Twin Charged?? - Boost Forum
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I've heard of one twin charged J-body (props Josh F), and I was wondering if there are any more, esp. with a built engine, or if Josh F has gotten his car back up and running, with new internals.
I think i am the only one.... obviously there could be some one else just not on this site...
As for internals.. the new engine is bone stock .. but i put a few more goodies on it for this season... looking to put in the built engine for next season (unless this one blows before then)...
every one just things its not worth it or wont work (more just not worth it) but after doing it and the responce i got from the guy who tuned it... it was WELL!! worth it..
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Josh is the only one crazy enough
I have all the parts to do it though.......
SPD RCR Z -
'02 Z24 420whp
SLO GOAT -
'04 GTO 305whp
W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
hmmmm be intryesting.....
that LG0 block, with that LD9 crank...... your turbo kit.... my blower......... the purple car.......hmmm
but there goes the daily driver........
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
toyotaz87 wrote:I've heard of one twin charged J-body (props Josh F), and I was wondering if there are any more, esp. with a built engine, or if Josh F has gotten his car back up and running, with new internals.
The only real purpose of it is to be different. There for if others did it, it would be pointless...
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Josh, how is yours set up? are the turbo and s/c in line, or... some other way? if they're in-line, which one is first? I've heard of twin-charging only generally- i've never really gotten any specifics. the first kit i heard about was a turbo kit for an s/c Mini Cooper S. It claimed 400 hp potential on a 1.6L engine (with a full engine build, i'm sure), using a Garrett GT35, which is monstrous for a normal 1.6L.
I just wanna know what's the most power anyone has put out on an LG0, LD9, W41, etc.
Skilz10179 wrote:toyotaz87 wrote:I've heard of one twin charged J-body (props Josh F), and I was wondering if there are any more, esp. with a built engine, or if Josh F has gotten his car back up and running, with new internals.
The only real purpose of it is to be different. There for if others did it, it would be pointless...
ahaha yea thats right its only to be different.. it has absolutely no benefits at all.. you know it all i forgot
...
toyotaz87 wrote:Josh, how is yours set up? are the turbo and s/c in line, or... some other way? if they're in-line, which one is first? I've heard of twin-charging only generally- i've never really gotten any specifics. the first kit i heard about was a turbo kit for an s/c Mini Cooper S. It claimed 400 hp potential on a 1.6L engine (with a full engine build, i'm sure), using a Garrett GT35, which is monstrous for a normal 1.6L.
I just wanna know what's the most power anyone has put out on an LG0, LD9, W41, etc.
- On my set up the turbo charge pipes go threw the intercooler and up into my supercharger....
- The waste gate on the turbo gets its signal from the boost pressure that is going into the engine (other wise you would see like 30psi ahaha) and then i do my final cooling with a shot of alcohol, i dont shoot that much in at all and my s/c'er is very cold and just gets colder the harder i run it... its when you let it sit and idle it will heat up.. but as soon as you get on the gas/boost it cools right down
- Some hondas who have this set up rig up a set up to by pass the s/c'er with top end, but i found there was no point in doing this, and the guy tuning it said there was no negitive affects with me not doing this either.. intake temps were still very cool... maybe if your shooting for like 400+whp but for me its fine @240whp
and yes you can run a much bigger turbo and spool it much faster with the s/c'er on there... it not only pulls the air threw the turbo instantly it is also pushing more gases threw the engine spooling it up faster as well... i know some guys are using the same turbo i am, but in a turbo only set up... but how many 2.4L with bone stock internals and bone stock head can spool up a T3/T4E 60 trim with a .63 A/R and a stage 3 wheel to 10psi at around 1800 RPM... as far as i know that would be none... and thats with a 3.0" pulley.. if i went to stock 2.8" pulley that spool up time drops HUGE!!! but then you got to start dealing with tracktion...
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Josh F wrote:Skilz10179 wrote:toyotaz87 wrote:I've heard of one twin charged J-body (props Josh F), and I was wondering if there are any more, esp. with a built engine, or if Josh F has gotten his car back up and running, with new internals.
The only real purpose of it is to be different. There for if others did it, it would be pointless...
ahaha yea thats right its only to be different.. it has absolutely no benefits at all.. you know it all i forgot ...
I never said twin charging serves no purpose at all, but on your car it serves no purpose other than being different. You are getting none of the benefits that twin charging is based on.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Skilz10179 wrote:I never said twin charging serves no purpose at all, but on your car it serves no purpose other than being different. You are getting none of the benefits that twin charging is based on.
no your right im getting none of them
im not getting instant spool up of a fairly large turbo for a 2.4L
im not getting boost from 1000rpm, aka instant power
im not getting huge top end power as well
no your right again im only getting the power of the supercharger... the turbo isnt ever really hooked in ... bu shhhhhhhh no one has to know that
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Josh F wrote:Skilz10179 wrote:I never said twin charging serves no purpose at all, but on your car it serves no purpose other than being different. You are getting none of the benefits that twin charging is based on.
no your right im getting none of them
im not getting instant spool up of a fairly large turbo for a 2.4L
im not getting boost from 1000rpm, aka instant power
im not getting huge top end power as well
no your right again im only getting the power of the supercharger... the turbo isnt ever really hooked in ... bu shhhhhhhh no one has to know that
For the power you're making you could use a turbo alone and have instant boost, that alone is my point.
As for boost at 1000 rpm........... who cares, a motor will never be turning that slow under any racing conditions.
- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.
Agreed with Skillz (Jeremy)... from day 1 all we've said is the GMSC is a CFM Bottleneck up top, no matter how you look at it. A well sized turbo setup will perform better than an M45 in front of a turbo.
Nobody said you're faking it... all we're saying is the true benefit to twin charging, in your case, isn't being used - which is to spool up a huge turbo efficiently.
And your turbo isn't big enough to warrant a piggyback means to spool it. I get boost at 2000 rpm and full 20 psi @ 3800-4000 rpm depending on the gear... and the only thing bigger about your turbo over mine is the slight trim difference on the compressor... Who needs boost at 1000 rpm? ... gotta use the word GAS MILEAGE somewhere in the word "Wicked awesome powerful car"
Either way, you were the first and that in my opinion was the biggest draw, but as far as a performance standpoint... I still maintain a good single properly sized turbo will be more efficient and make more power. case in point - Jeremy's car. 300 whp at 7 psi? Yeah...
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
well funny i still 670kms to a tank of gas on the high way... and lets see.. jeremys engine vs mine internaly is just "slightly" different his 7psi is not 7psi on a bone stock engine... as for bottle neck.. funny the numbers and calculations show it isnt ... but i guess they are wrong...
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
Lol... funny you didn't read my post. Really funny.
High way = little to no throttle. I can get great mileage there too. 1000 rpm boost has nothing to do with that. Way to go way out of the box on that.
Yeah his engine is different internally... what's your point? You have higher compression, he has more flow. It almost evens out.... plus I've seen 250 whp on 8 psi out of a T3 hybrid... your #'s aren't any better than a single boost setup.
As for your calculations... glad to see you flowbenched the charger. I'd love to see how you did it since you'd need to spin the charger while flow benching it... did you flow bench your head? Do you really know what CFM's your pushing?
Your calculations have always been something I've questioned since you've never sat down and gotten the physical #'s from your own engine to see what the real deal is...
And I'm sorry for a unit that can no longer push any more efficient air over about 12 psi, I'd love to see how you validate it isn't a bottleneck....
If you had an M60 or M90 this wouldn't even be an issue... but it's an M45. It's the equivalent to a T25 turbo... would you push air through that AFTER you pushed it through a T3/04e 60 trim? I know I wouldn't.
The bottom line is 8 psi is nothing, you haven't even put enough boost through to bottleneck it yet.
But hey - your magical #'s don't lie I guess. 250 whp at 8 psi is truly "remarkable" hosepower and a complete achievement that showcase the true benefits of putting a more efficient boosting setup through a smaller one. You're making MAYBE 14 whp/psi... and that's assuming all your other engine mods added next to nothing... I don't see the gain here. Sure it's more efficient than the GMSC alone, but it's not more efficient than a properly sized turbocharger alone.
I guess those #'s are lying too.
Keep laughing.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
you said it your self.. i havent run enough boost threw it to become a bottle neck... hence me saying over and over that it would be if your going for HUGE hp.. im going for 280whp MAX it will not be a bottle neck for this power level
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
And just to clarify Josh, I'm not trying to be a d!ck here I just have never understood your stubbornness on this subject. You've always cited you and your father ran calculations but never stipulated where the hell the base #'s came from. Unless they are off your engine/charger on a flow-bench they are innacurate.... cfm #'s from Magnuson at max rpm is fine but you have no #'s from the stock LD9 head.
At the end of the day I really don't give a rats ass, I just find it amusing that you state you've proven people wrong when I've seen zero proof of it...
Regardless, I'm glad to see you're finally getting it back on the road, it's a shame how it was taken away from you last year just as you were finally starting to enjoy it. I've just always disagreed with you about this subject, and have never seen any real evidence to change my mind, or even the minds of others who have voiced the same opinion.
Either way, good luck with the car...
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Ok... 280 whp max now... on the stock motor...
Are you planning more hp on the new built motor? if so - what then?
Clarifying it's not a bottleneck at a smaller PSI makes far more sense to me now. The thing is - as Jeremy said - it negates the ENTIRE purpose of twin-charging.... to push a much larger turbo with a smaller means of getting it going efficiently. That 60-1 is not going to enter it's efficiency range at 8-10 psi man?
What's the point? (Other than what Jeremy said - to be the first and be different)
Not trying to be sour grapes here just get an answer to this once and for all.
-Chris-
-Sweetness-
-Turbocharged-
Slowly but surely may some day win this race...
Yeah, I've never figured out why you would even want to run a "fairly large turbo" at such low pressure ratios, since it's not the least bit efficient. Then, adding huge parasitic drag to your motor just so you can spool a "fairly large" and now also inefficient turbo is beyond my comprehension. If you were adding it to a big turbo pushing high boost which wouldn't spool within the useable powerband, that'd be one thing, and all your points of argument would be validated...But, as said, you're not actually getting anything as far as useable benefits from it the way it is. Put the built motor in, crank up the boost, run the wastegate signal from the compressor outlet, and then the "first twin-charged j-body" will truly mean something.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
i know shifted made 240whp and 280wtq on 7psi with his turbo setup
My understanding was always that the supercharger took what ever is ambient air presser, an up's it by X amount. it does flow little CFM, BUT if you have boost on the intake side of things...... wouldn't it just flow that much more........ or if the boost on the pre- compressor side was higher or equal would the bypass valve open?.......
IDN, to each there own i guess. i like it, looks cool. and isn't the point to make power? if he is who cares how its done.
Chris
'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08
several setups i have read about seem to pretty much bypass the SC once the "larger" turbo comes into its efficiency range. They do this mechanically by opening the bypass valve not by vacuum or psi but rather electronicly via modulated solenoid and from what ive gathered is that........ it can be difficult to time this operation to transition smoothly. Entirely possible with little know how but just becomes tricky to make it happen smoothly. I myself have probed the idea of twin charging my M62 ECO but I will openly be honest.... it would be purely novelty and for fun. I just happen to have everything to do it so i thought hell why not play around with it to see what becomes of it. Would be a cool little experiment for the most part and for me no cost to do it.
ASE Master Certified Automotive Technician
Look- the thread is a call-out to anyone else who has it. this discussion of whether or not it's worth it has been worn out on another locked thread... IT'S HIS CAR, NOT YOURS!!! if you think it's stupid, or worthless, or a waste, or whatever, PUT IT ON ANOTHER THREAD, not this one.
thank you
Taetsch Z24 wrote:My understanding was always that the supercharger took what ever is ambient air presser, an up's it by X amount. it does flow little CFM, BUT if you have boost on the intake side of things...... wouldn't it just flow that much more........ or if the boost on the pre- compressor side was higher or equal would the bypass valve open?.......
IDN, to each there own i guess. i like it, looks cool. and isn't the point to make power? if he is who cares how its done.
Chris
exactly but i have only said that 20+ times in other threads but i guess they dont get the idea of a positive displacement unit.. oh well im going to burn off the tires that came on my factory rims then burn off the 5 summers old summer tires ahah (if they let me on the track with them any way) then i will get some actual track times with the new stickier tires and i guess that will be the real test to this set up
The First Twin Charged jbody
blue car (R.I.P) - 240whp @7psi..
silver car - 305whp 315lbs.tq @15psi (91 Octane) or 420whp & 425lbs.TQ @20psi (94 octane+Alcohol Injection)
All dynos run on a Mustang dyno
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