Labotomi wrote:The unions blackmailed the companies with the threat of striking and shutting down production. That's how they came to have these ridiculous packages. I've been around many union workers who were worthless but will continue to draw the same paycheck as the workers who put forth the best effort they can and that's screwed up. Do you really think it's a coincidence that the non unionized manufacturers are the most profitable.
The unions are screwing the manufacturers and their selves by not accepting restructured wages. Is it better to have the workers accept a wage cut to get more in-line with what their true value is to the company or keep overpaying them and cause plants to close or companies to go bankrupt?
I work for Nucor Steel who is nonunion. Many companies in the steel industry are unionized and there have been some attempts at unionizing Nucor which have always been voted down. Look at the past few years in the steel industry and notice which ones have been outperforming the sector. The non unionized plants are more efficient which equates to lower costs per ton and higher profit margins. Same thing goes for the auto industry.
And if you think I'm getting screwed, I'd be glad to compare wages/benefits and job security with any of the unionized plants.
Unions were a good thing years ago, but now there are many laws that protect the workers without having to resort to blackmail.
The unions blackmailed the companies? It's called collective barganing. The two sides sit down work out a deal that benefits both the company and the workers. A threat of a strike is no more blackmail than is a company lockout. You must have missed the part where I said the union and there members need to sit down and come to a deal that keeps the big three in good shape. That will benefit both the workers and the companies.
"I've been around many union workers who where worthless". Worthless workers are found in every company union or nonunion. I'm sure there are some where you work.
I don't know if you are getting screwed or not, only you know that.. I do not doubt that your wage and benefit pkg. might compare with the union companies , but the reason it does is because weither you know it or not your company has decided to give you those things in order to keep you and your fellow workers from voting in that union. What it comes down to is you are benefiting from the fact that the other steel companies are unionized. If suddenly all the steel companies were to become nonunion and one or two decided to lower there workers pay and benefits you would most certainly see your wages drop to the same level as the lower levels of the others.
Finally, what laws exactly are there that protect workers as you state. If there were these so called laws then Wal-mart would not have the number of lawsuits aganist it that they do.
Oh. And by the way Consumer Reports sucks!
New Yeller
Rice is nice,but where's the BEEF!
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New Yeller wrote:
"I've been around many union workers who where worthless". Worthless workers are found in every company union or nonunion. I'm sure there are some where you work
Actually, if their are then I don't know about them. The pay structure here is such that if someone isn't pulling their weight then everyone's paycheck suffers. If I didn't put forth my best effort then my coworkers would demand that I do or be replaced by someone who does and I demand the same from them. Everyone I've come into contact with busts their ass daily. Do a search for Nucor. There have been numerout case studies about out management philosophy. I'm not basing my opinion on this one company either, this isn't my first rodeo, I've worked other places and industries as well.
New Yeller wrote:Finally, what laws exactly are there that protect workers as you state. If there were these so called laws then Wal-mart would not have the number of lawsuits aganist it that they do.
The laws that make these lawsuits possible?
You didn't address why the most profitable companies are the non unionized ones. I've been around unions in various industries from steelworkers to the brotherhood of electrical workers to the various unions building submarines at General Dynamics. I've never seen a union shop that was efficient.
For example: at Electric Boat if we wanted a motor replaced (a small one)
1 the electricians had to remove power and lock out the source and unwire the motor
2 paperwork had to be filled out stating that this portion was complete
3 paperwork was routed to the mechanics
4 mechanics uncoupled the motor from the load
9:00 coffee break
5 paper work filled out once again
6 paperwork routed to riggers
7 riggers removed motor from submarine and brought another in
8 paperwork filled out
9 paperwork routed
12:00 Lunch time
10 mechanics re coupled motor
11 paperwork filled out
12 paperwork routed
13 electricans hooked up motor and removed locks
3:00 coffee break
14 paperwork filled out
15 paperwork routed to us (Navy) to be signed off as complete
With a small set of hand tools (screwdrivers, nutdrivers, wrenches) I could have done this in a couple of hours max including the documentation.
There also were people who painted the ships all day long making $20/hr. I found this a little extreme. Unskilled labor shouldn't demand wages in this range.
I'm sure there are times when the union provides beneficial services to the workers, but in general I think they hurt the economy more than they help. Maybe your experience with unions is differen't, but as many negatives I've seen, I'll never support them.
New Yeller wrote:Oh. And by the way Consumer Reports sucks!
Agreed
Sappy96 wrote:Emor8t wrote:RoNuS20 wrote:This is the most retarded list I've ever seen.
You can't predict reliability. You have to judge reliability based upon how long a car has been in production. They put a freaking Honda Ridgeline and the thing hasn't even been out that long!
But its a HONDUH
its like reading car and driver... import import imports, blah.
how is this biased towards american car makers in any way shape or form?
the ridgeline is an import, how do you know its more relaible then a chevy dodge or ford, none of which are all new vehicles this year like the ridgeline. the american products are proven products, whether thier track record is good or bad, its tested in real world and proven, the ridgeline is all new, how can it be proven more reliable than any of the big three in one year?
yeah, it's still just a prediction though... Remember Hyundai Sonata ranked the highest with the least problem last year compare to the number two seat honda civic? If Hyundai keep this up, they will be around the rank of Toyota and Honda. GM and Ford is just out of the story. Yes they are ok at the beginning, but ones you put some miles on them, you can junk them cars.
Click on this link. This guy de-constructs Consumer Reports' methods. He holds a degree in mathematics, so he would know...
Since the last time I read this page, he apparently was contacted by CR and told to modify his page. I give this guy lots of credit for keeping his page up even though I'm sure he was visited by platoon of lawyers...
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
geozinger wrote:Click on this link. This guy de-constructs Consumer Reports' methods. He holds a degree in mathematics, so he would know...
Crap, I hate when I get too many things going on... I really shouldn't post from work...
His degree is in organizational psychology
NOT mathematics...
Either way, lots of training in evaluating this stuff...
George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1
Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:^ exactly
ANY most reliable list without hyundai on it is BOGUS
hyundai has improved dramatically, but buddy there still alot more problamatic then there honda/toyota counterparts.....
your acting like their the greatest car company out there
97cavy22 wrote:Nathaniel O'Flaherty wrote:^ exactly
ANY most reliable list without hyundai on it is BOGUS
hyundai has improved dramatically, but buddy there still alot more problamatic then there honda/toyota counterparts.....
your acting like their the greatest car company out there
DEF NOT the greatest.
but THEY DO belong very high up on a new car reliability list.
:::
Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Like weekends? Thank the Unions.
Like paid overtime? Thank the Unions.
Like paid vacations? Thank the Unions.
Like group Medical Insurance? Thank the Unions.
Like being Middle Class? You guessed it...
If it's not network news, it's probably the truth getting out.
Some people are like slinkies: Not really good for anything,
but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them
down a flight of stairs.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote:Like weekends? Thank the Unions.
Like paid overtime? Thank the Unions.
Like paid vacations? Thank the Unions.
Like group Medical Insurance? Thank the Unions.
Like being Middle Class? You guessed it...
Like lockouts that force your friend's families into bankruptcy?
Like violence between scabs and employees?
Like even more monetary distractions for politicians?
Like firing someone for not doing their job and having a union reinstate them to their position?
Like delays in your project because work is slow and unions have no where to place your laborers?
Like sabotage on your jobsite to extend the timeline of the project?
Like having someone come into work drunk and/or hung over, trying to operate power tools and not being able to do a damn thing about it because they are the union representative on site?
Thanks unions.....for nothing.
Blueakron....are you pro union?
Sizzy's Security (NauticaZ) wrote:Blueakron....are you pro union?
I don't think so, but he's probably making $7.50 an hour with no benefits and loving every minute of it!
New Yeller
Rice is nice,but where's the BEEF!
02lssport.jpg
Can you tell?....dang I tried to hide it
I agree that they served a purpose...many years ago....but just like a cavalier with a 3' aluminum wing on it.....beautiful things can easily become ugly.............
New Yeller wrote:Sizzy's Security (NauticaZ) wrote:Blueakron....are you pro union?
I don't think so, but he's probably making $7.50 an hour with no benefits and loving every minute of it!
Nah....but I did just accept an offer for 46,000 plus full benefits with profit sharing and relocation allowances........union free of course.
Sorry for getting off topic by the way......unions are interesting to debate though....and safer than debating abortion or religion or the death penalty.........you really can't offend anyone.
you can offend someone w/ unions debates, trust me, ive seen it done
the listing procedures are flawed and therefore not worth the paper its written on except for to some fanboi people
other cars, better cars?
I have an example of bias in Car and Driver magazine.
These links go to Car and Drivers Best $35,000 sport sedan comparo.
The winner was a BMW 330i. During the entire review they explain all the electrical problems they had with the BRAND NEW TEST CAR. Yet it won first place.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9993&page_number=10
The eighth place car (out of eight) was the Saab 9-3 Aero which did not have any sort of electrical problems. They state that they couldn't even get the BMW to perform a stop test, because of electrical problems, yet the Saab had a hard time with the stop test in the weather conditions and they didn't hesitate to publish that flop.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=15&article_id=9993&page_number=3
The seventh place car was the Volvo S60R, which they even state in the review had much slower acceleration times than the last one they tested, which probably had something to do with the 115 degree temperature.... NO CRAP! Why would you test the performance of a car like these in that kind of climate, it's not an accerate dipiction of the car's performance.
I'm not going to go into all the different cars, but you'll see if you read the article that they actually pick the BMW to win the comparo, and have NO basis on their decision whatsoever. They just "liked it". Even though the push button starter didn't work, or the ABS, or the Airbag.....and they don't bother talking about any actual 0-60 or 1/4 times in the review either.... how convenient.
Not to mention the BMW was the second most expensive car in the group, MSRP: they don't bother to mention lol. Second only to Volvo, which was around $48k, much more than the $34k Saab.
Most magazines are slightly biased against imports. Not that imports are bad vehicles you can just tell by how they write them. The funniest thing on this list is the trucks. Lol, Honda Ridgeline has had tons of problems and I don't know if i'd even consider it a truck. Te Silverado has proved to be the most reliable over the years, and they've actually been used as trucks. Please note I have nothing against imports at all, just some magazine write-ups are bogus.
Quote:
Wow.. Only 1 non import.. Whatever, I don't buy it.. My Ion is still going strong.. GM all the way.
all imports what a bunch of
maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow....... but some day
Red TwoJayZee wrote:Sappy96 wrote:Red TwoJayZee wrote:Sappy96 wrote:have you ever read a consumer report?
they read somewhat biased to me.
Nah, just read about it, I checked up on wikipdedia and they did back up what you just said, they seem a lil biased towards U.S. automakers.
"Consumer Reports' tests and ratings of automobiles are highly controversial as some have charged that they are often biased against U.S. automobile companies."
that was confusing
i was referring to the point that they seem biased against us automakers
What I meant was, this is the first time I read about any Consumer Report review, and yes they are biased towards US automakers, Wikipedia seems to back that up.
Wikipedia = writen by anybody who signs up... So can your really trust wikipedia anymo9re then the cunsumer reviews..
My Cav
I give up...
i'm buying a VW those people love trees, so they should love eachother too... "Andy"
this is for new yeller about the unions, i work for wal mart myself and i will admit the pay isnt the best but the benefits arent bad by far i just personally choose not to use them or enroll for them and the other guy did have a point walmart is one of the largest profitting companies in the world right now and i personally dont understand why they cant pay there employees anymore either but im not making a career out of wal mart so im not going to bitch about the pay its just a stepping stone, and i make $8.20/hr mon-sat and $9.20/hr on sundays and i get payed vacations after a certain time frame of working there, i can have my weekends off if id like, i have medical and dental benefits, i get a discount there, i can invest in company stock and walmart will match upto $1800 a yr that i put in myself, etc. so i cant complain what i have available. its not $7.50/hr with no benefits but not the best either haha
The one, the only, ME.
I used to work for walmart my self, and there's a simple reason why you get benefits; They try to match, or in some cases, better the benefits unionized workers get. This way, workers stay happy, the union stays out, and walmart stays happy.
So, wether you like it or not, Directly or indirectly, unions benefit you.
"i promise we won't get drunk, and go out in boat in the dark, stand up in the boat and fire the gun into the air unless we have life jackets on."
Quote:
Wagons
Toyota Matrix
^ That completely discredits the whole list for me. The toyota matrix/pontiac vibe is of course a joint venture between GM and Toyota, and yet they failed to list the vibe. Bogus.
2000 2200 Cavalier: 9/14/2000--10/23/2006
2007 G85 SS S/C: 10/23/2006--Present
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