A buddy of mine who will be doin my custom box for my 12" sub said that I should get at least a 1 farad capacitor for my 400 watt amp and my 500 watt 4-channel. Is that a good investment or can I wait on that? I have a 2005 sunfire and have seen/heard about when you run too much power it'll make your headlights and interior lights dim, something I really don't want. All suggestions will be considered. Also, does anyone know how I should wire my 4 channel for my interior speakers as far as bridges and frequency passes?
caps help some with lights dimming but dimming lights is the price we all pay for lots of watts. bout the best thing that can be done is a second battery or power cell in the trunk, plus depending on the parts used on both sides it might even cost around the same price. well good luck man.
For every 1000 watts of power you should have 1 farad cap(not set in stone, but a general rule of installers). The cap will be your best investment. As for the "price we pay" ect, someone did not wire the system up correctly if you are having problems with lights dimming. You need a bigger cap.
Sam
Ban low-performance cars, not high-performance ones.
get a battery its way better than a stupid cap!!!!!
Here's the thing. I haven't even installed the amps yet and I would like to prevent it from happening all together. Eventually would like to get into shows and stuff but I have to start from the bottom up I guess. I've also heard about getting a larger alternator instead of caps though too. Is that even the right thing to do when I'm only going to be running 900?
Steve Goodale wrote:Here's the thing. I haven't even installed the amps yet and I would like to prevent it from happening all together. Eventually would like to get into shows and stuff but I have to start from the bottom up I guess. I've also heard about getting a larger alternator instead of caps though too. Is that even the right thing to do when I'm only going to be running 900?
I was just about to suggest a high output alternator.
Sam wrote:For every 1000 watts of power you should have 1 farad cap(not set in stone, but a general rule of installers). The cap will be your best investment. As for the "price we pay" ect, someone did not wire the system up correctly if you are having problems with lights dimming. You need a bigger cap.
Sam
You need a bigger cap if you're dimming? Err, no, if you're dimming you arn't getting enough power. A cap isn't going to MAKE power for you, its going to draw it and store it and discharge it quickly...If you're dimming you're giong to need to upgrade something else. The big three is a good place to start and wysiwyg has a great faq on it a few pages back. A better battery/alternator can also do wonders, but a cap is not going to help you if you dont have enough power to begin with.
wysiwyg wrote:i would say they bang, they don't really pound so much. but if
you want to bump, then they will bump and hit real hard and a lot good. 
LOL
Chris H wrote:Sam wrote:For every 1000 watts of power you should have 1 farad cap(not set in stone, but a general rule of installers). The cap will be your best investment. As for the "price we pay" ect, someone did not wire the system up correctly if you are having problems with lights dimming. You need a bigger cap.
Sam
You need a bigger cap if you're dimming? Err, no, if you're dimming you arn't getting enough power. A cap isn't going to MAKE power for you, its going to draw it and store it and discharge it quickly...If you're dimming you're giong to need to upgrade something else. The big three is a good place to start and wysiwyg has a great faq on it a few pages back. A better battery/alternator can also do wonders, but a cap is not going to help you if you dont have enough power to begin with.
You say a cap won't help because it's going to draw power, store it and then discharge it, but you say a battery will help? What the @!#$ do you think a battery does? Here's a hint.....the same @!#$@!#$ thing.
You should upgrade your knowlege.
If you can play for long periods of time without draining your battery, even if you're lights dim you have enough power, a cap will help. If you system drains your battery, a cap won't help
Yeah, messed up the quote thingy.
Sam
Ban low-performance cars, not high-performance ones.
Labotomi wrote:Chris H wrote:Sam wrote:For every 1000 watts of power you should have 1 farad cap(not set in stone, but a general rule of installers). The cap will be your best investment. As for the "price we pay" ect, someone did not wire the system up correctly if you are having problems with lights dimming. You need a bigger cap.
Sam
You need a bigger cap if you're dimming? Err, no, if you're dimming you arn't getting enough power. A cap isn't going to MAKE power for you, its going to draw it and store it and discharge it quickly...If you're dimming you're giong to need to upgrade something else. The big three is a good place to start and wysiwyg has a great faq on it a few pages back. A better battery/alternator can also do wonders, but a cap is not going to help you if you dont have enough power to begin with.
You say a cap won't help because it's going to draw power, store it and then discharge it, but you say a battery will help? What the @!#$ do you think a battery does? Here's a hint.....the same @!#$@!#$ thing.
You should upgrade your knowlege.
If you can play for long periods of time without draining your battery, even if you're lights dim you have enough power, a cap will help. If you system drains your battery, a cap won't help
I hate to be the one who says it, but Sam is more correct.
First off - a cap is NOT a battery, and shouldn't really be compared to one. It is a temporary, quick-discharge electrical storage device that doesn't store anywhere NEAR the energy that a battery does (unless it's a batcap (and a large one at that)). For car stereos, people use them to temporarily help smooth out *small* voltage dips that occur when playing music (not tones). If the dimming is only slight, then a cap may help fix this. If you're getting significant dimming when playing your stereo, using a cap is only a bandaid approach to a problem that requires an electrical upgrade to fix.
The thing is, caps may be useful for small systems, but they are absolutely detrimental to anyone running lots of power/SPL systems. They don't store enough energy (unless it's a batcap) to smooth out large voltage dips and, once discharged in the first 0.00001 seconds of a burp, take up valuable electrical resources in order to recharge (they can't recharge fast enough) for the rest of your burp. I've read a hundred different posts where SPLers have actually lost SPL using caps.
I'm rather concerned with this statement:
Quote:
If you can play for long periods of time without draining your battery, even if you're lights dim you have enough power, a cap will help. If you system drains your battery, a cap won't help
If your stereo is draining your battery with your car running, then you either have WAY, WAY too small an alternator for the amount of power you're running, your battery posts are corroded and/or loose, or (more likely) your alternator (or battery) is defective and needs to be replaced.
If the dimming is only minor, then yes, a capacitor may help fix this.
If you're getting alot of dimming, then you are NOT providing enough electical current to your stereo and car's accessories. Period.
Most amps have protection against low voltage and will shut off when you dip below a certain voltage. However, if you happen to have an amp that doesn't have this protection (like in most SPL competition amps), these voltage dips (if big enough) can very easily lead to stereo killage.
The higher the voltage, the smaller the current the amp needs to produce X watts. The lower the voltage, the more current the amp needs to draw to produce that same X watts. More current = more heat produced within the amp = potential frying.
If it were me, I would upgrade your BIG 3 when you install your stereo, and see what sort of dimming problems you have. If you only get slight dimming at full power, then you may want to try a cap. If you're getting alot of dimming (which I would doubt if you're only running 900wrms), then you should think about upgrading your battery and/or getting a bigger alternator.
The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong.
Unholysavage, I didn't go into details, but Sam isn't correct and you have some misconceptions.
Unholysavage wrote:First off - a cap is NOT a battery, and shouldn't really be compared to one. It is a temporary, quick-discharge electrical storage device that doesn't store anywhere NEAR the energy that a battery does (unless it's a batcap (and a large one at that)). For car stereos, people use them to temporarily help smooth out *small* voltage dips that occur when playing music (not tones). If the dimming is only slight, then a cap may help fix this. If you're getting significant dimming when playing your stereo, using a cap is only a bandaid approach to a problem that requires an electrical upgrade to fix.
Thanks for the review of basic AC theory, but a battery and a capacitor stores electrical energy. One chemically and the other magnetically. The capacity is different but they still do the same thing STORE ELECTRICITY. Both must be charged, both can be discharged and neither create energy.
Unholysavage wrote:If your stereo is draining your battery with your car running, then you either have WAY, WAY too small an alternator for the amount of power you're running, your battery posts are corroded and/or loose, or (more likely) your alternator (or battery) is defective and needs to be replaced.
I said if your battery was draining because of your stereo then a cap wouldn't help.
If you have dimming but you're not draining your battery, then you have enough power for your system, it just can't deliver it at the times when it's needed. That's why a cap would be helpful. They're used to fill in the gaps.
Unholysavage wrote:The higher the voltage, the smaller the current the amp needs to produce X watts. The lower the voltage, the more current the amp needs to draw to produce that same X watts. More current = more heat produced within the amp = potential frying.
Only with an unregulated power supply. Amps have a semi regulated power supply so as input voltage goes down the output power goes down. Audio amplifiers are not constant power devices as you suggest.
Unholysavage wrote:The thing is, caps may be useful for small systems, but they are absolutely detrimental to anyone running lots of power/SPL systems.
I think he said he's running around 900W. I'd not consider that out of the useful range of a cap.
Unholysavage wrote:They don't store enough energy (unless it's a batcap) to smooth out large voltage dips and, once discharged in the first 0.00001 seconds of a burp, take up valuable electrical resources in order to recharge (they can't recharge fast enough) for the rest of your burp. I've read a hundred different posts where SPLers have actually lost SPL using caps.
In an audio installation the cap will charge faster than it discharges. And I don't think he said anything about being in any SPL competitions. And these valuable electrical resources that you say they take up, well, they only charge when there isn't excessive demand on the system, so the resources can be spared during these times.
I'm no longer gonna touch this, it looks like it's gonna get ugly. Too full of mis-information for me.
Sam
Ban low-performance cars, not high-performance ones.
Here are a couple of articles that explain the differences between batteries and caps:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/capacitor3.htm
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/PY106/Capacitors.html
http://www.pbse.be/index.cfm?PageID=15418
Yes, both batteries and caps store electrical energy, but there is a huge difference between the two: Caps do very little more than store and discharge electrical energy. Batteries are different in that the chemical reaction in batteries both creates and stores electricity. Your whole conservation of energy theory is still solid - neither caps or bats create energy. However, a battery does create electricity from an electrochemical reaction (just changes energy from one form to another).
The thing is - if you're stereo is causing your lights to dim considerably, then you ARE draining from the battery (your alt isn't producing enough current to keep the voltage above the level of the battery). I completely agree that a cap will certainly smooth out small voltage dips, but it won't do enough to help with large voltage dips (at least not with 1 farad), or those caused by extended bass notes that are becoming more and more common in modern music. Sure, a cap will recharge in between bass hits, but it's the magnitude of the excessive current draw that should be focussed on. A cap can only discharge the energy that it stores, and does so very quickly. However, when the amount of energy it discharges isn't enough to 'fill in the gaps', then it's time to ugrade your electrical
With only 900wrms, a cap should be fine to use on an otherwise stock electrical system. With only 900w, I myself would try a BIG 3 upgrade before deciding on whether or not a cap is needed (if nothing more than to keep from wasting money). When people start running as much power as I, or other people here, are running, your money can be spent better elsewhere.
The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong.
Unholysavage wrote:Here are a couple of articles that explain the differences between batteries and caps:
http://www.howstuffworks.com/capacitor3.htm
http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/PY106/Capacitors.html
http://www.pbse.be/index.cfm?PageID=15418
Yes, both batteries and caps store electrical energy, but there is a huge difference between the two: Caps do very little more than store and discharge electrical energy. Batteries are different in that the chemical reaction in batteries both creates and stores electricity. Your whole conservation of energy theory is still solid - neither caps or bats create energy. However, a battery does create electricity from an electrochemical reaction (just changes energy from one form to another).
A battery does not create energy, it converts it. Pb+PbO2+2H2SO4<-->2PbSO4+2H2O+free electrons. Note that this equations goes both ways, if you add free electrons (charge), it converts Lead Sulfate and Water to Lead and Sponge Lead and Sulfuric Acid (at a higher voltage). This is storing energy and releasing energy which is what a cap does, only it stores energy in magnetic fields.
Unholysavage wrote:The thing is - if you're stereo is causing your lights to dim considerably, then you ARE draining from the battery (your alt isn't producing enough current to keep the voltage above the level of the battery). I completely agree that a cap will certainly smooth out small voltage dips, but it won't do enough to help with large voltage dips (at least not with 1 farad), or those caused by extended bass notes that are becoming more and more common in modern music. Sure, a cap will recharge in between bass hits, but it's the magnitude of the excessive current draw that should be focussed on. A cap can only discharge the energy that it stores, and does so very quickly. However, when the amount of energy it discharges isn't enough to 'fill in the gaps', then it's time to ugrade your electrical
With only 900wrms, a cap should be fine to use on an otherwise stock electrical system. With only 900w, I myself would try a BIG 3 upgrade before deciding on whether or not a cap is needed (if nothing more than to keep from wasting money). When people start running as much power as I, or other people here, are running, your money can be spent better elsewhere.
I'm sorry. I was wrong about Sams statement. He's correct. Chris H is the one I meant to say was wrong.
But you don't need to link these websites for me. I do have an EE degree and there's nothing there I haven't seen before and there's much they left out. I did look at them anyway and here's a quote from one
Quote:
Capacitors are very good at storing charge for short time periods, and they can be charged and recharged very quickly. There are many applications, however, where it's more convenient to have a slow-but-steady flow of charge; for these applications batteries are used.
A battery is another device for storing charge
Right there two points are made. One, battery reaction is slow. Two, both capacitors and batteries store charges which is what I originally stated or do you think batteries don't need to be charged initially?
Unholysavage wrote:The thing is - if you're stereo is causing your lights to dim considerably, then you ARE draining from the battery (your alt isn't producing enough current to keep the voltage above the level of the battery).
I never said you weren't draining your battery "temporarily", but even if the lights are dimming, the alt can charge the batt back up during off peak times. The average voltage over time isn't decreasing therefore the battery will never discharge therefore a cap to smooth the dips is the only thing that is needed. If the average voltage over time is decreasing it means that you are exceeding your alternators output over time and the battery voltage is getting lower and lower, then the only solution is to upgrade your alternator.
Upgrading the big 3 will help with dimming only if it's caused by voltage drop along the power cables. It'll do nothing about exceeding the alternators capacity. It's still a good place to start just because most peoples problems are caused by high cable resistance with high currents.
kaotik29 wrote:get a battery its way better than a stupid cap!!!!!
your stereo shouldn't be running off your battery much if at all unless your car is off.
._____________________________.
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DIY Clear 03+ Headlights
I'm just going to sit here and smile
steve, hook up your system and wait on purchasing a cap or alternator, at this point you dont even know if there is a problem. if a problem occurs you can get your alternator load tested at most auto parts places. find out wether the problem is small or large and then go from there on what is the best way of fixing it. it doesnt make much sence to spend your money now on a problem you dont even know if you have.
buying it now would be like going around looking for a new bumper and fenders because you feel that this is the spot you may damage if your in a wreck. when in reality you may get hit in the rear bumper and then you'd have to put out more money to actually fix the problem.
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For the most part I agree with, and am on the same page as you, Lab.
I should clear up one thing first - I never said anywhere that batteries create energy; the chemical reaction within them does create electricity (electrons that flow - you know all this stuff anyway). Other than that, I'm pretty much in agreement with you.
From personal experience, I can tell you first hand that upgrading the BIG 3 did make a big difference in my cavalier, much more than when I had a 1.5 farad cap. When I was running my PA Vector (benched at a little over 1600wrms at 1 ohm) and the cap (1 yellowtop, no BIG 3, 4awg power/ground to the Vector), I was getting noticeable dimming with just my daytime running lights on. After reading and researching, I decided to ditch the cap and upgrade the BIG 3, and my dimming problem was no more. My lights are brighter and my car starts quicker than when I had a cap. I should mention that I did try the stereo after removing the cap, but before doing the BIG 3, and I was still getting dimming (approximately the same amount).
I'm no EE, but there has to be some kind of reasonable explanation behind this. Pro-cap people will likely all agree that 1.5 farads was supposed to be sufficient for roughtly 1500wrms. Is it possible that the voltage drop in the stock power/ground cables is alot higher than most people think? Maybe my cap was defective? I really doubt that since it seems to do the only thing it's made for - storing and discharging electricity, and I was still getting dimming after ditching the cap. I believe that the cap actually accentuated the voltage drop that was caused to some extent by the tiny stock BIG 3 cables when playing test tones
It would be interesting to know just how restrictive the stock BIG 3 wiring is.
The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime you have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability you'll get it wrong.
the stock wiring will vary from car to car. taking measurements on several difffrent cars will all give you diffrent numbers. your car just could have been choked by the stock wiring, it may not have had a great connection so was getting a poor flow. this is one the the things i first suggest to people. they like to run huge power and ground wires but leave the stock wiring alone wich causes the system to choke at that point do to a poor factory ground. that the reason some cars will get gains from adding those grounding kits because the stock wiring just isnt that great and may not be getting good grounds but its not just an open and shut case of will it inmprove the car because you could have two cars that came off the same factory line but one has good grounds and one may not have good grounds. its really gotta be taken on a car by car basis.
people always say to run your ground from your amp to the body of the car. well a friend of mine tested it on his car running a ground all the way to the battery, he had less losss running it this way, on my car, i had less loss running thru the cars body to the battery and they were both j-bodies.
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Lanman31337 wrote:I'm just going to sit here and smile
Pulls up a chair offers popcorn
