I think this car is going to fail.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
There are plenty of rediculously wealthy people who will hit this in a heartbeat (the GM badge may lessen the impact though unfortunately). Once you see celebrities arriving at movie premiers in it it will take off, just like the Prius.
However, if gas keeps dropping, the future for this car will be bleak for sure.
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is it just me or does that thing seem to be loosely based on the camaro, looks wise?
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OHV notec wrote:There are plenty of rediculously wealthy people who will hit this in a heartbeat (the GM badge may lessen the impact though unfortunately). Once you see celebrities arriving at movie premiers in it it will take off, just like the Prius.
However, if gas keeps dropping, the future for this car will be bleak for sure.
Since when is gas dropping?? Here in Canada we're still paying over $5/gallon. Not cheap. When winter hits, for sure it'll go back up even higher. So don't ever think gas is cheap, those days are over. I'd like to see this car in production, but I know I'll never own one. I'm sure they'll be a $40k+ sticker on them.
Quote:
Watching you parade around my bedroom in a thong was a little like watching sea lions mate.
lone_wolf wrote:OHV notec wrote:There are plenty of rediculously wealthy people who will hit this in a heartbeat (the GM badge may lessen the impact though unfortunately). Once you see celebrities arriving at movie premiers in it it will take off, just like the Prius.
However, if gas keeps dropping, the future for this car will be bleak for sure.
Since when is gas dropping?? Here in Canada we're still paying over $5/gallon. Not cheap. When winter hits, for sure it'll go back up even higher. So don't ever think gas is cheap, those days are over. I'd like to see this car in production, but I know I'll never own one. I'm sure they'll be a $40k+ sticker on them.
It's below $4/gal here now, and people are taking up the "that's better" attitude, apparently forgetting it was half that only a few years ago
Point is, people are talking about SUVs coming back in the relatively near future
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i really hope it does well, although i really dont have a lot of confidence in it
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OHV notec wrote:There are plenty of rediculously wealthy people who will hit this in a heartbeat (the GM badge may lessen the impact though unfortunately). Once you see celebrities arriving at movie premiers in it it will take off, just like the Prius.
However, if gas keeps dropping, the future for this car will be bleak for sure.
There is a big difference though, this and the Prius and that is Price.
Here, the Prius can be had at $20-22K. Volt is projected at $40-45K MSRP, then there will be tax breaks that can lower it to $35-40K
This will fail like the SSR just because for the same reason.
IF GM wants to show the nation that GM is the leader on efficiency, diesel IS your answer. Peugeot got 1192 miles on a tank of diesel as a new record. GM downplays diesel because they have nothing here in their portfolio and swears that this is better. Oh and if anyone says that they are not clean, look up Benz's Bluetec and Honda's new diesel engines as they will be as clean as a gas car and meet the 50 state emissions.
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-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
I believe diesel is promoted because it costs less to refine and cost more at the pump. The math tells you that they are attempting to increase profit margins all the while asking the customer to pay more for the engine that burns it. It's my understanding that nobody has built a diesel refinery in NA in 30 years. If demand goes up, the price will skyrocket, leaving our all important trucking industry to pass the cost along on every product we buy.
If we promote diesel, we are placing the responsibility on the consumer to clean the emissions instead of doing it in the refinery in the place first.
Several places are working on gas engines that run off knock. That might be more palatable than dirty diesel.
What we need is the general acceptance that we do not need a 600km range in all our vehicles. That might be the issue that ruins the potential of every electric vehicle.
Epic FAIL!
So I wonder when this thing duds on the market what division Toyota will dissolve first when they Buy GM?
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Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Volt is projected at $40-45K MSRP
That's pure speculation. "Mr. Lutz also advised me that the recent quote of him saying “$48,000 was more reasonable” was never actually said by him . That he never gave that figure was also verified by his spokesman Dee Allen who was there for the interview." They have said again and again they want to price the car as close to $30k as possible, but ultimately production costs will determine that.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Here, the Prius can be had at $20-22K.
The base price of the Prius is $22,200, with an average price of around $25k, and a top price of almost $29k. And most dealers right now are selling them at MSRP if not higher, because of demand.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:IF GM wants to show the nation that GM is the leader on efficiency, diesel IS your answer.
No, its not the answer. Diesel, like all oil products, *WILL FAIL*. This is an inevitability. Whether it happens now, or it not in our lifetime, none of us can escape the reality. Diesel, like the Prius, and like the Volt, also, are just an intermediate step, and a small one at that. I think cars like the Volt are very important, though. The truth is, the way the markets are, oil could become prohibitively expensive overnight, whereas these cars take a minimum of 3 years to develop and produce. If the research isn't there, and isn't solid, we are done for. The Volt allows production to take place where it can today - electric propulsion and power storage. And in the lab, research can continue on those things that can't be put into production today, fuel cells.
Will the car fail? I doubt it. At worst it'll be a niche car. But so is the Corvette. GM won't kill that car. And they have too much riding on the future to prematurely kill the Volt.
The American average one-way commute is 16 miles. That is 32 miles per day, 8320 miles per year. That is 185 gallons (average) with the Prius, but with the Volt, 0 gallons. If gas were to stay at $4/gallon, that is $740 per year. That makes the price difference between the Prius and Volt a lot closer.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about
the former." - Albert Einstein
Americans buying more SUV's??? WTF? Gas is about 3.50 a gallon near me and I still see fewer vehicles on the road that the past few years. Also the Volt will not fail.
Dave wrote:Will the car fail? I doubt it. At worst it'll be a niche car. But so is the Corvette. GM won't kill that car. And they have too much riding on the future to prematurely kill the Volt.
The American average one-way commute is 16 miles. That is 32 miles per day, 8320 miles per year. That is 185 gallons (average) with the Prius, but with the Volt, 0 gallons. If gas were to stay at $4/gallon, that is $740 per year. That makes the price difference between the Prius and Volt a lot closer.
word, i dont see the car failing. Slow seller at first, probably. Cars like this are the immediate future IMO, and once GM gets the e-flex system to other cars it'll be a big win for GM and they'll be one step ahead of the competition. There are
a lot of people that could buy this car and never use gas.
This:
Honda FCX Clarity is where cars should headed, powertrain wise...
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Rob Weis (RobsCavZ24) wrote:This: Honda FCX Clarity is where cars should headed, powertrain wise...
Won't happen for a long time, too many other factors to be in place before we can go the Hydrogen route.
With government incentives you could see the final price pretty close to $30,000, which is in line with the target audience. So long as the volt is profitable and people buy into the whole system, you are going to see e-flex coming into most of the cars in the fleet.
I can envision 5 years down the road having e-flex malibus, impalas, and cobalts/cruze's that get 20-30 mile electric range and the volt being the top range model getting 40-50.
Dave wrote:The American average one-way commute is 16 miles. That is 32 miles per day, 8320 miles per year. That is 185 gallons (average) with the Prius, but with the Volt, 0 gallons. If gas were to stay at $4/gallon, that is $740 per year. That makes the price difference between the Prius and Volt a lot closer.
this is what is going to really separate the Prius and the Volt. The volt and prius are similar in that they are their manufacturer's top efforts to make a fuel efficient car. They are by concept and functionality COMPLETELY different though, hence the difference in price. If GM were to make a copy of the Prius, it would likely fail, as the saying would go; "GM is still playing catch up to toyota". Well this is a step AHEAD of toyota. The mountain is steep, but if this can become a solid car, and sell in america, it really could help give GM a better rep in the united states and help reduce that "we only build trucks" image. Props to GM for taking a risk and trying to lead the way in new development, win or lose!
Dave wrote:Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Volt is projected at $40-45K MSRP
That's pure speculation. "Mr. Lutz also advised me that the recent quote of him saying “$48,000 was more reasonable” was never actually said by him . That he never gave that figure was also verified by his spokesman Dee Allen who was there for the interview." They have said again and again they want to price the car as close to $30k as possible, but ultimately production costs will determine that.
http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=6&i=176160&t=176160#176160
Dave wrote: Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Here, the Prius can be had at $20-22K.
The base price of the Prius is $22,200, with an average price of around $25k, and a top price of almost $29k. And most dealers right now are selling them at MSRP if not higher, because of demand.
Notice I said "Here," not nationally or in your city or town? Here, people couldn't give a sh!t on efficiency, the people that live here only care to lease high priced mostly European cars for status purpose. Demand is generally average to low atleast "here."
Dave wrote: Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:IF GM wants to show the nation that GM is the leader on efficiency, diesel IS your answer.
No, its not the answer. Diesel, like all oil products, *WILL FAIL*. This is an inevitability. Whether it happens now, or it not in our lifetime, none of us can escape the reality. Diesel, like the Prius, and like the Volt, also, are just an intermediate step, and a small one at that. I think cars like the Volt are very important, though. The truth is, the way the markets are, oil could become prohibitively expensive overnight, whereas these cars take a minimum of 3 years to develop and produce. If the research isn't there, and isn't solid, we are done for. The Volt allows production to take place where it can today - electric propulsion and power storage. And in the lab, research can continue on those things that can't be put into production today, fuel cells.
Will the car fail? I doubt it. At worst it'll be a niche car. But so is the Corvette. GM won't kill that car. And they have too much riding on the future to prematurely kill the Volt.
I should have clarified... "IF GM wants to show the nation that GM is the leader on efficiency, diesel IS your (immediate) answer."
Volt is a starting point to something else, but like you said it will deplete. But GM being financially strained, wasting resource on a unproven (meaning not give the MPGs as promised) technology is bad business. Some one posted on the FCX, and I personally think that is the long term answer.
Will it fail? Yes, it will. Why? Like you said it will become a niche vehicle, like the Corvette, but unlike the Corvette, here the Volt is attempting to capture the folks that don't want to spend to much on fuel. Corvette consumers are looking for a Lambo performance at a "blue collar worker's price," in other words... totally different markets and mentality.
The people that will buy the Volt are not people that buy econoboxes to save fuel, rather wealthier environmentalist... think college professors, or established doctor, etc. Not everyday people. The cost of the vehicle is to much to over come the cost of fuel, that is if you actually get any savings with the Volt. Volt's market will be very similar to Saab's market if you will.
Dave wrote:
The American average one-way commute is 16 miles. That is 32 miles per day, 8320 miles per year. That is 185 gallons (average) with the Prius, but with the Volt, 0 gallons. If gas were to stay at $4/gallon, that is $740 per year. That makes the price difference between the Prius and Volt a lot closer.
I love your optimism.
But I consider this science project wishful thinking.
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Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=6&i=176160&t=176160#176160
That article was a misquote.
http://gm-volt.com/2008/04/28/how-much-will-the-chevy-volt-cost/
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Notice I said "Here," not nationally or in your city or town? Here, people couldn't give a sh!t on efficiency, the people that live here only care to lease high priced mostly European cars for status purpose. Demand is generally average to low atleast "here."
I'm not sure I believe it. Check edmunds.com. On average consumers are currently paying around $2k *over MSRP*. Unless you live in BF Idaho... but then I'm pretty sure they are at least paying MSRP there too. Anyway, maybe your town is an exception, but $2k over invoice is an average. Your town might just be bringing down that average. That makes it the exception, not the rule.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:I should have clarified... "IF GM wants to show the nation that GM is the leader on efficiency, diesel IS your (immediate) answer."
Volt is a starting point to something else, but like you said it will deplete. But GM being financially strained, wasting resource on a unproven (meaning not give the MPGs as promised) technology is bad business. Some one posted on the FCX, and I personally think that is the long term answer.
First off, nothing based on fossil fuels is an "answer" in any way. Sure, diesel can be a good immediate relief though. And you are right, hydrogen, or perhaps some other renewable fuel source is the answer. It is just not going to happen very soon.
Mr.Goodwrench-G.T. wrote:Will it fail? Yes, it will. Why? Like you said it will become a niche vehicle, like the Corvette, but unlike the Corvette, here the Volt is attempting to capture the folks that don't want to spend to much on fuel. Corvette consumers are looking for a Lambo performance at a "blue collar worker's price," in other words... totally different markets and mentality.
The people that will buy the Volt are not people that buy econoboxes to save fuel, rather wealthier environmentalist... think college professors, or established doctor, etc. Not everyday people. The cost of the vehicle is to much to over come the cost of fuel, that is if you actually get any savings with the Volt. Volt's market will be very similar to Saab's market if you will.
You are missing the point of the Volt. It is a necessary technological next-step in the pursuit of renewable fuels. It uses fossil fuels, albeit sparingly, but the drivetrain is all about the future. The Volt isn't just trying to capture the fuel efficient crowd, it is trying to put into production a technology that is vital to the future. The world needs the technology behind the drivetrain. If this sort of thing can be mainstreamed, the only thing left to do is replace the gasoline-generator with a fuel cell. For that reason, even if the car doesn't do all that well in dealers, I don't think GM would kill it prematurely. They will just continue to refine the technology and lower prices.
And finally, I love how everyone is so quick to say the Volt will be a failure, but they are stuck on the awesomeness of Toyota.
Quote:
U.S. sales of the Prius began in August 2000. By 2001 sales there totaled 15,556, and by 2002 had reached 20,119. In 2004 sales there were 53,991, and doubled in 2005 to 107,897, about 60% of the world total of 180,000. By 2006-06-07 266,212 Prius had been sold in the U.S., and accounted for 40% of the hybrid market there in 2006. As of November 2007 Toyota has sold 510,325 Prius in the US since its initial launch in 2000. Prius gas-electric hybrid mid-size sedan reported sales of 14,212 units for a best-ever December and best-ever year-end sales of 181,221 units, up 68.9 percent over 2006.
Quote:
Early estimates, from GM staff, were of initial annual production of 60,000 units, but these claims have been scaled back to a planned 10,000 units, as of May 2008, with a ramp up to 60,000 units in the second year.
So everyone expects the Volt to come out, sell 100,000 units otherwise its a failure? It took Toyota 5 years to hit that number. They only sold 15,556 the first year.
Fail indeed. We shall see.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about
the former." - Albert Einstein
Plainly-put...Volt success will depend on the price, and until I see a concrete number, then I'll finalize my prejudice, just beacuse this technology isn't cheap and $30K sounds unrealistic now. But this type of car is going to be under 50K in sales if its MSRP is over $35K.
Prius' slower sales is because it is a underachiever.
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I don't believe GM thinks this car will save the business.
I'm pretty sure, considering the 450mil being invested in China by GM that the hopes for rejuvination is there. Hopefully, our entire continent doesn't end up like Detroit after GM and the rest of the industry decided to move on to greener pastures.
The Volts technology has been used for years upon years. A generator running electric motors is not new to engineers. It seems to me that it's a decent compromise and a step closer to the real thing.
It might sound absurd to some considering GM's financial position, but I think it would be a good move for GM to take a loss on the Volt, similar to Nissan on the new GTR. Pricing it where normal people can buy them will put cars on the road and help GM's program to change their torn image.
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OHV notec wrote:It might sound absurd to some considering GM's financial position, but I think it would be a good move for GM to take a loss on the Volt, similar to Nissan on the new GTR. Pricing it where normal people can buy them will put cars on the road and help GM's program to change their torn image.
They WILL be taking a loss for at least a couple of years. Lutz has already said so.
OHV notec wrote:There are plenty of rediculously wealthy people who will hit this in a heartbeat (the GM badge may lessen the impact though unfortunately). Once you see celebrities arriving at movie premiers in it it will take off, just like the Prius.
However, if gas keeps dropping, the future for this car will be bleak for sure.
1: Gas MIGHT drop back to being day-to-day affordable, but don't count on it.
2: Electrical power is by far a cheaper and more flexible method to power a vehicle.
3: The idea is to bring the cost of owning one of these into the range that most people can afford, It'll have to be priced at under $50,000... and it'll probably get a monster price slash because of a government cash incentive.
The only problem I could think of with this is that the batteries could be hard to recycle. I'm not surprised that there are serious technical hurdles to making this car a reality, I'm also not entirely surprised that GM is the first to really attempt this on any scale.
I sincerely hope that the Volt lights a fire under the ass of the automotive industry. If the Volt can be paired up with a hydrogen engine, I do believe we'd have win on 4 wheels.
here are some more teaser shots...
