '40's Henry Ford did build one of his (then current) production cars out of mostly soybean derived plastics (including the paint) to prove that it could be done. I understand the paint dulled rather quickly, however...
Since I'm at work on a freekin' beautiful Saturday, I can't/don't have time to Google to find the article that I read concerning the Brazilian automobile industry and how they build cars that run on ethanol, gasoline or a mixture. It's being done there, I don't see why it can't be done in North America. I understand what you mean about reprogrammed ECM's and such, but apparently GM, Ford and the rest have figured out how to do it for Brazil.
I just read an article recently on Wired news, (yes I know not the best place for automotive news, I agree) about a process that uses ethanol and is more efficient than the current method of getting hydrogen from gasoline. Besides, I think the idea of using gasoline to derive hydrogen to fuel our cars is kind of missing the point...
I think you may be missing my point about used hybrid cars. Yes, the tax incentives for the FIRST owners are great, but what happens when it becomes a used car? Do the tax incentives continue for the subsequent owner(s)? Honestly, I don't know. I have not researched that part of the ownership equation. It seems to me very few people buy a car and keep it (read use it daily) for 8-10 years. (Except for my cheap ass next door neighbor.) Besides, who would want to replace the whole battery pack on a seven year old car for $4000 (wild ass guess) when the car is worth maybe $8000? I'm glad all of that stuff is recyclable, maybe then one could make up the difference in core charges or something like that.
I think you're on to something with the diesel stuff. And it's a great idea. But I don't know if it's really about smart, and how much of all of this BS is really about appeasing one special interest group or another. (Read what you like into that last statement.) You are correct, I would love to see some of the other diesel cars from Europe/Japan come over here. After driving a friends diesel Golf, I wanted to get one too, but there aren't many to go around. A diesel Opel Vectra would be cool as hell...
My overall point with the ethanol idea is, it's being done now, we can produce plenty of it here, let's go for it.It took years for the gasoline infrastructure to be built, but we could build another one if there was enough interest and man- and brainpower applied to it. Do I think it will happen overnight? No. It will take investment, education and elbow grease to get there. If the 'hydrogen economy' is where we're headed, let use all of the items available to us. If we can extract hydrogen more inexpensively from ethanol, let's find out how to get there.
I realize right now it's expensive, but so were the first gasoline fueled vehicles. That sure didn't stop people from making cheaper cars that ran on gasoline (see Model T). If we had real flex-fuel vehicles (again, recent Fords notwithstanding), and maybe tax incentives to promote their usage, I think it could turn around quickly.
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
Quote:
Toyota's President Fujio Cho may offer General Motors help with safety and environmental technology, Reuters reported. The subject may come up in an upcoming meeting Cho has scheduled with GM Chairman Rick Wagoner this month, a Japanese newspaper said. Earlier, Toyota's chairman raised the possibility of raising prices to help struggling U.S. manufacturers, which are losing market share, Reuters noted. But a Toyota spokesman later denied the company was considering such price rises.
Hey Goodwrench, what sources do you get your posts from......... Automotive News?
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geozinger wrote:
Thanks for replying in an adult fashion. So many of these postings degenerate into internet flame wars...
That has been the trend lately, hasn't it? Sad.
& Toaster
For this time, as you can see, "Reuters reported."
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Quote:
& Toaster For this time, as you can see, "Reuters reported."
Is that where you get most of your information that you post here?
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He always lists his source.
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I've been looking at this hybrid thing with a circumspect view - on one hand, it does reduce gasoline consuption
somewhat - though not many have really seen "real-world" numbers like the EPA predicted (just like regular cars).
The big problem with the financial situation of hybrids is that although the hybrid battery material may be recyclable & some costs may be offset by a core charge, I doubt that the highly specialized battery
designs would be equally recyclable (ask why laptop batteries - while they are made of generally similar materials between battery manufacturers, they are still expensive).
In any case, the designs are so specialized that I'd expect that the battery swap would need to be performed at a dealer, using dealer labor rates (post-warranty, of course).
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