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Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environmental
Monday, October 24, 2005 7:00 PM
Environmental Group Questions Efficiency



October 24, 2005
BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

"Is Toyota a wolf in sheep's clothing?"

That's what a stinging national ad campaign against Toyota Motor Corp., launched today by a San Francisco-based environmental group, suggests. The ad is to run in Mother Jones online today and be printed soon in full-page ads in the New York Times and other publications.

Created by the Bluewater Network, a nonprofit organization that fights for clean air and water, the ads against Toyota are thought to be the first ever to attack a Japanese automaker on its environmental record in the United States.

Bluewater says Toyota's hybrids aren't as efficient as their non-hybrid versions and questions why the automaker is fighting tougher standards on fuel economy and emissions. They also note that while Toyota's overall fuel economy is the best in the industry, it is worse than it was 20 years ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

Toyota spokeswoman Nancy Hubbell said the automaker is disappointed by the campaign.

"Toyota is definitely the environmental leader, and we're extremely surprised," she said.

Bluewater is the same environmental group that launched a personal ad campaign against Ford Motor Co. last year, portraying Ford Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Bill Ford as Pinocchio and challenging the automaker's record on environmental issues.

Those ads, according to Bluewater, were largely a consequence of Ford portraying himself as an environmentalist, making promises and not keeping them.

Now, Bluewater is taking on Toyota.

"We don't enjoy playing the truth squad," Danielle Fugere, director of climate change at Bluewater, said. "But when the auto industry misleads the public, whether intentionally or not, someone's got to set the record straight."

The ads against Toyota are likely to be heralded by Detroit automakers, which have been crying foul for years now over Toyota's seemingly bulletproof image with consumers as the environmentally friendly automaker.

Toyota makes one-third of the hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles sold in the United States and has consequently benefited from Earth-friendly buzz -- even getting A-list celebrities to arrive at the Academy Awards in hybrid Prius compact cars as an environmentally conscious fashion statement.

But Bluewater's ads, which were obtained by the Free Press last week, show Toyota CEO Katsuaki Watanabe in the foreground and a man wearing a wolf head in the background. The ads list a series of concerns about Toyota.

Foremost, the group questions why Toyota's newest hybrids don't get much better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions.

The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per gallon in a week-long test drive this year on a range of driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The EPA rating shows the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g. highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander, meanwhile, was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much closer to the actual results in the hybrid.

Other journalists have found similar results, Bluewater notes in its ad, calling the Highlander and Lexus RX 400h "gas guzzlers with no better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions."

"If this is the precedent for Toyota's future hybrids, that will be bad news for global warming and our dependence on foreign oil," the ad says.

Hubbell of Toyota defended the company's hybrid vehicles, saying they are more efficient than their gasoline counterparts. What's more, she said they are 80% cleaner in emissions.

Bluewater also asks why Toyota is working with other automakers to resist federal efforts to raise national fuel mileage standards and suing to block California's proposed regulations to reduce smog and greenhouse gas pollution.

Hubbell said Toyota is lobbying for regulations that are "rational and national," to avoid a patchwork system of standards "that would be a nightmare" to comply with for manufacturers.

The ads also note that the average fuel mileage of Toyota vehicles is worse today than it was 20 years ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's 2005 Fuel Economy Trends report. In 2005, Toyota's fleet averaged 27.5 miles per gallon, the highest among manufacturers. But the company performed better in 1985, with its fleet averaging 30.0 miles per gallon, the EPA report shows.

While Toyota has a stable of fuel-efficient cars, including the hybrid Prius, it also makes the Land Cruiser SUV (17 m.p.g. on the highway); Sequoia SUV (18 m.p.g.); 4Runner SUV (21 m.p.g.), and Tundra Double Cab (18 m.p.g.). Those vehicles have helped lower Toyota's overall fuel economy.

"Toyota has a lot of explaining to do," Bluewater's ads say. "We thought Toyota cared about the environment. ... Is this the same company that brought us the hybrid Prius, claiming to be an environmental leader?"

The ads provide Toyota's telephone number and encourage consumers to call and ask Toyota to "build more fuel-efficient cars and end Toyota's opposition to critical U.S. environmental policies."



other cars, better cars?

Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Monday, October 24, 2005 7:12 PM
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,12529-1815687,00.html
another article about the lexus rs400h



other cars, better cars?
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Monday, October 24, 2005 8:01 PM
I just read this a few hours ago, don't remember where I saw it......another forum possibly, but I think it's about time someone takes a swing at Toyota publically.



Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:08 AM
Quote:

The ads against Toyota are likely to be heralded by Detroit automakers, which have been crying foul for years now over Toyota's seemingly bulletproof image with consumers as the environmentally friendly automaker.


LOL
no consumers vision is they get a better built, far more reliable car from Toyota. and 90% of Detroits product is garbage. the big 3 would do anything to be able to throw rocks at toyota.......except try to be better than them.

whatever happened to "if you can't beat them, join them". till i see cars from Detroit that actually can match Toyota's quality it's all a bunch of spin and hot air.

And they only are complaining about the hybird highlander, and it's lexus twin....big suprise they suck. they are still trucks. Notice they don't rip into the Prius anywhere in that article. And let's remember the hybird Ford Escape is getting the same exact bad press on poor fuel economy. At least with Ford this company had a real gripe, the Excursion was totally uncalled for. And for Bill Ford to go on and on about being an evnromentalst after supporting the go-ahead to build this huge waste....was poor taste.

I find it funny these ad's are only running in the Detroit Free Press...becuase that's the only place where anybody cares. boo-hoo Detroit....shut up and build better cars.



"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net

Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:16 AM
JAMMIT wrote:
Quote:

The ads against Toyota are likely to be heralded by Detroit automakers, which have been crying foul for years now over Toyota's seemingly bulletproof image with consumers as the environmentally friendly automaker.


LOL
no consumers vision is they get a better built, far more reliable car from Toyota. and 90% of Detroits product is garbage. the big 3 would do anything to be able to throw rocks at toyota.......except try to be better than them.

whatever happened to "if you can't beat them, join them". till i see cars from Detroit that actually can match Toyota's quality it's all a bunch of spin and hot air.

And they only are complaining about the hybird highlander, and it's lexus twin....big suprise they suck. they are still trucks. Notice they don't rip into the Prius anywhere in that article. And let's remember the hybird Ford Escape is getting the same exact bad press on poor fuel economy. At least with Ford this company had a real gripe, the Excursion was totally uncalled for. And for Bill Ford to go on and on about being an evnromentalst after supporting the go-ahead to build this huge waste....was poor taste.

I find it funny these ad's are only running in the Detroit Free Press...becuase that's the only place where anybody cares. boo-hoo Detroit....shut up and build better cars.


you cant say it better than Jammit just did. Youre not gonna get 50 MPG from a Highlander, hybrid or not. Where are GM's hybrids? Oh wait thats right, they ae behind the times as usual.



Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:36 AM
of course ur not gunna get GOOD gas mileage from a SUV


however, their hybrid gets almost identical gas mileage as the non hybrid SUV.

thats JUST NOT RIGHT

charge a few thousand extra for NOTHING.



:::Creative Draft Image Manipulation Forum:::
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 8:42 AM
I am not making excuses for Toyota. But dont you find it fishy that the only people making a stink about it is a Detroit FREE newspaper?? If this was true, i guarantee it would be in every car magazine, news report, ect. It may be true, but it just seems weird



Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:02 AM
when plunking down cash for a hybird it's best to do research, research, research. It's to new a technology to just go on hearsey. Common sense would be an SUV is heavy, a hybird is also heavy. combine the two you have a small tank....no amount of hybird anything is going to help you avoid the fact the thing weighs a bigillion tons, which in turn will help deter any amount of fuel savings.

to me a hybird SUV is as worthless as a solar powered flashlight. The regular Highlander gets as good or better fuel economy because it's ALOT lighter. Is someone an idiot to spend the premium price to own one.....yes. but they'll still have a better vehicle than anything the big 3 put out. It's all typical Detroit spin.



"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net

Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:23 AM
JAMMIT wrote:yes. but they'll still have a better vehicle than anything the big 3 put out. It's all typical Detroit spin.


Will you marry me Jammit!! LOL

Thats the key phrase right there. The Highlander is better looking, again in IMHO than any SUV in its class. It will also outlast and have a higher resale value than anything the bIg 3 has in its class



Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 9:48 AM
Did anyone posting here read the article? The ads will be running in Mother Jones and the New York Times. NOT in the Detroit Free Press. Nowhere is it mentioned that the ad will run in the Free Press. They don't list any other magazines or newspapers, so time will tell who else picks up the ads.

The point to all of this is this: The hybrids are advertised as getting better gas mileage, ergo, good for the environment. If in actual practice the hybrids DON'T get better mileage, then what is the point of their advertising this?

You don't know me in person, but I would probably not be one of the people the Bluewater network would ask for a contribution. Hell, I want all of the 'save-the-world' types to go out and buy three or four fuel-efficient vehicles so I can have cheap gas for my future GTO.

On the other hand, I have never been able to figure out how selling Priuses on the same lot as Land Cruisers (Land Crushers) gets Toyota the 'green seal of approval'.





George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1


Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:02 AM
What I am referring to is the fact that someone from the Free Press did the testing. Have these numbers been verified by anyone? One test does not make a 100% case study




Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:21 AM
Oh no? Not in the free press?

Quote:

October 24, 2005
BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER


Quote:

But Bluewater's ads, which were obtained by the Free Press last week


Mother Jones online is a Detroit based news firm.

sure YOU read it?



"Formerly known as Jammit - JBO member since 1998" JBOM | CSS.net

Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 11:28 AM
JAMMIT wrote:Oh no? Not in the free press?

Quote:

October 24, 2005
BY SARAH A. WEBSTER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER


Quote:

But Bluewater's ads, which were obtained by the Free Press last week


Mother Jones online is a Detroit based news firm.

sure YOU read it?


Read your quote (of the article): obtained by the Free Press last week

Note that it does not say the ads are running in the Free Press. Just that they were obtained by the Free Press. I would expect that if Ms Webster were going to write an article about the ads, she would want to see (obtain) them.

I didn't know that MJ online was from Detroit. I learn something new everyday How does that relate to the Free Press, though? I'm not aware that the Free Press owns or has anything to do with Mother Jones. Although, I would expect a magazine of that nature to run these ads.

As for the mileage issue read these links:

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63541,00.html

http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,63413,00.html

These show Honda and Toyota hybrid owners who are not thrilled about their mileage.

If I would have Googled, I probably would have found more, but I don't have the time right now. (Work, you know. If I didn't need the $$'s, I sure could find a better use for my time.)

Nonetheless, I still don't understand why Toyota gets a pass on the environmental questions when a lot of their US offerings are just as hard on fuel as other manufacturers.




George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1


Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 11:48 AM
I think its because they are at least making an effort, where as other companies are not



Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:22 PM
so if say car company x made an effort and it failed
would you still defend them?

Toyota still has big suv's.

Sounds alot like what you are saying about ford. Sure Mr. Ford should have worded it like that but whose to say he doesn't care about the environment. Dudes gotta eat and make share holders happy to.

So Toyota gets a pass because well they are Toyota and Ford go to hell basically?

Thats the way it sounds anyway.



other cars, better cars?
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 6:37 PM
Everyone has big SUV's. I dont think i said anything about Ford. But i am 99% sure that Toyotas biggest SUV gets better gas mileage than an Expedition.

And Toyota has not failed, neither has honda. They each have hybrid cars that get amazing gas mileage.

Honestly, a better study needs to be done than one guy from the Free Press of Detroit. I would say the same about any company in this situation. You can twist facts and half truths any which way to make an ad campaign. Remember the election ads??



Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:02 PM
If you made a hybrid that showed the same gas mileage as a non hybrid, that isnt failing in some sense?



other cars, better cars?
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:10 PM
Sizzy's Security (NauticaZ) wrote:
JAMMIT wrote:
Quote:

The ads against Toyota are likely to be heralded by Detroit automakers, which have been crying foul for years now over Toyota's seemingly bulletproof image with consumers as the environmentally friendly automaker.


LOL
no consumers vision is they get a better built, far more reliable car from Toyota. and 90% of Detroits product is garbage. the big 3 would do anything to be able to throw rocks at toyota.......except try to be better than them.

whatever happened to "if you can't beat them, join them". till i see cars from Detroit that actually can match Toyota's quality it's all a bunch of spin and hot air.

And they only are complaining about the hybird highlander, and it's lexus twin....big suprise they suck. they are still trucks. Notice they don't rip into the Prius anywhere in that article. And let's remember the hybird Ford Escape is getting the same exact bad press on poor fuel economy. At least with Ford this company had a real gripe, the Excursion was totally uncalled for. And for Bill Ford to go on and on about being an evnromentalst after supporting the go-ahead to build this huge waste....was poor taste.

I find it funny these ad's are only running in the Detroit Free Press...becuase that's the only place where anybody cares. boo-hoo Detroit....shut up and build better cars.


you cant say it better than Jammit just did. Youre not gonna get 50 MPG from a Highlander, hybrid or not. Where are GM's hybrids? Oh wait thats right, they ae behind the times as usual.


GM isn't behind the times they are beyond hybrids. It just wasn't feesable to make hybrids for the little actual savings someone would get on real world driving. The Key is Real World driving. Then the cost to produce these hybrids compared to the regular without enough gas savings

Awhile back GM put electric assists on there Trucks but it cost an extra $2000 and the media jumped on them and said it was stupid. But now when Honda and Toyota does it. What a great Idea the big 3 should do this.

But GM is Beyond Electric Battery powered assist motors that just weight a vehicle down and going for more effeicent source.

Yes Toyota should get slammed for falsely advertising their vehicles performance just like they are getting hit by the new way to test HP ratings. Toyota is loosing HP while GM is gaining HP.





Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:11 PM
gm has decided to do some hybrids
for image sakes



other cars, better cars?
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Wednesday, October 26, 2005 8:28 AM
Sizzy's Security wrote: Honestly, a better study needs to be done than one guy from the Free Press of Detroit. I would say the same about any company in this situation. You can twist facts and half truths any which way to make an ad campaign. Remember the election ads??


Just for the record, the ads are put out by the Bluewater Network, not the Detroit Free Press. The business writer from the Free Press reviewed the ads. So far as I know the two are not connected.

As for ads, I think that Toyota has done an excellent job of convincing folks that the hybrids they offer are the solution to all of our fuel efficiency/emissions problems.

I happen to disagree.




George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1


Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Wednesday, October 26, 2005 9:56 AM
No, the ads are by Bluewater, but the actual testing was done by a writer for the Free Press




Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Wednesday, October 26, 2005 12:54 PM
Quote:

The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per gallon in a week-long test drive this year on a range of driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The EPA rating shows the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g. highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander, meanwhile, was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much closer to the actual results in the hybrid.



i love how this is written lol.

the epa rating is 33/28 for the hybrid
the epa rating is 19/25 for the gasoline.


thats all you need to know.

they only did a "real world" test of the hybrid and are comparing it to the gasoline's epa numbers.

the epa tests are almost impossible to re-create in real life, so a real world back to back test of the hybrid and the gasoline will create an accurate result.
to do this they must take 2 broken in trucks and drive them together for the week (although a week...1 tank of gas does not accurately re-creat a vehicles average performance) in the same conditions etc.

so basically their premise is

go back to the woods and suck off a tree.
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Wednesday, October 26, 2005 2:31 PM
epa test are usually off by maybe 2mpg
not enought to make up a difference

"Or will you? I drove carefully, enjoying the electric silence in town and only rarely putting my foot down hard. And yet it managed only 29mpg. I’ve had more out of that from our diesel Volvo XC90. And on top of this you must factor in the cost of running a hybrid. Think carefully about how much it costs to service a car with one engine, and then wonder how much it will cost to service one that has three."

from the article



other cars, better cars?
Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:06 AM
Sizzy's Security (NauticaZ) wrote:No, the ads are by Bluewater, but the actual testing was done by a writer for the Free Press


Re-reading the press release again, it seems they refer to a test that the Free Press did of the Highlander.

It's not clear if the test run by the Free Press had anything to do with the ads.

Here's the text from the press release:
The hybrid version of the Highlander got only 20.6 miles per gallon in a week-long test drive this year on a range of driving conditions by Free Press auto critic Mark Phelan. The EPA rating shows the vehicle gets 33 m.p.g. city/28 m.p.g. highway in federal tests. The non-hybrid Highlander, meanwhile, was rated 19 m.p.g. city/25 m.p.g. highway by the EPA -- much closer to the actual results in the hybrid.

Other journalists have found similar results, Bluewater notes in its ad, calling the Highlander and Lexus RX 400h "gas guzzlers with no better fuel economy than their non-hybrid versions."

(bold emphasis mine)

I'm looking at this selection, but I don't see a direct linkage between the Free Press and the Bluewater Network. I think that the Free Press's test is mentioned as an aside to the ads, not as inspiration for the ads.




George (geozinger)
'95 Sunfire GT-my second Pontiac from Hell!
'97 Cavy Beater-still running like a champ!
'04 Sunfire - my kid's car, but I get the bills...
'09 Pontiac G6 - Sport Package 1


Re: Toyota's New Green Image Battered by Environme
Thursday, October 27, 2005 10:13 AM
you still cant compare a real world test (was the focus of the test economy? how well it works in the mountains? off-road? track test?.... get my drift?) with an epa test.

there is no accuracy in the statement made.

it is bogus plain and simple. it is a highly biased article with no responsible information gathering.
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