This is it kids, the moment of truth. If GM and Chrysler don't have the outline of a viable plan to stay in business by Tuesday they might not stay in business.
I know GM has suggested that it could accept Chapter 11 bankruptcy so that it can restructure. Chrysler may be thinking along similar lines. The way that the economy is going and the fact that other car companies are taking a beating as well may prompt the automakers to say "screw it" and accept bankruptcy since there's no downside to it anymore. Had the economy been better, they might have lost sales because nobody wants to buy cars from a company that's in the toilet, but since all companies are in the toilet right now there's very little reason not to. They certainly can't look like they're doing any worse.
Who knows? Maybe with all the albatrosses removed from around their necks they can offer the best cars on the market again. Bankruptcy would certainly make it easier for companies like Dynacorn to offer replacement bodies or other classic car parts without having to jump through a million hurdles set up by corporate lawyers. That's for sure.
Bush and his crooked cronies should have given them till the summer at least for them to show their viability.
I hope GM either gets something solid worked out or pulls through a proper BK. They really have tried to improve their portfolio across the board and make much better vehicles. They deserve a 2nd chance.
Chrysler does NOT. They got their 2nd chance they pissed it away and build garbage. As far as I’m concerned they can go away they and I won't miss them...I know a lot of people that could agree to that. Besides when you think of unreliable, cheaply made, "dumb American" cars the first thing that pops into your head is anything made by Chrysler/ dodge/ Plymouth in the last 30 years or so. Sure they had the Viper, it's a small volume hand built car so of course it's reliable.
And of course they had amazing designs in the 90's, but so far all that's given us is nice looking dead cars at the local junk yard or broken down behind a shop.
Chrysler/ dodge/ Plymouth’s entire business plan was
1.) Build it super cheap to make gobs of profit.
2.) Build them pretty
3.) Build it super cheap to make gobs of profit
4.) Pack them with a lot of wow (i.e. performance, and/or loaded equipment for cheaper than anyone else, or cool technology that everyone else does 100x's better and more reliably)
5.) Build it super cheap to make gobs of profit
6.) Marketing, marketing, marketing! Chrysler/ dodge/ Plymouth markets their cars with hip and/or catchy marketing gimmicks that make the mundane sound much more amazing/exciting. (i.e. Trail rated, hemi, etc.) What is a trail rating? Who rated it? if someone DID rate it…did they rate other vehicles too? If it’s “rated” what is the rating? What was the rating of the other vehicles they rated?…ask that at your local Jeep dealer and they’ll sit their like you just melted their brains. Because all it is, is a marketing tool.
My Suzuki Sidekick is a body on frame, real 4WD truck, and can ride the same trails, go through the same mud holes, has just as much after market support, and creep over the same rocks as a Wrangler… But it doesn’t have a cool marketing catch phrase so ignorant people scoff at it on the road as gay lifted Geo. It doesn’t need to be “Trail Rated” it’s Trail proven. Sadly so are Jeeps so they didn’t need the cheap marketing tool.
What is a Hemi? We all know what the original Hemi motor was and what it means. Today all “Hemi” means is you have a V8 in your car or truck. But they have marketed it like you have baby Jesus under the hood. It’s all marketing. There is no such thing as “Trail Rated” and today there is no real “Hemi”. They spent a lot on marketing than they did on building good products.
7.) Lastly. Chrysler/ Dodge/ Plymouth’s main business plan and the one that ultimately did them in was…Build these cars to be ultra reliable, fun, solid for at least the span of a 2 to 3 year lease. That way they can reap the benefits of a great J.D. Power initial ownership rating (they could then use as another marketing tool) They will have made a profit from it by then and by the time it hits the used market the car/truck starts falling apart/blowing up they make a killing on the used purchase and on out of warranty repairs and parts.
Simply put Chrysler/ Dodge/ Plymouth builds well marketed beautiful garbage. We don’t need them around. They give American auto makers a bad reputation. GM and Ford have their own problems but Chrysler being around is just an embarrassment. They need to go away and sell Jeep to GM or Ford.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
I just want to know if GM does the 2nd chance are they still going to have the union(sp) that has messed that company over for years. Once they get rid of that I think they are going to be good.
If they take the BK they can basically be in position to to put a leash on the union dogs, and finally take back some control of the company. We just bailed these high school drop out union asshats, and saved their job and they now want to go on strike to save their over indulgent insurance policies and fight the pay cut. See, i told you the bailout was the wrong thing to do these union workers are as greedy as they are dumb.
FYI, you wouldn't have your job if we the tax payers didn't help you. Your greed and the greed of the entire company is why you almost lost your job. Instead of being greedy, be thankful.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
wonder if GM will continue to make the same screw ups that they did to get them into this mess if a plan goes thru
Im a Xbox 360 fanboy...and damn proud of it!!
LOL
Im a Xbox 360 Fanboy.
Taht's a good and valid question. They look on the surface to be building better cars, but will the executives get greedy again when it's all fixed and GM is back? Once the Union turds get the pay cut they deserve, i think executive pay should be capped too. Other wise they'll just steal the savings they got by making union workers take a cut and add to the bottom line of high up white collars. Everyone should take this seriously and be survival mode. Not trying to figure out how to keep making more money for themselves. They need to think for the better of the company.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
Quote:
If they take the BK they can basically be in position to to put a leash on the union dogs, and finally take back some control of the company. We just bailed these high school drop out union asshats, and saved their job and they now want to go on strike to save their over indulgent insurance policies and fight the pay cut. See, i told you the bailout was the wrong thing to do these union workers are as greedy as they are dumb.
Yeah it must be all the Unions fault GM is failing....
And seriously, you think there all High School drop outs? What a @!#$ stupid ass comment...
Id love to see you do what us " High school dropout union asshats" do everyday...
I could and would do it easily...you're NOT saving lives, you're bolting together a car.
And yes UAW workers are greedy, stupid, and overpaid. Sorry, true story.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
Jookycola wrote:I could and would do it easily...you're NOT saving lives, you're bolting together a car.
And yes UAW workers are greedy, stupid, and overpaid. Sorry, true story.
well, HE doesn't...his job is kinda dangerous...i would want a union if i had his job, and take full advantage of it.
as for the car builders...yea, agree with ya all the way...get paid way too much...
No I'm a nurse, our union is worthless and just over kill. a job like his it's needed. But nursing union, Actors union, and auto workers union are jokes.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
If that's what your saying then so be it, but it sounded more like you were generalizing all unions and union members. Which isn't true at all...
Unions are good, but the people who run unions are bad. The endear themselves to employees by fleecing the employers and asking for perks that shouldn't be neccesary. A Union's job is to create jobs and keep employees (thus companies) in business. Yet time and time again they make it insanely complicated to stay in business.
I think the UAW has it's place, but it needs to become pragmatic to the times. I think Unions need a Company Liason, and Companies need a Union Liason. Someone to smoothe relations and explain the other's side case to their guys. They're both have the same destination but keep pulling in different directions.
Unions aside, I've never understood why a huge company like GM didn't make world leading cars. The Corvette should be the envy of every car company. It should be the car that Ferrari aspires to make. Yet, it isn't. Something's wrong there.
I hope Chrysler makes it. Yeah, it's wasted it's potential at times. But it did make pretty cars and I would miss it if it was gone. I already lost AMC in 1988 and I don't know how I'd feel losing Chrysler. It's a hard blow to a car lover to see a company die.
GM can survive with the union in the future...the unions are not all bad, are only part of the problem, not all of it.
I feel that the main two factors that hurt GM to begin with were these....
1. There reliability was great on engine and transmissions but lacked in electronics and interior quality.
2. They built big ass cars and trucks because thats what americans wanted for years, then gas jumped and all of a sudden everyone jumps ship on them and claims they do not change. Was it not just 2 years ago that everyone was buying expeditions and tahoe's to take the kids to school? How in the world can a compay change a whole product line that quick? I feel there doing a good job improving their cars i just hope it's not to late.
yeah but 97cavy22, what many forget GM knew it was going to go bankrupt in laye 2005 just before the 2006 detroit auto show was about to happen. They knew there was trouble ahead and they did nothing about it. just kept going business as usual.
That's what worries me, it's like they don't...or at didn't take this seriously or something. that irked me and was 90% of why i didn't think they desered a bailout. They ran this ship into the rocks on purpose and then demeanded we pay for them to fix it. THAT's why as a tax payer i'm flaming pissed that we did bail them out.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
Jookycola wrote:yeah but 97cavy22, what many forget GM knew it was going to go bankrupt in laye 2005 just before the 2006 detroit auto show was about to happen. They knew there was trouble ahead and they did nothing about it. just kept going business as usual.
That's what worries me, it's like they don't...or at didn't take this seriously or something. that irked me and was 90% of why i didn't think they desered a bailout. They ran this ship into the rocks on purpose and then demeanded we pay for them to fix it. THAT's why as a tax payer i'm flaming pissed that we did bail them out.
how do you figure? they were cutting back back then
97cavy22 wrote:They built big ass cars and trucks because thats what americans wanted for years, then gas jumped and all of a sudden everyone jumps ship on them and claims they do not change. Was it not just 2 years ago that everyone was buying expeditions and tahoe's to take the kids to school? How in the world can a compay change a whole product line that quick? I feel there doing a good job improving their cars i just hope it's not to late.
Try telling that to the now- CR-V -driving soccer moms.
Jookycola wrote:They knew there was trouble ahead and they did nothing about it. just kept going business as usual.
I'm pretty sure I remember them cutting an entire RWD platform. They also started making Hummers smaller, lol. I honestly think if they had just sold Hummer right off the bat, nobody would be bitching and moaning about GM "not making changes", even if it didn't seriously affect their current position.
It takes 5-7 years (more or less depending on technology involved, e.g. Nissan testing their new LI battery packs for 10 years) to bring a completely new vehicle to the market. When did gas go through the roof? Yeah... As far as I'm concerned, they've done a miraculous job so far revamping their line, but they've made some poor decisions with vehicle branding.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
***BREAKING NEWS*** notec's steps to a brighter American future:
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=36&i=58477&t=58099#58477
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/09048/949670-28.stm
Cliff notes...
Quote:
General Motors' restructuring plan is expected to be far more aggressive than originally believed and may include the elimination of its Saturn brand.
Quote:
Meanwhile, Bob Lutz, who is slated to retire as GM's vice president of product development, told the Automotive News that Saturn likely would not survive the restructuring plan.
Quote:
Meanwhile, Saab, another GM brand under review, may fare better under the restructuring plan because the Swedish government plans to inject about $4 billion dollars into it and another Swedish nameplate, Volvo, which is owned by Ford, to make sure they survive the turmoil of the North American auto market, Mr. Cole said.
Quote:
The only mystery with the Pontiac brand is which models will be kept. If, indeed GM plans to focus on Pontiac's long performance heritage and youthful aura, it would make the most sense to keep the Solstice roadster and coupe along with the highly acclaimed G8 performance sedan.
GM also has said it plans to sell its Hummer brand.
Kinda sucks for me and the g/f
I have a Pontiac G6 and she has a Saturn Ion would suck to see them both go down.
Gm and Ford deserve to be around, Chrysler does not, both GM and Ford have alot of long term product development aimed at fuel efficiency and new ideas. I haven't saw anything from Chrysler in years thats worth buying. The challenger is prob the only half decent looking new car they have put out in the past 10 years and even that isnt really new its just a cheap copy of the Camaro.
GM's whole lineup is competitive now, Ford is starting to come around, they got the mustang of course which is the best all around retro Muscle car on the market, and the new line of turbo engines they have coming out def looks like the future of the company.
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Yeah i keep scratching my head on the Pontiac mystery. It's a good solid brand, and their "excitement" brand. If they would just make exciting cars for them Pontiac would be fine. Did Pontiac really need their own rebadged Aveo (G3)???
Personally the cobalt SS should never have been made. the SC/TC versions of the delta cars should have been Pontiac products. And i have no problem with Saturn being axed. They would make great Pontiacs. lol
the Aura and Astra would make awesome pontiacs. The vue is a small suv that gets horrid fuel economy compared to honda, suzuki, and toyota's mini suv's...plus it looks queer imho.
the outlook is an already over used platform they could afford to drop one...and really should anyways.
On pontiacs side drop the G6, they'l have the better twin with the Aura.
drop the uber-gay G3 and also cancel the Vibe, and Pursuit and replace that whole line with the Astra 2 and 4 door. Offer the turbo 2.0 from the Cobalt SS in them as GXP models.
Save the G8 as a flagship car. And from this day forward only produce fun, exciting cars. I don't get all the confusion at GM about what to do with Pontiac. It's the simplist solution, just follow the brands motto. Knowning them though they will cancel a heritige brand like Pontiac that would be easy to fix and instead keep Saturn a brand that's selling just as bad...which i think is just stupid.
And yes they knew they were having money troubles and still produced an all-new or redesigned huge SUV every month from january 2006 to last summer. And Hummers didn't get smaller, the H3 is still a gas guzzler. Yes they knew trouble was brewing and anybody with common sense knew gas prices were not going to get lower, only higher. So they did it to themselves. The only decent car they introduced during that period was the Cobalt ,and quality wise...it was a huge improvement over the Cavalier, but was still far behind the imports. I think GM is coming up now, they did a good job of getting out better CARS. But you are right they should have seen the writing on the wall and ditched Hummer a long time ago while they could still have made a little profit from the sale.
IMHO they also need to drop the GMAC line as well, i can't wrap my head around why they need 2 divisions that sell the same exact products? I know i'm not the only one that thinks that's stupid and wasteful. Plus the fact they are both big truck sellers, a weak market now. I'd rather have Pontiac stay and GMAC go if it came down to it. Actually either way GMAC should ga because it's just a waste when Chevy is selling the same products. It's just common sense, if they want to save money and their company, GMAC is the most worthless and weakest brand in their entire portfolio.
"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net
people dont have faith in the quality of cars GM has been putting out. why go american when a foreign car company has better quality, better realibilty, better looking cars? a part of me says let GM go out of bussiness then be bought out by a foreign company then maybe we can get some good quality cars
Im a Xbox 360 fanboy...and damn proud of it!!
Jookycola wrote: cancel the Vibe
Bad idea. The Vibe is a re-badged Toyota matrix. Made in the same plant as the Matrix/Corolla. Using the same components. Why buy a vibe, then? Because it's MUCH cheaper than a matrix, but the same car. Why throw away a well refined platform that has huge potential to sell (just look at Corolla/Matrix sales), that is made in a joint venture plant (lower operating costs), with Toyota parts (indestructible, and undeniably reliable)?
2010 Honda Fit LX
Jookycola wrote:Yeah i keep scratching my head on the Pontiac mystery. It's a good solid brand, and their "excitement" brand. If they would just make exciting cars for them Pontiac would be fine. Did Pontiac really need their own rebadged Aveo (G3)???
Dealers that carry Pontiac also have Buick & GMC, where do you put your entry level car when the dealerships bitch and moan that they need them? GMC is trucks and Buick is considered mid-luxury. that leaves you with Pontiac...
In my eyes if they want to succeed they need to rethink their dealer network. Might as well merge the Pontiac, Buick, GMC line into Chevy Dealers.
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Jookycola wrote:If they take the BK they can basically be in position to to put a leash on the union dogs, and finally take back some control of the company. We just bailed these high school drop out union asshats, and saved their job and they now want to go on strike to save their over indulgent insurance policies and fight the pay cut. See, i told you the bailout was the wrong thing to do these union workers are as greedy as they are dumb.
FYI, you wouldn't have your job if we the tax payers didn't help you. Your greed and the greed of the entire company is why you almost lost your job. Instead of being greedy, be thankful.
not once that "stimulus" plan is signed today. Unions will grow, not decline.
