thanks a bunch squirrel... that post helped me a lot



15.574 @ 89 mph stock

DanteMustDie wrote:thanks a bunch squirrel... that post helped me a lot

I couldn't agree more.

.JerseyKid. wrote:

DanteMustDie wrote:thanks a bunch squirrel... that post helped me a lot

I couldn't agree more.

I agree too. I never have any luck explaining my reasoning, so I'm glad you can



fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.

I <3 PJ.

.JerseyKid. wrote:

DanteMustDie wrote:thanks a bunch squirrel... that post helped me a lot

I couldn't agree more.

~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ

TheFlyingSquirrel (PJ) wrote:

Quote:


Good post, this should set some people straight....

Its a shame most of the people in here won't understand what they're looking at. A lot of turbo selection and 'myth' is based on hear-say instead of facts like these graphs...

which is why I'm going to take it upon myself to explain to people a little bit... I hope notec doesn't mind.

Quote:

dragracemyz24
Monday, January 02, 2006 6:45 PM

^^ he is correct. I have burnt up two of them allready. Great turbo for street use and low boost . But anything above 8 or 9 psi , I would upgrade to a t04e 57 trim as stated above.

I dunno how you burnt up 2 turbos... but I'd put my money on bad luck, bad oil supply, or crappy turbo(s), or a crappy rebuild(er).

a t3 super 60 will have the best spool characteristics of any of the above, and make more power HAPPILY up to about 16psi or so if not more. 20 is right around where you hover above peak efficiency and are just heating up air before it gets into your engine. I'll elaborate on the images posted by notec to illustrate my point. Thanks to notec for doing the work for me =)

as notec stated, the dots are as follows:

Red dots = 5psi
Blue = 10psi
Green = 15psi
Orange = 20 psi

the dots at each boost level are in increments of 1000rpm starting at 3000 from left to right.

A compressor map reads like a topographical map, but instead of elevation, it shows efficiency. The middle most island is where the turbo makes peak efficiency, surrounding islands are progressively less efficient. The dashed line all the way to the left is the surge line... if you're over that line at 3000rpm or so.. you shouldn't be using that turbo period. If the dots fall off to the right the turbo is too small. If your dots don't go thru the peak efficiency island, the turbo isn't proprely matched for your boost level.




This image shows a t04e-57 trim turbo on a 2.4.

looking at this map, you can clearly see that this turbo is WAY TOO BIG. The dots at 5psi are barely on the graph at all which means you'd probably see little to no power increase since you won't be spinning the turbo fast enough to generate boost

at 10 psi you're dangerously close to the surge line at 3000rpm, and you're still barely on the graph since this turbo is designed for higher rpm or larger engines.

at 15psi you're over the surge line substantially

at 20psi you're even further into the surge area, a very bad thing. and at this point, the turbo is beyond its peak efficiency.

This turbo would be better suited on a larger engine or one that spun higher RPMs (requiring more cMF (the numbers across the bottom... corrected mass flow... aka how much air ur engine can flow in lbs/ min))



In this picture, we have a t04e-50 trim

Again the same as above takes place... You can clearly see from the oritentation of the dots that this turbo is better suited from a larger displacement, or a higher revving engine. The 2.4 cannot flow enough air in order to use this turbo effieciently. Using this turbo on a cav that doesn't spin higher rpm is stupid and basically a "my cock is bigger than yours" move. You will sacrafice spool, and will not make as much power as a smaller turbo at the same boost level. Case in point:


t3 super 60


as you can see, all the dots are on the graph in relatively good positions. This is what we want to see

as you increase boost, the dots move, but within the area that was mapped on the turbo.

5 psi is a little low for this turbo, but will be ok

10 psi you'll be making about 230whp if not slightly more or less depending on individual set ups.

15psi you'll be making quite a bite more power i'm not sure exactly, probably in the neighborhood of 270 to 280 or so but as you can see the turbo is still happy with a little bit more head room

at 20 you're over the surge line which again, you want to avoid like the plauge. 20psi is too high for this turbo.

keep in mind, this turbo will be FULLY SPOOLED by 3000rpm at the latest.. give or take 200rpm remember more boost takes longer since the turbo has to spin faster in order to generate that boost.

I can't even remember how many discussion/ arguments/ questions have been brought up about the t3 super 60 being a good match or not but frankly, on a street driven, mildly modified or otherwise stock engine the t3 super 60 is THE BEST CHOICE FOR 8-16psi (garrett turbos anyway)

if you want to boost higher, there's other turbos that would be better suited but a good rule of thumb is 10psi is kind of pushing engine internals and drivetrain limits. So keep this in mind when choosing what you want to do.

my buddy's turbo ecotec with a t3 super 60 runs 13.5 @ 105mph on 9psi of boost. which has plenty of room for improvement.. but launching is a bit difficult. The car makes 225whp and 250wtq

Good post, i was about to make one just like it last night but i was too lazy...


- 93 mph in the 1/8 mile
Member of J-Body Of Michigan.

wow thanks guys

thats one of the first times i got props for being a geek haha

hopefully it'll help sway some people to see that bigger isn't always better

but like I said, those larger turbos would be ok if you have the head work to support it, and the RPM to support it

the reason larger turbos usually work better on a lot of smaller engines is because they can spin higher RPMs than we can. Not always, but more RPM usually equates to more flow

so if you had a cav with an uncorked engine and could spin up to 7000 or higher, then the t04 stuffs would be killer, but since a mild to stock engine can't spin past 6500, it really doesn't make sense

And if anyone was wondering, a ball bearing version of the T3 super 60 would be the GT28R and the GT28RS

The R is a little itty bit smaller than the super 60, and the RS aka the Disco potato is a bit larger, and a lot better of a match anywhere from 5 to about 20psi or so. I don't think I've ever seen a closer match than the potato

However, the ballbearing turbos cost a LOT more than typical turbos, so that plays into the budget as well. And they require coolant lines too so thats another prob with the ball bearing turbos

but the advantage with ball bearings is they spin more freely... so you can run more aggressive turbines and still have decent spool while being able to generate more power

thanks PJ for the informative write up. It helped me understand just what I was getting myself into with my super 60

stevefire wrote:thanks PJ for the informative write up. It helped me understand just what I was getting myself into with my super 60

Me too hehe











~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ

Great write up Pj.I was confused as all hell in choosing a turbo.Im glad i went with the super 60 after reading your writeup.thanks.


Peter
'06 Cobalt ss/sc W/G85 Package
Gm Stage II W/2.79" Pulley
K&N Drop In Filter
Custom Magnaflow Dual Exhaust

where is everyone getting there t3 super 60 from and how much are they paying for it....... im tryin to find a decently priced one...... so far ive seen prices range from 300 to 650 for one



http://www.cardomain.com/ride/827643
boost will be soon for me....

Ebay is the cheapest from down2turbo and the second cheapest is from westcoast-turbo.com . Hope this helps ya!

~Boost. Its what's for dinner!~

I got mine from Andre's turbo's for $450. I don't know that I'd recommend it though, the first turbo I got blew up, and it took him over a month to replace it.





4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
Buy stuff from CarCustoms Ebay! Won't be disappointed!

Timothy Pietraallo wrote:Ebay is the cheapest from down2turbo and the second cheapest is from westcoast-turbo.com . Hope this helps ya!

yea i know about those 2....... down2turbo has a few minor bad feedbacks about not shipping and such..... and westcoast-turbo.com I know about but i dont know anyone that has ordered from there so idk if im willing to order from a place like that.... unless someone provides me with some info about them that they are decent place to order from.



http://www.cardomain.com/ride/827643
boost will be soon for me....

Shifted wrote:I got mine from Andre's turbo's for $450. I don't know that I'd recommend it though, the first turbo I got blew up, and it took him over a month to replace it.

Uh oh,I ordered my turbo from him.Ive been waiting for it for like 2 weeks now.Were there any signs that the turbo was bad?I hope mine dont blow up on me.


Peter
'06 Cobalt ss/sc W/G85 Package
Gm Stage II W/2.79" Pulley
K&N Drop In Filter
Custom Magnaflow Dual Exhaust

No, nothing ahead of time that said it was a bad turbo, it physically looked great, no shaft play or anything. Thing started screaming just out of the driveway and then I built boost with it once and that was it.





4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
Buy stuff from CarCustoms Ebay! Won't be disappointed!

Z Speed Cavi wrote:where is everyone getting there t3 super 60 from and how much are they paying for it....... im tryin to find a decently priced one...... so far ive seen prices range from 300 to 650 for one

This is where I was gonna get my turbo from until I decided to buy the Jtuners kit that already has the super 60

http://store.yahoo.com/cheapturbo/gatu.html











~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ

TD05 - 18G



GT35R - 40 Trim




The options are limitless. Lets keep in mind that all these are ass-u-ming that noone revs any higher than 6000rpms... those with forged bottom ends and hefty heads could easily take it up to 7000 or 7500 rpm to grab a bit more from late spooling turbos.

OK I know it's been a month since anyone posted in here, but I'm giving this thread a bump because I ahve another Super 60-related question

I've recently created a spreadsheet keeping track of all the possible parts I'll need for my custom turbo setup, and I'll hopefully begin slowly ordering parts over the course of several months once I feel comfortable with my choices. One critical thing I still need to find is a downpipe flange that will work on a Super 60. I've heard ATP is a killer brand for that kinda stuff, and I'm at their website ATPTurbo.com right now, but am I looking for a Steel or Aluminum flange? I'm shooting for a 3" downpipe, but a 2.5" will do just fine if I can't get a 3". Can someone hook me up with an part number or a link to the one I'm looking for?

Again, a downpipe flange for a Super 60, 3" preferable, 2.5" is OK too.

Thanks all!

There are a number of different flanges for the T3 Super 60, 5 bolt, 3 bolt, externally gated, internally gated, large 3 bolt, small 3 bolt, etc.





4cyltuner.com - Information Source For 4 Cylinder Tuners
Buy stuff from CarCustoms Ebay! Won't be disappointed!

TheFlyingSquirrel (PJ) wrote:


my buddy's turbo ecotec with a t3 super 60 runs 13.5 @ 105mph on 9psi of boost. which has plenty of room for improvement.. but launching is a bit difficult. The car makes 225whp and 250wtq

Ahh, It's cake to launch!


Mmmmm, boost.

Shifted wrote:There are a number of different flanges for the T3 Super 60, 5 bolt, 3 bolt, externally gated, internally gated, large 3 bolt, small 3 bolt, etc.

Ah OK, it's this turbocharger exactly. http://www.turbostore.com/gart3sup.html

That doesn't answer all of those questions except for the internall gated part, and it looks like the triangular 3-bolt from that picture unless I'm mistaken. Maybe someone knows more about this particular unit....