Hi people!!! I'm new to j-body! And this is my first post! Horray for me!! I've had my 03 Cav since feb of 05 and I've adored this site and all it's members for the pass 4 years now, which made me register last week. I salute every member with it's knowledge, honest critisizm, and devotion to customization. Ok, pass the retarded greeting, let's see if y'all can help me a bit.
I have four Rockford Fostgate power series 5.25 component speakers for the front, four Rockford Fostgate power series 6x9 two way speakers along with two Rockford Fostgate power series 15 inch stage 1 subs. The components and 6x9s are at bout 100w rms a piece and the subs are at 600w rms a piece if I'm not mistaken.
I have three Power Acoustik BAMF amps. I know bad choice, but two of them are 1600/4 which is bout 800/4 rms and the other is 5500/1 D class with 2200 rms@ 2ohm I think. Don't have the books with me at this time but Im sure it's overrated.
Now my question is can I avoid the high price of an high output alternator for my 03 cavalier by getting either an Rockford Fostgate 10 farad compacitor or Power Acoustik 20 farad cap (pobably Rockford) along with doing the big 3? I do play my music loud and hard sometimes, of course.
Now the more Im thinking about it, the more I'm swinging over to a cap cause $500-$600 is too much for an h.o. alternator and installation. I'll have to wait till the price go down. So I guesse my new questions are...
-would a Rockford Fostgate 10 farad cap be a better choice than a Power Acoustik 20 farad cap?
-would 10-20 farad be good help for this system and stress of my alternator?
-who is Mike Jones?
From my understanding, a cap is something like a battery that releases power faster, but when it drains the alternator will be working harder to refill cap and power the amps plus they will blow if used unproperly. I may be wrong, so feel free to educate me.
I'm a bit of a newb.
No on the cap. The cap only helps in an SQ situation where there are transient bass hits. It wouldnt help if your voltage is dropping to 12v with the car on.
If you have a 2.2L engine I suggest the GM large case alt swap. Just search it. theres a write up. Its a larger and stronger alt that will hold you over pretty well. I got mine for $65 through a wrecking yard.
And Mike Jones is well Mike Jones.
Yeah, I've read that one before. I've just read it again to make sure I didn't miss anything. I have a ecotec engine and there alternators are not the same as the ones on the 2002 and back. Plus the price on the h.o. Alt dramaticly jumps from the two engine sizes. I'll try and do a quick google search for an alt swap for ecotec, but with my sh*tty luck I won't find nothing but some interesting porn and get side tracked! I'll post some pics of the terrible work that I did. If you have any other info I would greatly apreciate it.
I dont think theres any alt swaps for Ecos. I would vote to just save your money for the HO since a cap wont help anything and will just be a waste of money.
just by getting more power storage will not help your voltage drop issues. you would need to get an HO alt, large case is much better than the smal case that comes with the car. so keep that in mind when trying to find one for your car.
you could have all the power storage in the world, but if the alt cant keep up with the draw, then it still doesnt fix your problem and will put even more strain on the alt. just because now the alt has to charge the batts/cap and power the system. just not a good situation.
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Anton Miller (PPC) wrote:just by getting more power storage will not help your voltage drop issues. you would need to get an HO alt, large case is much better than the smal case that comes with the car. so keep that in mind when trying to find one for your car.
you could have all the power storage in the world, but if the alt cant keep up with the draw, then it still doesnt fix your problem and will put even more strain on the alt. just because now the alt has to charge the batts/cap and power the system. just not a good situation.
more battery storage absolutely helps reduce voltage drop.
period. HO alternators and good batteries are BOTH important.
if your alt can't keep up with the draw, your batteries will be what keeps your equipment from seeing 9V and going up in smoke.
the size/quality of your battery storage will control just how far that voltage is allowed to drop when your alt hits it's limit.
OP - don't waste a penny on a cap. that money is far better spent going towards a HO alt and upgraded battery/wiring etc.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote: if you think you're that much better than them because you're "correct" I hope your progeny don't turn out as screwed up as yourself.
TheSundownFire (GME Chat) wrote:I dont think theres any alt swaps for Ecos. I would vote to just save your money for the HO since a cap wont help anything and will just be a waste of money.
wrong, a cap will help from your alternator being overworked with a stereo... granted a large case swap would be ideal, a cap is a very good start and excellent long term investment
Shaggy wrote:TheSundownFire (GME Chat) wrote:I dont think theres any alt swaps for Ecos. I would vote to just save your money for the HO since a cap wont help anything and will just be a waste of money.
wrong, a cap will help from your alternator being overworked with a stereo... granted a large case swap would be ideal, a cap is a very good start and excellent long term investment
No youre wrong. A cap discharges quickly. Itll help youre system maintain voltage for about a second and wont do @!#$ on a held bass note.
So once the cap discharges it puts more strain on your alt to refill the cap and it will only charge to the voltage the system is at. So if your voltage is at 14v the cap is at 14v if your voltage is 10v the cap is 10v and your battery is still dead.
Thank you. Move along.
Unholysavage wrote:Anton Miller (PPC) wrote:just by getting more power storage will not help your voltage drop issues. you would need to get an HO alt, large case is much better than the smal case that comes with the car. so keep that in mind when trying to find one for your car.
you could have all the power storage in the world, but if the alt cant keep up with the draw, then it still doesnt fix your problem and will put even more strain on the alt. just because now the alt has to charge the batts/cap and power the system. just not a good situation.
more battery storage absolutely helps reduce voltage drop.
period. HO alternators and good batteries are BOTH important.
if your alt can't keep up with the draw, your batteries will be what keeps your equipment from seeing 9V and going up in smoke.
the size/quality of your battery storage will control just how far that voltage is allowed to drop when your alt hits it's limit.
OP - don't waste a penny on a cap. that money is far better spent going towards a HO alt and upgraded battery/wiring etc.
like sundown said. it will help untill they are dead, then what? do you really wanna put them on a charger every night? alternators are NOT for charging batteries, they are to keep them charged, not to charge them. (i hope i worded that correctly) so in turn, if you have too many batteries, and not enough input source form your charging system. you will end up charging the batteries with your alt, causing more strain and a lesser life on the alternator. i would go in this order, ho alt then batteries. i would preffer at the same time. but i know how a budget build goes.
and caps are for extreme peaks and valleys in the sound wave. only supposed to help for those really energy demanding notes or power draws for a few seconds. not to constantly provide power. batteries is a better idea.
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Ok. this is what I was kinda thinking from the start. The power has to come from somewhere? I thought I could cheat by getting a cap with 10 plus farad so it would give it time to restore, but soon it would run empty and the alternator would be working even harder to fill the void in the cap and get power to the amps. Well Ive came across
this. Hope i did this right. im not that good with computers. I already have a Optima red top in and I have 0/1 gauge wire and a inline 300a circuit breaker for the big 3. I'll buy the alt. tomorrow. Here are some pics. Im not as talented as yall so bare with me and hide your children.....
ummm... I dont know how to put pics up! Im slow and ashamed......
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securedownload[1] (3)
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Nope! that didnt work....
F+ck my life.....
Anton Miller (PPC) wrote:Unholysavage wrote:Anton Miller (PPC) wrote:just by getting more power storage will not help your voltage drop issues. you would need to get an HO alt, large case is much better than the smal case that comes with the car. so keep that in mind when trying to find one for your car.
you could have all the power storage in the world, but if the alt cant keep up with the draw, then it still doesnt fix your problem and will put even more strain on the alt. just because now the alt has to charge the batts/cap and power the system. just not a good situation.
more battery storage absolutely helps reduce voltage drop.
period. HO alternators and good batteries are BOTH important.
if your alt can't keep up with the draw, your batteries will be what keeps your equipment from seeing 9V and going up in smoke.
the size/quality of your battery storage will control just how far that voltage is allowed to drop when your alt hits it's limit.
OP - don't waste a penny on a cap. that money is far better spent going towards a HO alt and upgraded battery/wiring etc.
like sundown said. it will help untill they are dead, then what? do you really wanna put them on a charger every night? alternators are NOT for charging batteries, they are to keep them charged, not to charge them. (i hope i worded that correctly) so in turn, if you have too many batteries, and not enough input source form your charging system. you will end up charging the batteries with your alt, causing more strain and a lesser life on the alternator. i would go in this order, ho alt then batteries. i would preffer at the same time. but i know how a budget build goes.
and caps are for extreme peaks and valleys in the sound wave. only supposed to help for those really energy demanding notes or power draws for a few seconds. not to constantly provide power. batteries is a better idea.
run them down until they're dead?? I fail to see the relevance. if you're driving down the road and your lights are dimming to nothing, or your vehicle starts to die, even people with 1/10th of a brain would turn their systems down. although chances are excellent that their amps would already be up in smoke....
I'm disagreeing with your comment that batteries don't help with voltage drop, which is absolutely 100% wrong. pull 250A of current through a new stock J-body electrical (car running), then swap the factory battery with something good (like a new stinger 1750, 2150, NSB 90), repeat the test, and try to tell me that your voltage drop is the same.
if voltage drop didn't change with battery storage, absolutely nobody would be buying multicells, or expensive grp31s to keep their gear properly fed. and don't tell me that db draggers are the only ones who do this LOL.
as for charging batteries, you don't need a charger - buy a good HO alt, not a cheapo. get something quality so that is built to take replenishing your battery/ies when pulling more current than the alt can output.
I'm saying something from DC, Iraggi, etc, not a re-wound factory alternator twisted to put out 200A+. a good friend of mine put his rewound big-cased chevy alt through his hood of his cavalier from heat-seizing the bearings, which snapped off the mounts. too many brushes, not nearly enough heat dissipation. don't cheap out - good HO alts are expensive for more reasons than simply upgraded internals.
if you're running a big battery bank, it's time to think about running multiple GOOD alternators to keep up and be reliable. for the baby systems that 99% of the people in this forum have, running multiple HO alts is pointless. get one good HO alt, and spend the rest of your money on good batteries and proper wiring.
for 2000w RMS, I too would go with a good HO alt to start. but I wouldn't pretend for a second that a battery upgrade (or an extra 1-2 batts in the trunk) is unnecessary.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote: if you think you're that much better than them because you're "correct" I hope your progeny don't turn out as screwed up as yourself.
when the car is on, the electrial power is being fed from the alternator, if the alternator can't keep up with the draw then it starts pulling from the batteries, when this happens your just draining the battery because the alt can't keep up. adding more batteries will keep you from having a car that won't start, but your not fixing the problem your just giving the car longer before it dies.
image a guy with a nife cut, adding bandage (battery) after bandage after bandage will make it seem like things are okay, but doesnt it make more sence to actually fix the problem and sew the guy up? if your alt can't keep up the upgrade the alt.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sndsgood/ https://www.facebook.com/#!/Square1Photography
TheSundownFire (GME Chat) wrote:What Jason said.
X2
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sndsgood wrote:when the car is on, the electrial power is being fed from the alternator, if the alternator can't keep up with the draw then it starts pulling from the batteries, when this happens your just draining the battery because the alt can't keep up. adding more batteries will keep you from having a car that won't start, but your not fixing the problem your just giving the car longer before it dies.
image a guy with a nife cut, adding bandage (battery) after bandage after bandage will make it seem like things are okay, but doesnt it make more sence to actually fix the problem and sew the guy up? if your alt can't keep up the upgrade the alt.
sure, fits right in with what I was saying. although adding multiple bandages and pressure to a cut can completely stop bleeding, so not quite the same as what we're talking about LOL
of course you'll be draining the battery if you pull enough current for long enough, but the more battery storage you have, the longer your voltage will stay above the point of letting out magic smoke. batteries alone won't fix the problem (but are far more effective than a cap), but they do provide extra insurance for cases when music peaks overwhelm your alt; batteries and HO alts are both needed if you want your equipment to survive. the quality of that alt makes a huge difference as well.
I have never once said that a battery should be used in place of a HO alt. I've always crusaded that both are required for 2kw or more. my argument was against Anton's claim that battery storage does nothing when it comes to voltage while playing music. I have enough years behind me to know that isn't the case.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote: if you think you're that much better than them because you're "correct" I hope your progeny don't turn out as screwed up as yourself.
Unholysavage wrote:sndsgood wrote:when the car is on, the electrial power is being fed from the alternator, if the alternator can't keep up with the draw then it starts pulling from the batteries, when this happens your just draining the battery because the alt can't keep up. adding more batteries will keep you from having a car that won't start, but your not fixing the problem your just giving the car longer before it dies.
image a guy with a knife cut, adding bandage (battery) after bandage after bandage will make it seem like things are okay, but doesnt it make more sence to actually fix the problem and sew the guy up? if your alt can't keep up the upgrade the alt.
sure, fits right in with what I was saying. although adding multiple bandages and pressure to a cut can completely stop bleeding, so not quite the same as what we're talking about LOL
of course you'll be draining the battery if you pull enough current for long enough, but the more battery storage you have, the longer your voltage will stay above the point of letting out magic smoke. batteries alone won't fix the problem (but are far more effective than a cap), but they do provide extra insurance for cases when music peaks overwhelm your alt; batteries and HO alts are both needed if you want your equipment to survive. the quality of that alt makes a huge difference as well.
I have never once said that a battery should be used in place of a HO alt. I've always crusaded that both are required for 2kw or more. my argument was against Anton's claim that battery storage does nothing when it comes to voltage while playing music. I have enough years behind me to know that isn't the case.
yea, i was saying that too much battery storage is a bad thing, a 10 farad cap is fairly large seeing as the average cap used by audio dummies is around a 1 farad and 2 farad. basically trying to talk the guy out of overdoing the battery situation and going with an ho alt instead. you can always get a good yellow top for under the hood. the alt is more important than just the "band-aid" adding more power storage does. all in all, we were talking about the same thing just talking about it differently. my point was that alternators are to supply the energy needed, the batteries are there for the sudden need of energy (such as starting a car) you need both for a good electrical. i think you just took my post the wrong way.
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Lucky G. Luxx wrote:Ok. this is what I was kinda thinking from the start. The power has to come from somewhere? I thought I could cheat by getting a cap with 10 plus farad so it would give it time to restore, but soon it would run empty and the alternator would be working even harder to fill the void in the cap and get power to the amps. Well Ive came across this. Hope i did this right. im not that good with computers. I already have a Optima red top in and I have 0/1 gauge wire and a inline 300a circuit breaker for the big 3. I'll buy the alt. tomorrow. Here are some pics. Im not as talented as yall so bare with me and hide your children.....
ummm... I dont know how to put pics up! Im slow and ashamed......
look into DC power alternators, if you willing to spend 400+ get the best.
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Anton Miller (PPC) wrote:
yea, i was saying that too much battery storage is a bad thing
ummm I think the point here is that you are STILL wrong after your explanation of your previous wrongness. No, more storage is not a bad thing. How is having a bigger gas tank a bad thing when I only have enough money to fill half of it? If I ever want to go on a long trip, and get the money for the gas, I can without any further mods or stopping for gas more often..... Get the analogy? More storage isn't a bad thing just because you don't YET have the means to fill it all quickly.
On the other hand....you have other fingers.
In my family we teach that boys have a God-stick and girls have a Shame Cave. -John Stewart
Extra batteries are bad if you dont have the electrical to charge them. Itll help with the voltage issue but itll also lead to premature death of your stock alternator.
Personally I think extra batteries come second after a stronger alt.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, March 08, 2010 7:13 PM
TheSundownFire (GME Chat) wrote:
Personally I think extra batteries come first before extra batteries.
LOL wat?
guessing you meant HO alt before batteries? that's the normal way to do it IMO, although I'll never go without an upgraded battery on 2kw, more if required.
be warned that a cheapo HO alt could die far faster than your stocker under the same stress. you can cheap out when it comes to extra batteries, but you should never cheap out on a HO alt.
GAM (The Kilted One) wrote: if you think you're that much better than them because you're "correct" I hope your progeny don't turn out as screwed up as yourself.
JLAudioCavalier wrote:Anton Miller (PPC) wrote:
yea, i was saying that too much battery storage is a bad thing
ummm I think the point here is that you are STILL wrong after your explanation of your previous wrongness. No, more storage is not a bad thing. How is having a bigger gas tank a bad thing when I only have enough money to fill half of it? If I ever want to go on a long trip, and get the money for the gas, I can without any further mods or stopping for gas more often..... Get the analogy? More storage isn't a bad thing just because you don't YET have the means to fill it all quickly.
im sticking with my statement, just like its been said a bunch in this topic alone, if your alternator cannot keep up with the draw of power, then the power comes from the batteries, if the batteries get used for too long without charging they will die, if your alt is just charging batteries all day how does it supply power to the system? and your analogy makes no sense at all, just because you dont have enough money to fill gas tank doesn't mean anything, im just confused as to how you even think that statement is relevant at all.
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