Capacitor?? - Audio & Electronics Forum

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Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:08 AM
Okay, i just hooked up my amp (800Wkenwood) and my 12" MA audio sub, and when i turn it up, the lights dim a bit. I need some information on capacitors? or do i need one, or what could happen if i dont get one!
Lees-ahhh

Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:55 AM
do you need one...no

what could happen if you don't get one....the shop will sell it to the next sucker that walks through the door. and you don't buy something you don't need.

upgrade your stock wiring under the hood...upgrade the battery or buy another maybe.



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Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 11:56 AM
a cap moreless stores "juice" to use so when the amps are pushing. they are taking most of the power from the cap and not the battery. i guess thats the best way to describe it. if you have a loud system then a cap would be good along w/a optima yellow top battery!

heres most of my system and w/a cap.




if im wrong im sure someone will let "us" know!




Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 12:05 PM
your right..a cap stores power.....but only 3 amps for 1 second..after that it's useless. I'd MUCH rather have an extra battery compared to a cap.


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Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 1:38 PM
i have a two faret fosgate digital cap and it stays at 15 volts and it only drops to 14.3 volts when the bass hits and i have a 120a1 punch and a 1500db series fosgate. in my opinion a cap is a good purchase.


Fast isn't always good, looks and sound is sometimes better

Imamarine
Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 2:54 PM
my lights would dim also when the bass hit in my car. i bought a capacitor from a friend and havent had a problem ever since. good purchase in my opinion, but upgrading the 'Big 3' is probably cheaper.




Peace Out!!!
Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:44 PM
If the lights are dimming only momentarilly when the base hits then a cap "may" help. If the lights get lower and lower when you're playing loud music then the cap won't do anything for you.

A lot of people who don't know how a cap works or what it's purpose is will tell you that they're useless. Keep in mind that they're manufactured for other things than car audio. It's just one application that can benefit from their use under the right conditions. They're also one of the most misused products out there. Go to a reputable installer/dealer so they can get a good feel for your system requirements and capabilities.
Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 4:52 PM
you might also want to investigate in a product called a "batcap". it works as a cross between an azzload of caps, and an extra battery. they say some of em go up to like 200 farad, but IMO, its just an extra battery. make sure you upgrade "the big 3" to 4 awg wire, and make sure your car's grounds are done properly. if it still dims, with a good battery, then a cap might help.


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Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:18 PM
i have a capacitor and it helped my system out alot. i got a 1 farad audiobahn capacitor for my 2 12" kicker comps with a rockford fosgate p3001 amp and it cleared my bass alot and i think it helped my system out alot




Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:22 PM
wow


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Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:32 PM
what do u mean wow?





Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 5:34 PM
I'm gonna leave this one alone... see how much mis-information can arise from it.


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Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:05 PM
wysiwyg wrote:I'm gonna leave this one alone... see how much mis-information can arise from it.
It's well known that you have an aversion to capacitors. Do you have some sort of electrical background (other than car stereo) that has led you to believe that capacitors are worthless. You seem to think that capacitors are manufactured solely for the purpose of being sold to idiots who know nothing about electricity and just want them installed to look good and think they'll perform some magic upgrade to their system. I'll assure you that there are quite a few people here that have more than a rudimentary knowlege of electricity and know that capacitors have many functions including storing a charge for use when the demand exceeds the supply. Car audio is one application that can benefit from the use of capacitors when used properly. In a perfect world all electrical distribution systems would be stiff enough to handle any current demand that we could throw at it. As we live in a real world this is not the case. When a heavy current demand is placed on a system there is a corresponding voltage drop on the wiring supplying the load causing power loss in the form of heat (I^2R) A capacitor close to the load will make up for this loss.

Here's another extreme example. Where I work we routinely short the DC+ to the DC common of some very large rectifiers as part of our process. This typically causes between 100,000 to 150,000 amps to be drawn with spikes around 250,000amps. Our distribution system will not supply 250,000 amps without a severe voltage drop. We have banks and banks of capacitors to make up for these spikes. We could run without the banks, but our regulation would suffer greatly causing quality issues. We could upgrade our distribution system and get rid of the capacitors but the cost would be prohibitive and we wouldn't get any more real benefit than we do with the capacitor banks This is not a far cry from the same issues facing car audio distribution and amplifiers. You can upgrade the battery and wiring and it would help, but a capacitor will give the same benefit in some situations.

I don't think or act act like I know everything. I don't treat other who disagre as idiots. I'd appreciate it if you'd give others the benefit of the doubt without being so condescending. This forum is for people to get help or help others, not to make yourself feel great by belittling people.
Re: Capacitor??
Tuesday, April 05, 2005 9:54 PM
it's simple. caps in a car audio system (1-2farads as people commonly run) do not raise the voltage...they do not keep the voltage from dropping (tests have shown voltage has actually been LOWER while using a cap) they do not make it sound better...the don't give you any more available reserve capacity like a battery would (3 amp of power i wouldn't consider a reserve, lmao) that does nothing for your electrical system.

They don't stabalize anything but the profit margin of the vendor.

Please show me a competitor who wins by using caps...
here's a "high power" application for ya...no caps though, ]


all i see is 70 batteries


and yea, that's 12 JBL/Crown A6000GTi's


here it is at world finals...but, but, but 72,000 watts with no caps...NO WAY!! must not have heard of caps over here yet!!



like i said..i'm leaving this one alone. wouldn't want to "belittle" you by replying to any more of your post's.


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Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:56 AM
I guess you didn't read both my posts in their entirety or you just resort to making absurd comparisons to make a point that you really don't understand anyway. How do you know that the van doesn't have problems with the lights dimming???

You haven't belittled me (probably because you don't have enough knowlege of the subject yourself and have to go to other boards to find information to back up your claim). Talk about spinning a subject to try and make an invalid point

Your 3 second reserve claim may be true, but if the high demand lasts less than 3 seconds then the cap will make up for the excess demand.

Since you don't understand electrical distribution systems, I'll try giving a hydraulic example of a capacitor. Ever heard of an accumulator? It basically does the same thing in a hydraulic system as a capacitor does in an electrical system. It makes up for demand when the pumps cannot supply enough flow. I guess wysiwyg would just add more pumps and piping.
Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:53 AM
Oh man... I'm so lost on this topic now, Umm... everyone is saying something different... but honestly, where would i PUT a second battery? Ugh i really don't know enough about this... i need an advisor for my car audio
Lees-ahhh
Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:59 AM
I think a cap is a fine addition, if nothing else than it helps appearances by making your lights and other electronics not dim when you're thumpin. It makes a noticable difference in my friend's truck, and in several cars i've installed them in. The bass seems a little more...energetic for lack of a better word.


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Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 11:17 AM
a cap will work when used in the application it was designed for. sq. not spl wich is what everyone thinks they are really for.


in an spl application i'd have no need for caps. i'd burp the system. then cut volume to it letting my system rebuild itself, then burp the system again.


in a sq application is where caps came to be used at first. they were used so during sq testing the relative peaks of a kickdrum would have the same impact on the second hit as they did on the first.


the first thing i would do is make sure the big 3 are upgraded to the proper size and and proper installation. secondly i'd upgrade my battery to a form of gell cell batery. and then if your lights are still dimming i'd look into testing your system voltage to make sure everything is running fine and your not overpowering anything, and then i might consider a cap. i dont consider them worthless, i just dont consider them the first fix.the cap in itself isnt worthless. but what is is used for most of the time is.


in your example labotomy its pretty good, the only real diffrence in your situation versus the car is in your application, the cost benifit of upgrading the system (major money)versus the banks of capacitors(not as much money), in the car its barely much more money for a good gell cell as it is to buy a farad or two of capacitance.


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Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 2:10 PM
Labotomi wrote:
How do you know that the van doesn't have problems with the lights dimming???


I know the guys that built it personaly....I was at spring break nationals this year and watched it compete...

PLEASE....i'm begging you, show me a real-world IN CAR test that show caps help your system. It's just basic electronics right? some results shouldn't be THAT hard to come up with.




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Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:29 PM
why should I have to prove anything to you. You've not provided anything other than you know someone who competes without caps in spl competitions. I never said that caps should be in every system, but that they can help in some.

Do you have any knowlege of basic electricity? Do you know anything other than what you've picked up from car audio websites and auto forums.

If you'd try and make an argument for your case then I'd listen. If you could prove me wrong, I wouldn't have any problems with it, but you're going to have to give more technical reasons than "my friend doesn't use them and he competes nationally". Like I said, they're not for all systems.

I've put caps in systems before and they've seen improvement in the dimming issue. I'm not going to do it again just to prove a point. I'm not that into car stereos anymore. Actually, I have two 12" JLs, two 10"JLs, two PG ZPA 0.3 amps, a PG ZX-450 amp, a MTX 1500d amp, a Clarion deck (not sure the model), Clarion DSP, numerous line drivers, an Epicenter and anESP-2(?) just sitting in my garage not being used. Maybe I need to put them on Ebay as I've no desire to get back into the car audio thing again.

BTW this symbol >> << Means that I wasn't being serious with the statement about the lights dimming in the van.
Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 7:41 PM
ok...here ya go...a test that shows caps actually LOWER the voltage.

http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/Captest.pdf

(and i don't need to write a book about electricty with my reply in order to know what i'm talking about) i've been in car audio for long time as well as worked for delphi automotive as an independant systems test engineer(that's electronics buddy!)...so I'm well aware of what works and what doesnt IN A CAR..not some factory...

I'm done...you know where i stand on the subject. enjoy.




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Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 8:16 PM
From the rec.car.audio newsgroup faq (part 1 of 5)

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/car-audio/part1/


2.9 What is a "stiffening capacitor", and how does it work? [JSC]
=======================================================================

"Stiffening Capacitor" (note capitals) is a trademark of Autosound
2000. However, "stiffening capacitor" (note lowercase), as a generic
term, refers to a large capacitor (several thousand microfarads or
greater) placed in parallel with an amplifier. The purpose of doing so
is to provide a sort of reserve power source from which the amplifier
can rapidly draw power when it needs it (such as during a deep bass
note). The electrical theory is that when the amplifier attempts to
draw a large amount of current, not only will the battery be relatively
slow to respond, but the voltage at the amplifier will be a little lower
than the voltage at the battery itself (this is called "line drop"). A
capacitor at the amplifier which is charged to the battery voltage will
try to stabilize the voltage level at the amplifier, dumping current
into the amplifier. Another way to think about it is that a capacitor
in parallel with a load acts as a low pass filter (see Section 3.10),
and the voltage level dropping at the amplifier will appear as an AC
waveform superimposed upon a DC "wave". The capacitor, then, will try
to filter out this AC wave, leaving the pure DC which the amplifier
requires.

The following sections provide more detail about when and why to use a
stiffening capacitor.


2.9.1 Do I need a capacitor? [MZ]
-----------------------------------

Before installation, it's often difficult to predict whether or not a
capacitor will be beneficial to you. It's generally best to install
the audio equipment prior to making the determination, so that you can
address which symptoms need to be remedied and assess the severity of
the symptoms. This will not only help you decide whether or not you
need a capacitor, but also how much capacitance would be beneficial.

The most common symptom in need of added capacitance is headlight
dimming (and sometimes dimming of the interior/dash lights). It's
caused by a drop in system voltage associated with excessive current
draw. While there may indeed be several loads drawing substantial
amounts of current from the electrical system (eg. heat, AC, and so
forth), it's usually the transient draws that best manifest themselves
in noticeable dimming. This is partly because our visual systems are
most sensitive to detecting rapidly changing intensity levels rather
than steady absolute differences.

Once you've assessed whether or not the dimming is noticeable (and
sufficiently annoying), you must decide whether a capacitor is
warranted or if you'd be better served by upgrading the alternator.
After initially having your alternator and battery checked out (some
places will do this for free), the choice should be based on the
severity of the dimming.

A commonly-used estimate for determining the appropriate size capacitor
is 1F/kW (one farad per kilowatt). For example, a system running at
300W would need a 0.3F (or 300,000uF) capacitor. However, there are
several variables at play here, including the capabilities of the
vehicle's electrical system (which generally varies from idle to higher
RPMs), the efficiency of the amplifiers, and the listening habits of
the user (ie. the tone controls and the type of music). These factors
should all be considered when making the determination. Moreover, the
voltage drop can be so severe that added capacitance is nothing more
than a band-aid. That is, even several Farads of capacitance would not
be able to sustain the voltage for as long as the drop persists. This
is when an alternator upgrade may be in order.


2.9.2 Can I just upgrade my headlight wiring instead? [MZ]
------------------------------------------------------------

Although headlight wiring upgrades can often be beneficial for
achieving a higher steady-state illumination, it will not improve the
dimming situation. Since the headlights are not the cause of the
voltage fluctuations that are producing the dimming, upgrading the
wiring will not fix the problem. The voltage fluctuation is present at
the battery terminals, so it will be transmitted to the headlights
regardless of how the headlights are wired. If you think of the
fluctuation as an AC signal, then it becomes readily apparent that this
circuit can be represented by an AC signal in a voltage divider.
Decreasing the resistance in series with the load by upgrading the
headlight wiring actually serves to slightly enhance the AC signal at
the headlight's terminals. In other words, the dimming effect could
become even worse by upgrading the headlight wiring!


2.9.3 Will the dimming go away if I upgrade the amplifier power/ground
wiring? [MZ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

A common myth in the car audio community is that upgrading the power or
ground wire to the amplifier will result in the amplifier drawing less
current and therefore decreasing the voltage fluctuation. While the
logic is sound, the premise is not. Most amplifiers on the market have
semi-regulated supplies which don't maintain a steady power output at a
range of supply voltages. This is reflected in the power ratings
provided by many manufacturers; some provide ratings for their
amplifiers at two different voltages, and the lower voltage almost
always causes the amp to deliver less power. In general, the
difference in power output tends to correspond well with the supply
voltage such that the current draw remains roughly constant (assuming
somewhat similar efficiency). Consequently, upgrading the power/ground
wiring, which serves to increase the voltage at the amplifier's
terminals, will not reduce headlight dimming.


2.9.4 What do I look for when buying a capacitor? [MZ]
--------------------------------------------------------

The single most important attribute is the capacitance value (expressed
in Farads). Put simply, more is better. Another important
consideration is to make sure the maximum voltage rating of the
capacitor safely exceeds the operating voltage of your vehicle's
electrical system. In addition, ESR and ESL values may be provided
with some capacitors to essentially indicate the amount of voltage drop
that occurs when a capacitor is delivering current. Smaller values are
better in this regard.


2.9.5 How do I install a capacitor? [MZ]
------------------------------------------

If you conclude that your best course of action is to install a
capacitor, it should be installed in parallel with the amplifier and,
generally speaking, should be wired with approximately the same gauge
wire used for a single amplifier (usually 8 ga. is sufficient even for
rather large capacitors).

Before permanently installing it, it must be charged. Failure to do so
could lead to blown fuses and lots of sparks! Some capacitors come
with charging resistors. If yours does not, you can simply buy an
automotive bulb and wire it in series with the capacitor's + lead while
the capacitor is grounded. The bulb will continue to dim until the
capacitor is fully charged. Once the capacitor is charged, it should
be treated as you would a car battery; caution must be used to be sure
not to short the terminals.

The final step is to permanently install it into the car. There's been
much debate about where to install the capacitor. It's been argued
that the placement is important because it requires shorter wire
lengths. While this is true, there has never been any evidence
supporting the notion that it should be installed as close
(electrically) to the amplifier as possible. In fact, electrical
theory demonstrates that it's more effective at quenching the dimming
effects by installing it as close to the device exhibiting the symptom
(ie. the headlights) rather than the device that's drawing the bulk of
the current (ie. the amplifiers). However, the benefit to doing so is
negligible. Therefore, hooking it directly to the battery, the
amplifier terminals, or the distribution block are equally valid
solutions as long as the mounting location is safe, the wire lengths
are reasonably short, and there's an adequate ground present.


2.9.6 I have more than one amp in my audio system. Which one should
I have the capacitor run? [MZ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------

The amplifiers are all connected in one way or another to the battery.
In fact, unless you're running separate power wires to each amplifier
all the way from the battery, they're usually connected at a more
proximal site (a distribution block, for example). The effects of the
capacitor are felt by the entire electrical system, including the
amplifiers. Therefore, you cannot selectively dedicate a capacitor to
a specific amplifier.


2.9.7 Will my bass response improve by adding a capacitor? [MZ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------

A capacitor serves to smooth the voltage fluctuations associated with
transient current draw. As a result, the supply voltage presented to
the amp during peak demands tends to be slightly higher than without
the capacitor. For most amplifiers, this will increase the power
output of the amplifier during transients. The degree to which it
increases, however, typically leads to an inaudible improvement.

To illustrate, if you consider an amplifier that delivers 100 watts at
14v and 80 watts at 12v (these numbers are somewhat typical), the
difference in output from the speaker will be at best 1 dB when the
supply voltage fluctuates from 14v to 12v. However, when you take into
account the fact that no practical amount of capacitance can completely
eliminate this voltage drop during transients, the difference in output
becomes even less pronounced. Further, if you take into account other
factors such as loudspeaker power compression (discussed elsewhere in
the FAQ), the equivalent series impedance of the capacitor, the length
of the transient, and the human's decreased ability to perceive
differences in intensity for shorter intervals, this difference in
output becomes negligible.
Re: Capacitor??
Wednesday, April 06, 2005 8:23 PM
wysiwyg wrote:
I'm done...you know where i stand on the subject. enjoy.



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Re: Capacitor??
Thursday, April 07, 2005 11:22 AM
Oh boy, this one has gotten out of hand....

Consider this...the battery, which is supplying the power to the system, has a finite internal resistance. A standard car battery is a lead-acid type, meaning that the power is formed by a chemical reaction of the acid on the lead plates. The batteries in the van shown above, do not look like typical automotive grade lead-acid batteries, they look more like SLA's (sealed lead-acid batteries) which have a verifiably lower internal resistance.

A capacitor, on the other hand, is composed of an entirely different substance. In many cases, it's a soaked paper designed to smooth out the flow of current through a circuit. A stiffening capacitor in a car audio system isn't there to lower the voltage, just to smooth it out a bit.

Consider this as well: in the test that you show, with the capacitor inline the voltage is lower. This is because the capacitor smooths out the valleys in the power delivery system and levels out the peaks. Look at a DC power supply with the filter capacitors connected and disconnected. You'll see that even a fairly well regulated DC supply will have a more noticable ripple without the caps in it. In this case, the capacitor is doing it's job.

In a car audio system, the cap is in line to do basically the same thing. Because the cap has a lower internal resistance than the battery, it is capable of responding faster to the electrical demands that the audio system places on the electrical system in the car. The cap doesn't increase the voltage or increase anything other than the transient response of the electrical system (much as the filter caps do in a power supply). It's capable of a high amount of current for a very short period of time, giving the battery time to respond and provide the current the amps need. After the battery begins to deliver power at the rate the amps require, the cap recharges so that it's ready for the next transient.

This is the reason that caps are used in SQ cars, not in SPL cars. The cap can't provide the current required to make the system respond with any more SPL, but it can provide the instantaneous current required by an SQ car so that it can properly respond to all the musical transients in the system.

So, the main question now is this: Leesa, do you plan on listening to music for the quality or the volume? If it's the volume, and all you want is more, than a cap most likely isn't the thing for you. It will help to tame the dimming light issues, but it won't fix it entirely. If you want sheer volume, than don't even consider a cap until you upgrade your power delivery system. If what you're looking for is sharper transients and higher sound quality, than a cap is for you. As mentioned before, it will help to tame the dimming light issues, and it will also help the system respond faster. Either way, I'd consider upgrading to larger cables, better connectors (on the cables), higher quality battery (the Optima batteries recommended earlier are an excellent choice), and consider a larger alternator (as a last resort).

Should you need to upgrade your alternator, I'd use the following procedure: first, find out what you started with (usually 65-85 amp). Second, add together the fuse ratings of your amps (this isn't an accurate measurement of what your system needs, but it helps you to make sure you have enough reserve power to meet the demands you might place on it). Next, add those numbers together and see what you get. It's also sometimes wise to add a little extra for "headroom," to make sure you don't keep having issues or replacing things. You'll save $$ when upgrading alternators if you can find something off the shelf in an auto parts store versus going to Stinger or someone else, since they have put a lot of engineering into theirs and it shows in the prices. I don't want to take the wind out of their marketing sales, so I will say that the higher-end alternators are very high-quality ones, but they're not needed for the average person with just a modest system (as most are). They're better for upper-tier competitors.

GM has, IMHO, the best alternators available for their passenger cars, and in most cases, you won't need to go that far. If in doubt, or if I've swamped you completely, check with a good car audio shop...they're out there. Try to find one that won't expect you to keep spending and spending to try to "fix" the problem, since many of them won't start at the beginning and work through it completely. It also doesn't hurt to get opinions from most of your local shops and see what people here think of what you've been told.

I, too, am not trying to show anyone up, but simply add to the cloudiness of the subject

I've been working with electronics for over 25 years and have been installing for right at 19, so I've seen a lot. (Don't ask my age, you wouldn't believe it anyway...I started out at a very young age) I replaced 7 custom-built 150 amp large-case Ford alternators (and two high-current regulators) in my Ford car before putting a 200 amp GM small-case in it...no problems since then. This just proves that Ford can't engineer electrical systems. I don't know it all, nor do I try to, but I do make it a habit to make sure I'm informed before passing along information. I'll probably get zinged something fierce on this, but I couldn't resist pitching in my $0.02...this is one of the most controversial subjects in car audio.

Good luck!


Re: Capacitor??
Friday, April 08, 2005 5:54 AM
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