I've been reading up on the idea of bolting an m90 up to an ld9. I think the easiest way would be to make a plate or box to mount it to and run piping like a vortech setup. My questions are: What PSI would the stock grand prix m90 pully give you on an ld9? And in pictures i see on the bottom of the charger it has the almost square hole(i can see the screws) and the the other small round one with a blade that almost looks like a throttle blade, then a big hole past that. what are the round hole and the other hole for? Also these do not need oil lines correct?
Thanks
m90 is a popular thought with the 2.4 crowd Search it and you will find alot of results. Also i think it would around 15 psi no the motor would not survive the stock pully. to much cfm.
Thanks...15 is way more then i want, I was thinkin 10 max probably closer to 8. I did a search before i posted and found lots of info but these are the things that i didnt notice in the 4 pages of results i read through. Now another question I would need a bigger pully than stock to lower psi correct?
Smaller pully increase rpms in the super charger and increase the boost but look out for heak soak. M45 which is the gm kit will give you around 5 add achohal and Port and polished super charger larger throttle body and you may get your 10 psi. M45 is a small S/c for the 2.4 if you want to rebuild the motor and port and polish the head S/C cams and increase the compression to 10:1 and get a better oil pump or do the 2.3 pump swap and you will have a mini monster their. Hptuners will also allow you to tune it past the gm tune with larger ingectors.
I had thought about that but i plan on doing an 086 head swap when i build the motor, along with the other things you mentioned. The reason i was looking into the m90 was because people told me on my 086 post that the m45 didnt push enough air for the head's larger ports.
it realy doesn't but look up that head on a 2.4 bumps the compression to about12.4:1 i think i could be wrong. but it still raises the compression alot. if anything a m62 would be best suited with 3.7inch pully it would be probley putting out what the m45 does. in all honesty build the motor for boost get 9.7:1 forged pistons and the j tuners turbo kit withe intercooler use that with a 10 psi spring and some added tunning and bigger ingector i think that is your cheapest course. and it will put a smile on your face.
Yeah if i did the 086 id have to get different pistons and probably get the heads cc'd. I was looking at the jtuners turbo kit , isnt 2" piping a bit small though i thought i read that 3" is the prefered diameter for a turbo setup on the 2.4? Thats whats holding me back on that.
2 inch is fine you are only looking for 10 psi relative to what you have so it will be about a 110 hp increase 2 inch piping is just fine 2.5 is more for around 400 to 600 horsepower and 3 inch is upwards. @ inch will work just fine for your boost levels and helps in keeping preasure up at low boost.
Syntar wrote:The reason i was looking into the m90 was because people told me on my 086 post that the m45 didnt push enough air for the head's larger ports.
You should tell those people that the port size doesn't make any difference on the displacement of the motor....with four strokes ofthe motor you displace 2.4L of air, 086 head or not, still only 2.4L of air. The M45 will work fine if your only looking for 5-7psi.
Yeah thats what I was thinkin....Im not 100% sure which direction to go. I know 2 things i want an 086 head with bigger cams and low enough compression to boost! Ideally i would love to see close to 300hp...but as long as it throws me back in the seat and can pass a stock mustang gt I'll be content.
I dont think you can fit it under the hood
1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85
Joshua Dearman wrote:Syntar wrote:The reason i was looking into the m90 was because people told me on my 086 post that the m45 didnt push enough air for the head's larger ports.
You should tell those people that the port size doesn't make any difference on the displacement of the motor....with four strokes ofthe motor you displace 2.4L of air, 086 head or not, still only 2.4L of air. The M45 will work fine if your only looking for 5-7psi.
So what you say is that any head will still give the same performance because the engine can only take so much?
The 086 flow WAY more than a 2.4 head FYI. Also, the 2.4 SC guys saw a drop in boost with a P&P. A stock 086 head flow more than a ported 2.4 head. So if you add up everything, No the M45 is not big enough.
It's not just a matther of displacement.
Cause if we take you idea, a Stock Ho with a 086 head should make the same power as another Ho with a 456 head just because the displacement is the same. No way.
Quote:
Occupation: Mechanical Engineer
Wow, just Wow.
For all the other, yes it fit under the hood. The Sc doesn't go where the intake manifold use to be but under it. Relocate the oil filter and you have enough space.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
No, I never said it didn't flow better, I'm just saying the displacement of the motor is the same, the M45 can handle 2.4L of air even if you had no pressure drop accross any part of the motor, change a pully and get water injection, now your back to 5-7.....big wop.
Quote:
Occupation: Golf Club superintendant assitant
- WOW
You really should consider my opinion in thie matter before you try to use a personal jab at me....frankly I HAD more respect for you than that, I wouldn't have exspected you to make such a reply.
Joshua Dearman wrote:No, I never said it didn't flow better, I'm just saying the displacement of the motor is the same, the M45 can handle 2.4L of air even if you had no pressure drop accross any part of the motor, change a pully and get water injection, now your back to 5-7.....big wop.
Quote:
Occupation: Golf Club superintendant assitant
- WOW
You really should consider my opinion in thie matter before you try to use a personal jab at me....frankly I HAD more respect for you than that, I wouldn't have exspected you to make such a reply.
I think what he is getting at is that there is something called volumetric efficiency. If you take a 2.4L engine and put a 1" diameter intake tube one it and 1/2" exhaust:
The displacement will create more vacuum on the intake side and create more back-pressure on teh exhaust side and move significantly less actual air. Although the displacement stays the same, there is much less density to it (gasses compress/decompress.) If your engine was made to pump water and not air, there may be more truth to what you said.
As far as the blower goes, by changing out to the 086 head you are going to make less pressure from the blower because it wont as much resistance. Boost pressure is the measure of the resistance between the valvetrain/combustion chambers and the push of teh supercharger or turbo.
Basically, you will be making more horsepower with less boost. The M90 should be a decent match to the 2.4 with an 086 head or just a ported head. The M45 is very small and is no good with any kind of head work.
Cardomain|
Myspace
Eh... lemme clear up one thing in very simple terms:
2.4L of air at 1,000psi is not the same thing as 2.4L of air at -30in/hg.
What you're reading on your boost gauge is not the same thing as what is going into your cylinders. Head play a HUUUUUUUUGE role in performance.
Telling
Gilles that the 086 head wont do anything is like telling QBE that turbos don't do anything.... we take that stuff offensively.
Quad 4 peeps FTW though!
Cardomain|
Myspace
I'm glad I am not planning on going to Fresno State for my engineering degree. Sounds like they don't teach fluids there.
This post has gone to crap....I'm very sorry to you Syntar, see there are people around here who cant wait for people to be wrong and love to poke personal jabs. Very sad to see.
Minion - I'm the last person you need to explain volumetric efficiency too. I understand exactly what your saying except it doesn't matter for what Syntar is trying to do.
However, back to the reason this post is here, - my point was that he wants to pass a stock mustang GT and only wants 5 psi - the M45 can do that on an 086 and there is much less work needed to get the job done. (less fabrication)
I don't understand why this has become something/someway to prove an engineer is wrong.
FSU is a very good school, we are the first choice recruits for many fortune 100 companies, and I graduated top 10 in my class. None of this means I'm never wrong....if anything this degree proved to me that I have many more short comings than I thought I had before I started.
Personal jabs get everybody nowhere and just aren't needed or appreciated. I'm sorry for being wrong
M I N I O N - Sinbird wrote:Boost pressure is the measure of the resistance between the valvetrain/combustion chambers and the push of teh supercharger or turbo.
Actually, what you're referring to only explains roots blowers, which don't actually compress air but rather push it. Superchargers and turbos actually compress the air, so it's a little different.
M I N I O N - Sinbird wrote:Basically, you will be making more horsepower with less boost.
From what I read in Dearman's posts, this is what he was saying right here:
Joshua Dearman wrote:the M45 can handle 2.4L of air even if you had no pressure drop accross any part of the motor, change a pully and get water injection, now your back to 5-7
AKA, the M45 will flow the air required, but a lower pressure will build in the manifold due to the increased flow theough the ports (lower pressure higher volumetric flow when mass flow held constant...). Then, putting on a pully that would produce something like 10psi on a stock LD9 (the fastest the blower should spin) would produce his needed 5 psi on the higher flowing head...I'm having trouble seeing what everyone's difficulty is with this
Now, if you wanted more power (read: "more air mass"), the M45 would be out of it's efficiency range, which he never denied.
Of course, my ME degree is coming from ASU (the 'party school'), so what do I know...
Brian Whalen wrote:I'm glad I am not planning on going to Fresno State for my engineering degree. Sounds like they don't teach fluids there.
You obviously don't read very many of his posts...
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Haha I noticed most of the posts i read end up in arguments of some sort. Thanks for all the info i think i understand what you all are saying. m45 will be easier but wont move as much air as an m90 due to the bigger ports therefore i would need to run the smaller puly to make up for the difference. It will help some but possibly not enough to be worth the money from what im reading. m45 better then nothing but for $2500 i think i could use somthing else for better results. for instance the turbo that was suggested above...does anyone make a turbo manifold for the 086? Id still love to do the m90 though then id know i had enough mass airflow. Am i correct in thinking an m45 at 5 psi is not going to make as much power as a m90 at 5psi?
Syntar wrote:m45 will be easier but wont move as much air as an m90 due to the bigger ports therefore i would need to run the smaller puly to make up for the difference.
Kind of, it won't move as much air due to the design of the blower, the bigger ports just show less boost being built (although the flow will be the same through the blower with either head), the smaller pulley just ups the boost more.
Syntar wrote:does anyone make a turbo manifold for the 086?
Exploited can, but search the posts regarding their business practices first. You can always make your own like Cookie (?) did.
Syntar wrote:Am i correct in thinking an m45 at 5 psi is not going to make as much power as a m90 at 5psi?
You got it. It's due to the m90 being more efficient at that given volumetric flow. (Same as small turbo vs big turbo idea, although the reasoning is a little different)
Syntar wrote:Haha I noticed most of the posts i read end up in arguments of some sort.
Crap, someone has figured us out lol
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Scrap the 086 head idea unless you are going power crazy the 2.4 head is fine. if you are really going with the 086 get the turbo kit from jtuners. take the turbo mainafold with a 086 exhaust mani to a shop and have them combine them.
Get the gm S\C reflash and hook up with some one that knows how to use hp tuners. With that much in your car swap the oil pump and don't forget forged pistons with a compression ratio 8:1 yeah it's low but it will be a decent comprssion. Mfk-223 Knows what it will be basicly i would be shooting for between 9.5:1 and 10:1 with only 10 psi or less it won't be to hard to run.
Rods are a good invest ment if it is in your budget. Along with balanceing the crank and knife edgeing to make it lighter.
now wat about the m62 charger...u think it will handle better on the 086?....i have a 95 2.3 head...not the 086...but im taking it up for a P&P and all new internals....so it will be pretty close...
you scratch my ride IMA EAT YO CHILDREN
A low output 2.3 is not worth the trouble. it may flow a little better stock but if you are gooing through all the trouble of a 2.3 might as well get and use the good one. 086
Guys, you may also want to consider how prone the 086 casting is to cracking. Turbo motors have MUCHO heat in the combustion chamber, something the 086 heads don't need more of...
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
It's not the heat in the chamber than brake them really. It's the overall engine temperature. Coolant temperature.
I ran lean , and I mean LEAN, with the turbo and the head didn't crack. As long as you keep the coolant temperature under 200 you are fine.
M. Dearman - Just to clarify, I said WOW for your occupation cause I tough a guy with that education should know. Yes the M45 can flow enough for the 2.4 with a 086 head but why? You will already be pushing the limit of the Sc. He better spend that 2500$ for a M90 setup and have room for improvement. But yeah you seem to know what you are talking about.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
