I'm not dissing superchargers, I'm simply trying to learn so I can see the light...
Why do J-owners supercharge? From what I've seen here on JBO, a s/c'd 2.4L or 2.2L Eco runs a little over 1 second faster in the quarter than stock. What is the point?
Here are the pro's I can think of:
No boost lag
Cheaper than turbo (Usually)
Less can go wrong
Here are the con's I can think of:
Worse gas mileage than stock, all the time
Low boost
Near-stock 1/4 mile times
Raising boost requires changing pulleys
Any turbo'd J with a poorly tuned setup is at least a couple seconds faster than stock. And if you tune the injectors right, you get same-as-stock gas mileage, if not better.
The only supercharged J-body I've ever seen run in person was Laverty's Cavalier, and it wasn't all that impressive. He showed up at the track, popped the hood, everyone Oooh'd and Aaah'd at his clean engine bay, he made like 2 passes down the track, and he was done for the night. If I recall correctly, I ran over to watch him make a pass to see what the charger did for him, and it wasn't all that impressive. Nice car, but not fast.
Someone open my eyes and just let me know why people supercharge J-bodies? Again, I am NOT dissing superchargers in general. I have a friend with a '94 SVT Cobra, 327 Stroker, Procharger Supercharger System, and that thing will do wheelies on the street! It's SO damn mean.
Gotta go run some deliveries now.
Worse gas mileage than stock, all the time
Not true with non roots type blowers my mileage has actually increased
Less can go wrong
Damn straight changing a belt every 10K is hardly that bad
Near-stock 1/4 mile times
Not True, only reason mines around the same is due to my audio obession, if it were stock weight id be much faster
Kitted show cars are usually not fast, thats no surprise, not to mention the GM 2.4 charger is only 4.5psi with the stock pulley
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Well maybe I will field this one, you are a little off on a few things.
Your pros are okay as far as the SC goes, but with turbo setups you will normally see harder tuning, I know many Js which do not run good at all at the track with a turbo, due to poor tuning or other reasons. Most turbo Js run about a second faster, I dont know of many with equal boost to a supercharger that run faster. The GM SC stock pulley runs 4.5 PSI, many have seen mid 14s, one second faster than stock. Now take a turbo kit and put 4.5 psi, times should be pretty close if not slower.
As far as gas mileage, you could not be more wrong. In fact some see better fuel mileage with the supercharger. People running higher boost turbos run larger injectors and usually more fuel. You do have to remember that each turbo/supercharger set up is different for what it does.
As far as pulley go, it really is comperable to a turbo, if you have the quick change hub then it doesnt take that long and requires minimum tools. For a turbo you either have a boost controller or change the spring in the waste gate, that to me would seem to be harder.
Every set up is different. For me, I need my car to be reliable and I had faith in what GM manufactured with all their designing so I went GM SC. The price is so cheap also for guarenteed performance and safety.
In spring my new engine will be done, eagle rods, crank, JE pistons, lowered compression .020 over bore and a few more things. I will have my GM charger on it and hopefully put down some good numbers and be reliable. We will see what next year has in store and I will hopefully put a little faith in the GM SC for ya.
I know I said it four times, but every set up is different. If you want guarenteed performance get the GM SC for SC, and I have seen great things from the Hahn Racecraft turbo kit, whatever you specialty is.
My view,
Chris
http://members.cardomain.com/vertz24 1998 Z24 Convertible
Hey Chris,
You may or may not remember me, I was at one of Ben's cookouts in Huntington like 3 years ago. Was the only Sunfire. I remember you rolling into the park with your 19's.
Anyway, as far as the gas mileage is concerned, I was speaking in terms of being able to stay out of boost on a turbocharged car... But I guess the S/C Reflash would tune the injectors on a supercharged application.
I'm learning!
well i went from a average of 16.1 , with a best of 16.0
to a 14.6 with the s/c , i gained alot and all i added was the s/c
and my gas milage hasnt gotten any worse , but 90% of my driving is around town , and my 00 got crappy milage before , only difference is running 91 now instead of 87
my best with a turbo was less than my best n/a time , mostly blamed on the crappy asshat company that built the kit on my car
Chris,
Sorry I got you mixed up with Foresta. Lol! Oops.
If you go pounds of boost for pounds of boost your gains will be about the same. How often do you see a turbo runnin only 4.5 lbs of boost though. A supercharged car will typically have more power down low then a turbo also. Generally a supercharged car prodused more Torque also. they are easier to tune and more predictable then a turbo also. The limiting factor right now is the M45 kits cant produse the CFM needed to the big power #'s. Right now as it is well known I am in the middle of producing M62 kits. Running simminlar boost the M62 will rival just about any turbo kit. BlackZ2401's GM charger Z24 beat pretty much every Mustang Gt's he ran. And they werent stock cars, they were bolted. With the kit that I am makeing he will be LS1 hunting and hitting 300 hp. Not bad if you ask me, but to each is own. I personally dont like turbo's and will probably always build blower cars. Hell my Project LS1 is gonna be ATI prochaged running 8's.
2002 Z28: Slp coldair Pac, Corsa Catback, 3200 stall
lol that girl in the pic is sucking in her belly.
But i lost 1.4 seconds with my supercharger. There are alot of supercharged Jbodies because of GM and there kit. It makes it so simple and easy to have boost. It really is a bolt on kit. And like said before its very predictable with the power. No boost spikes.
Plus who doesnt love a supercharger whine.
2006 Black Cobalt SS Supercharged G85
13.91@102.77
kitted Mustangs suck regardless of how fast they are
that is all
I give her a 6.5 out of 10. At least she beat the car.
j/k
I like her and the car minus the kit. . And I also like turbos rather than superchargers but they are cool too.
01 Z24 Turbo
Joe Schulte (JoeDM) wrote:kitted Mustangs suck regardless of how fast they are
that is all
X2. i dont care how fast it is... its fugly..
i supercharged cuz its a true bolt on kit, does not void warranty, has its own warranty, safe on internals with stock pulley, reliable, sounds amazing.. list can be endless
sure the GM s/c kit isnt the best power increaser in the world... but i dont see u making any supercharger kits for the 2.4....or any boost kits for that matter...
and ive seen better girls at the local tractor pulls...
take ur car to the track this weekend shaggy.. lets see what it runs... my supercharger was installed in a half a day....hows ur turbo setup coming?
BeardLife /
Club Awesome Reject Blog
well i wont get into why i think superchargers are a great power adder because i also beleive turbos are amazing its really all about what you choose to do for your application. As many have stated the gm s/c kits and the rsm kits are direct bolt ons which only really take a few hours to install and you've made your car anywhere between 1-1.5 seconds faster. I personally chose to go s/c after i got a great deal on my kit from having a buddy who works at GM get me an employee discount. The one downside to the gm roots type s/c which i havent heard many talk about yet is the inability to intercool it, which restricts the level of boost the m45 can produce without getting detonation. The only real option which i and many of us have done is to run an alcohol injection kit. Currently my car is running 10.5psi with my alky kit and next year with the 2.5" pulley and alky i should be hitting close to 12psi. This is great for what im looking to do with my car, but i think the largest downside to a s/c is the limits it has. With my ported out s/c and the smallest pulley i can run im pretty much done at 12psi unlike a turbo which depending on size can hit just about any psi your heart desires. As for your cons well my gas mileage is about 32mph on the highway, stock i was only around 30mpg. Your forgetting that boost on the s/c is vacuum oriented and is controlled by the s/c bypass valve, when the car is not under a certain load the car is not under boost it is under vacuum, just as a turbo. Cruising down the highway s/c cars are not making boost. Finally the 1/4 mile time for alot of people isnt that big of a deal, they are more concerned with getting added power and drivability, for those of us who have been pushing the limits with the gm s/c and tweaking it here and there we've managed to get some pretty impressive times. My best run to date is 13.26@107mph at 10.5psi. From what ive seen from turbo j's thats about comparable to any 10psi turbo setup out there. The biggest factor on any of this is tuning, if the turbo kit is not tuned in prorperly your likely to see very minimal gains, same goes for s/c guys who arent running the reflash (us pre 2000 guys) Anyways hope this clears things up a bit
607 Motorsports is your one stop performance and car specialties shop, we can do anything your imagination holds. Check us out at www.cardomain.com/id/jimmyc99z24
I bought a supercharger for a few reasons:
reliability: i currently am not at home for 99% of the time, and on the road, i cant mess with stuff.
complete: injectors, a computer reprogram (VERY important unless you run a real system setup, not just piggybacking bandaids), and even down to the nitty gritty like nuts and bolts.
no lag: i have an auto, and lag, well that just sucks.
as for the fuel, i will say that the way the supercharger is designed, there is a bypass valve that opens and bypasses the rotors, so you dont create boost. this saves gas. I personally have seen the exact same fuel numbers i used to see before the charger (if i stay out of boost of course
)
supercharger was the best bet for the money for me. i'd wish i could run high boost, but thats just too much unreliable work that i have to put in. maybe in the future, but not now.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
Qwik2k2z24 wrote:sure the GM s/c kit isnt the best power increaser in the world... but i dont see u making any supercharger kits for the 2.4....or any boost kits for that matter...
Umm, ok? I made more of a boost kit than you, by piecing together a CUSTOM kit, not buying a pre-made one. I'm not bashing those that bought a pre-made kit, but this guy is BRAGGING about it! Again, I am NOT bashing you guys that bought Hahn kits, GM kits, Jtuners kits, etc. Boost is boost.
Qwik2k2z24 wrote:and ive seen better girls at the local tractor pulls...
Like
these? Shame shame.
Qwik2k2z24 wrote:take ur car to the track this weekend shaggy.. lets see what it runs...
...and you went from 15.096 (N/A) in the quarter to 14.868 (S/C) for a couple grand? Look at your timeslips. That's about as much as a CAI gain. The
track here locally is closed for the season. They closed the last week of September. My turbocharger is in Canada being rebuilt at Blaast Performance (It just made it to Canada yesterday after two and a half weeks of being in the hands of customs), I've only had my car out on the road one day in the past 3 months and that is when I found out the seals were blown on my turbo, and lastly, my car has 168,000 miles on the odometer. So I bet I'm not trying to make a track car, eh? Just a "reliable power increaser", as you put it. Low boost = higher chance of reliability, with either means of forced induction.
Qwik2k2z24 wrote:my supercharger was installed in a half a day
Because your dealership installed it?
Qwik2k2z24 wrote:....hows ur turbo setup coming?
It's actually coming along pretty well. [
clicky] Between the help from Chris (SunfighterGT), Luke (dragracemyz24), Jeff (Kane5576), Brandon (97blkz24), and dad for all the help with welding my charge pipes, the car absolutely screams. (Literally, too. - Turbo spool and bov sounds nice.)
I don't know why you took everything as a personal attack, but whatever you want man.
jimmyc99z24 wrote:well i wont get into why i think superchargers are a great power adder because i also beleive turbos are amazing its really all about what you choose to do for your application. As many have stated the gm s/c kits and the rsm kits are direct bolt ons which only really take a few hours to install and you've made your car anywhere between 1-1.5 seconds faster. I personally chose to go s/c after i got a great deal on my kit from having a buddy who works at GM get me an employee discount. The one downside to the gm roots type s/c which i havent heard many talk about yet is the inability to intercool it, which restricts the level of boost the m45 can produce without getting detonation. The only real option which i and many of us have done is to run an alcohol injection kit. Currently my car is running 10.5psi with my alky kit and next year with the 2.5" pulley and alky i should be hitting close to 12psi. This is great for what im looking to do with my car, but i think the largest downside to a s/c is the limits it has. With my ported out s/c and the smallest pulley i can run im pretty much done at 12psi unlike a turbo which depending on size can hit just about any psi your heart desires. As for your cons well my gas mileage is about 32mph on the highway, stock i was only around 30mpg. Your forgetting that boost on the s/c is vacuum oriented and is controlled by the s/c bypass valve, when the car is not under a certain load the car is not under boost it is under vacuum, just as a turbo. Cruising down the highway s/c cars are not making boost. Finally the 1/4 mile time for alot of people isnt that big of a deal, they are more concerned with getting added power and drivability, for those of us who have been pushing the limits with the gm s/c and tweaking it here and there we've managed to get some pretty impressive times. My best run to date is 13.26@107mph at 10.5psi. From what ive seen from turbo j's thats about comparable to any 10psi turbo setup out there. The biggest factor on any of this is tuning, if the turbo kit is not tuned in prorperly your likely to see very minimal gains, same goes for s/c guys who arent running the reflash (us pre 2000 guys) Anyways hope this clears things up a bit
Cool, I didn't know about the S/C bypass valve... All I took into consideration with a supercharger was that it added something else to what the belt had to run. Therefore, it was taking more power to turn and your car would drink more gas at idle. Why haven't superchargers come out with a clutch on the pulley like an A/C clutch? Just flip a switch to kick it in? Or is that what the bypass valve is? Interesting information about the gas mileage, too. First time I've seen numbers. Doesn't sound too bad after learning more about it. I guess I just went with turbo because I understood it easier, and wanted to turbo spool and bov sound *along with* boost. With my turbo kit, I pieced a bunch of parts together that were very affordable... I didn't have the money to front up for a $1,500+ supercharger. I bought everything individually within a couple months worth of time.
i love my s/c for a few reasons.
GM built it so you wont have to monkey with anything.
i hate oil leaks and exhuast work, that is the two main things with a turbo.
i like both s/c and turbo. but i wanted a reliable car. so far so good. and i get 30mpg.
all depends on what you want outta your car. put i am thrilled with my mods and the stock gm s/c pully.
m0 wrote:Why haven't superchargers come out with a clutch on the pulley like an A/C clutch? Just flip a switch to kick it in?
because while the charger takes up some power, its not THAT hard to spin it. its not like an a/c compressor that actually soaks up a big load.
as for the bypass valve, imagine a throttle body butterfly. there ya go.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
I think the whole issue is that you come on here "trying to learn", but then you toss in your feelings about Chris Laverty's car, which was a showcar that had the S/C for nothing but show points........and that fact that it was most likely given to him by GM. I wouldn't expect anything impressive out of it myself.
Read around this forum, with a smaller pulley and alchohol injection I could be even with most turbo cars, granted I lack the adjustability so there is a certain point I can't compete obviously....but on stock internals the S/C does more than enough for me.
Reliability/badass whine/less maintenance/no lag.....I love the GM S/C.
......and Mustangs with bodykits look horrible.
Quote:
Why haven't superchargers come out with a clutch on the pulley like an A/C clutch? Just flip a switch to kick it in?
Mercedes S/Cs has the clutch type
m0 wrote:Why supercharge?
In my case.
Pros:
1. GM designed and engineered
2. I paid a little over $1800 (new) more then a year ago
3. S/C whine is fun
4. Reliability
5. No void of warranty
6. My MPG avg went 1 up to 23MPG in 90% city driving
Cons:
1. Now I use premium fuel usage (Is expected in a forced induction engine)
2. Resonance on SC shell when A.C. is on.
Mainly I really liked the idea it was GM that did this, if GM did a turbo for our engine I'd jump on that just the same.
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
m0 wrote:I'm not dissing superchargers, I'm simply trying to learn so I can see the light...
Why do J-owners supercharge? From what I've seen here on JBO, a s/c'd 2.4L or 2.2L Eco runs a little over 1 second faster in the quarter than stock. What is the point?
Here are the pro's I can think of:
No boost lag
Cheaper than turbo (Usually)
Less can go wrong
Here are the con's I can think of:
Worse gas mileage than stock, all the time
Low boost
Near-stock 1/4 mile times
Raising boost requires changing pulleys
Any turbo'd J with a poorly tuned setup is at least a couple seconds faster than stock. And if you tune the injectors right, you get same-as-stock gas mileage, if not better.
The only supercharged J-body I've ever seen run in person was Laverty's Cavalier, and it wasn't all that impressive. He showed up at the track, popped the hood, everyone Oooh'd and Aaah'd at his clean engine bay, he made like 2 passes down the track, and he was done for the night. If I recall correctly, I ran over to watch him make a pass to see what the charger did for him, and it wasn't all that impressive. Nice car, but not fast.
Someone open my eyes and just let me know why people supercharge J-bodies? Again, I am NOT dissing superchargers in general. I have a friend with a '94 SVT Cobra, 327 Stroker, Procharger Supercharger System, and that thing will do wheelies on the street! It's SO damn mean.
Gotta go run some deliveries now.
Note - I am only refering to the GM Performance Parts Supercharger kit, i don't like anything about the RSM kit.
There is not one single turbo kit on the market that can ever come close to the quality and reliability of the GM s/c kit. No other kit comes with 100% of everything you need including real tuning as well as maintaining your factory warranty. With that said, people s/c for a reliable, predictable power increase across the entire rpm range. Some people just want a decent (40-50hp) power increase and to never have to worry about parts failing. If someone wants to make more power and ultimatly risk damaging their motor then this kit isn't for them, simple as that. The GM s/c kit will retain near factory gas milage.
BTW, that Mustang is ricetastic!
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Yea the bypass valve is very simple, operated on vaccum so car runs like completely stock at idle. When you punch it vaccum closes the valve and then you get instant boost and awesome whine. Thats an interesting idea about the clutch, however like the AC however it would probably wear out and hang up.
Every single bolt is included in the kit, so no piecing together random bolts and bubble gumming parts. I paid $2000 for my entire kit with 320 CC injectors, Cartech FMU, 2.7" pulley, 255 LPH Fuel Pump, Apexi SAFC 2. So about 900$ worth of fuel stuff and the charger, not bad in my book.
As for the install, I installed it myself with minimal tools with my Dad and we both had no complete instructions or any knowledge of boost. The whole kit went in in under four hours. If given the opportunity again I could easily do it in less. Best part is when it was done, I got in turned the key and went to the store. Completely reliable and almost no tuning at all.
You added one more reason however to get a SC, your turbo needs to be rebuilt, HOWEVER the GM Supercharger never needs service, ask Mr. Goodwrench
How much you got in your turbo kit, and whats it consist of. If Kane555 helped ya then you should have a pretty nice kit.
Good luck
Chris
http://members.cardomain.com/vertz24 1998 Z24 Convertible
in my book, boost is boost bnut I want a lot.. and turning the knob takes less then a second.. instead of changing pulleys... so thats why i went turbo, plus CNFX did it and did it good
LE61T PTE6262 Powered
Chris Fontana wrote:Yea the bypass valve is very simple, operated on vaccum so car runs like completely stock at idle. When you punch it vaccum closes the valve and then you get instant boost and awesome whine. Thats an interesting idea about the clutch, however like the AC however it would probably wear out and hang up.
Every single bolt is included in the kit, so no piecing together random bolts and bubble gumming parts. I paid $2000 for my entire kit with 320 CC injectors, Cartech FMU, 2.7" pulley, 255 LPH Fuel Pump, Apexi SAFC 2. So about 900$ worth of fuel stuff and the charger, not bad in my book.
As for the install, I installed it myself with minimal tools with my Dad and we both had no complete instructions or any knowledge of boost. The whole kit went in in under four hours. If given the opportunity again I could easily do it in less. Best part is when it was done, I got in turned the key and went to the store. Completely reliable and almost no tuning at all.
You added one more reason however to get a SC, your turbo needs to be rebuilt, HOWEVER the GM Supercharger never needs service, ask Mr. Goodwrench How much you got in your turbo kit, and whats it consist of. If Kane555 helped ya then you should have a pretty nice kit.
Good luck
Chris
Sounds like a nice setup!
Jeff has helped me with anything I've asked about, and so have the other guys I mentioned. They've all helped me with something. I'm actually using Kane's old turbo manifold. I've asked alot of questions, and have learned alot.
My turbo kit is up to about $2,700. That's *with* complete fuel mods. Not too expensive, but I also didn't cheap out on anything. The only thing I wish I had was a turbo timer, but I'll live without it for a while. I'll be running low boost, but like I said earlier, that's what I'm planning. I want a highly streetable car. My Sunfire is my daily driver (I've been driving my Astro Van (4.3L V6) since my car has been in the garage for a few months) and has 168,000+ miles on it. I want it to last. And from when I had it out on the street a few Saturdays ago, all is well. (Except the damn oil leak!)
The first thing I wanna do when I get my turbo back and on the car, and the thing that bothers me the most is: MY CAR IS FILTHY after being in the garage for so long. The engine bay is going to get a good cleaning as well as the rest of the car itself.
