I decided to get 2 1200d's to run to my RE's so that i could put 1000w to each sub, and strap the amps in copy mode so that the gains were matched (two subs in one ported box). Each amp would run one sub independantly.

After getting my second orion 1200d, and messing around with the copy/master/gain switches for about an hour, i decided that they didn't work.

I called orion (directed) and asked what was up, to which they told me it was a missprint that the amp can actually copy gains. I asked them what the "gain" setting was for (master means the signal that the amp outputs is the same one it inputs, copy copies the x-over settings, wtf does gain do?) and he told me that it was a missprint (WTF??!?!?).

So basically i'm a bit pissed. I looked it up on some other forums and it turns out people have known about this problem since Feb 2004!!! Orions website still has the eleged "missprint" and i'm not a happy camper. Now, along with telling me that it can't copy gains, the guy also told me that when strapping amps you HAVE to bridge them, you can't run each amp to a seperate sub, anyone know if that's true?

Basically i'm not happy with orion, and i was wondering if anyone had any ideas on how to match the gain? The only way that i know how to is to drive to the one shop that i know of that has a scope, which happens to be ~60 miles away each way.

Yes, if you're going to strap the amps you have to bridge them. The main reason people strap amps is to combine their power so they bridge the two together. Matching the gains is easy. Get a test tone on the internet, get a multimeter, hook the multimeter to the speaker outputs on one amp and play the tone, then adjust the gain on the other amp to match the voltages.


-Chris

yea man..what is the point of strapping two amps together if your gonna run them each on their own sub?

strapping amps is done when you want to run multiple amplifiers on one driver


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I wanted to run them strapped specifically because they can match gains, and then i wouldn't have to mess with matching the gains.

Even though they are each running their own sub, they are still in the same enclosure, so they still need to have matched gains. Other than that, what is the purpose of strapping an amp? I was under the impression that the main purpose was the ability to have matched gains so that the sub is getting the same signal from each amp.

Well, lets start with the box. Are the subs divided or in an "open" enclosure? If they are divided, it is not as important to have "matched gains" from a durability stand point.. From a S.Q. stands point... well, yea match them.

A good way to match the gains if to get a good volt meter. (12 volt DC) I say a volt meter, because it is devoted to reading volts. (Less confusing for the not so electronicly inclined.) Get a sine wave generator and test the voltages from the outputs. Match both outputs on the amps. While you are testing the outputs, have a friend test the power going to the amp. Make sure that both amps have the same power going to them when you match the gains.

If this doesnt help, let me know. A test tone works, but a s.g. is the best way.

There's a tutorial on the JL audio website on how to set your gains properly. Like everyone else said, just buy a voltmeter, follow the tutorial for both amps and enjoy!

Yeah, both subs are in the same ported box, one port, two subs, no division.

Setting the gain isn't the problem, it's matching it. I don't know how much voltage or current the amp puts out, which is the reason i didn't really want to use a multi-meter, basically because i don't want to damage the multi-meter (by putting too much power through it) or the amp (by having the resistance too low).

Also, at say 40hz, isn't the voltage going to be switching from + to - 40 times a second? Unless speakers work some magical way that i don't understand, wouldn't that make it kind of hard to read on a multi-meter? and actually necessitate an oscilloscope?

You have IDENTICAL amplifiers, so if you set both gains to the same voltage, then both gains will be matched.
Here's the link for the tutorial:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=143
There was also another thread here that went in-depth into setting gains, and also had the formula you need to determine what voltage your amp should be set to keep it from clipping. I can't seem to open it (http://www.j-body.org/forums/read.php?f=4&i=84439&t=83977#84439), but I'm sure wysiwyg or the other experts could help you out.
Almost forgot, you'll also need to download tones (Bass Mechanik won't cut it) to set them properly.
Hope the j-body link works - that's how I set my gains.

yea, you set your gains with the subwoofers disconnected anyways...after that you are good to go, take the advice given and run with it


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cool, thanks guys.

No prob! The link to the gain setting thread appears to be dead, so I found another on sounddomain:
http://forum.sounddomain.com/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=030419;p=

This thread has the correct formula you need to determine how many volts your amp should be putting out a full/unclipped power (you use the multimeter to set your gains to that number). They also let you know where you can download tone generators etc, which is nice.
Good luck!

Chris wrote:Setting the gain isn't the problem, it's matching it. I don't know how much voltage or current the amp puts out, which is the reason i didn't really want to use a multi-meter, basically because i don't want to damage the multi-meter (by putting too much power through it) or the amp (by having the resistance too low).

Also, at say 40hz, isn't the voltage going to be switching from + to - 40 times a second? Unless speakers work some magical way that i don't understand, wouldn't that make it kind of hard to read on a multi-meter? and actually necessitate an oscilloscope?

Alright, first off multimeters have a input impedance of something stupid like 10 million ohms, so when connecting it in parallel with lets say a 4 ohm sub the amp will still see 3.999999999999 ohms. They are designed this way so that they can take readings without inturupting devices. This also means you can have a 2000RMS amp and still measure the output without worries because it's such a massive input resistance next to no power will go through the meter. Plus as far as voltage goes the output of a 1000watt amp will still only be like 80VAC (P = (V^2)/R) and the rest of the power comes from the current. So it's not bad at all for a multimeter.

And you ask about how the meter reads the output, it reads the average voltage. Think about a wall outlet, 110VAC @ 60hz but it's easy enough to use a meter to read it. Works the same for your amp.



The one thing that REALLY gets to me when reading this and other forums is there usually is never any mention of using a TRUE RMS multimeter. The $20 one you buy from Wallmart is not a true RMS meter and reads "roughly" the peaks of AC waves... it's very inaccurate, but for a hobbyist it does an ok job. And it scares me when I see people "tuning" their amps using a cheap POS multimeter and following equations to determine the voltage the amp will be able to put out that's unclipped... that's a bull@!#$ way to do things and it's only a rough idea. Unless you have really good multimeter you shouldn't be using that equation to tune your amps, or if you do and you come up with a number like 65VAC set it for 61VAC or something slightly lower then what you calculated just to be on the safe side and possibly save your subs.

Maybe I'm just a bit slow (long day at work), but the formula you just flamed asks for the true RMS of the amp (which I took from the birth sheet for my vector). That should give you a voltage that is in RMS as well, right? Using the true RMS multimeter you spoke of, please tell me why setting my amp (40VAC (RMS) in my case for 1600wrms) with that value will cause clipping (assuming that my alt, battery, wiring are OK, and I don't go crazy with bass boost)? FYI, I used my dad's rms multimeter, but never thought to mention it earlier.

Most people know that the best way to set gains to prevent clipping is using an oscilloscope, but this guy asked about matching gains on his orions. If this post p!ssed you off so much, why didn't you chime in 2 days ago with your advice, instead of bringing this "chip-on-your-shoulder" attitude?
If there is a better/easier/less explosive method of matching/setting gains, by all means - the floor is yours. I have no problem learning something new if someone's willing to teach it.

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unholysavage wrote:Maybe I'm just a bit slow (long day at work), but the formula you just flamed asks for the true RMS of the amp (which I took from the birth sheet for my vector). That should give you a voltage that is in RMS as well, right? Using the true RMS multimeter you spoke of, please tell me why setting my amp (40VAC (RMS) in my case for 1600wrms) with that value will cause clipping (assuming that my alt, battery, wiring are OK, and I don't go crazy with bass boost)? FYI, I used my dad's rms multimeter, but never thought to mention it earlier.

Most people know that the best way to set gains to prevent clipping is using an oscilloscope, but this guy asked about matching gains on his orions. If this post p!ssed you off so much, why didn't you chime in 2 days ago with your advice, instead of bringing this "chip-on-your-shoulder" attitude?
If there is a better/easier/less explosive method of matching/setting gains, by all means - the floor is yours. I have no problem learning something new if someone's willing to teach it.

The "chip-on-the-shoulder" attitude comes from exactly what I said above, there is nothing wrong with the equation to calculate the approx RMS voltage your amp needs to put out in order to do the power it's supposed to, the problem comes when people tell other people who tell other people who tell OTHER people all they need is a multimeter to do this.

If you actually read all the above posts there are quite a few mentioning using a multimeter to tune the amps... but never once until my post was it mentioned that there is a major difference between your Wallmart $20 meter and a good Fluke $400 multimeter... if the meter you're using isn't true RMS then the whole equation is garbage and you're now improperly tuning your amp. That's the whole point. And even if you read that HOW TO you posted, the very end of the topic the guy who posted it says this only works with a true RMS meter, not mentioned at the top... so how many people followed his advice and improperly tuned their amps?

So I'm not sure where you got the idea I flamed the equation... I flamed the instruments commonly used to carry out the formula because often they are not good enough to be doing what you're asking it to do. And that pretty much defeats the whole purpose of what Chris is trying to do does it not?

But either way, if you want to carry out this discussion or if you figure I'm still being a prick about everything feel free to PM me. No point in having everyone reading through this because you can't understand what the point of my post was about and decided to try and pick it apart.

Sorry man, I guess I went off when I read the "REALLY gets me" and "bull@#$%" parts of your response. There seem to be so many people in these forums just out to flame people trying to lend a hand that I mistook your response as one of them.
For the how 2s, I put them in with the hopes that he would read them thoroughly. The JL method is WAY too simplistic, which was why I wanted to get to that J-body thread (which was the best I've read). You're right when you say alot of people would just read the 1st paragraph, go out, buy an analog MM, and easily set their gains 5-7V too high. I personally paid way too much $$ for my gear to even consider doing things half-assed (especially when I install everything myself).

What a way to completely ruin a good companys reputation...


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The reason i said orion sucks is because they completely ignore the fact that they have an unworking portion of their amp, and they have done absolutely nothing to fix it.

They told me that there was a misprint in their manual - that's understandable, it happens. BUT, their webpage hasn't change at all, and still lists their amp as able to match gains. NOW, if someone tried to put two amps that they thought were gain matched to one sub, they could burn up both the amps and sub (from what i understand at least, if i'm wrong, let me know). Granted, it is adviseable to check that the gains are in fact matched, but i think it's bad business to not acknowledge the problem.

This is all not to mention that the company has known about this since february 2004 (as per a thread i read on another forum - which i can find if anyone doesn't believe me).

The amps have great power, don't get me wrong, but the company is not handling the error with their product well.

wysiwyg wrote:yea, you set your gains with the subwoofers disconnected anyways...after that you are good to go, take the advice given and run with it

Big Tom wrote:Alright, first off multimeters have a input impedance of something stupid like 10 million ohms, so when connecting it in parallel with lets say a 4 ohm sub the amp will still see 3.999999999999 ohms. They are designed this way so that they can take readings without inturupting devices. This also means you can have a 2000RMS amp and still measure the output without worries because it's such a massive input resistance next to no power will go through the meter. Plus as far as voltage goes the output of a 1000watt amp will still only be like 80VAC (P = (V^2)/R) and the rest of the power comes from the current. So it's not bad at all for a multimeter.

So do you connect it in parallel with the sub, or do you have the sub disconnected? The thread that was linked from this thread says disconnect the sub, then it says to adjust the gain up to whatever voltage you calculated. Which do you do? Sub connected, or disconnected? Also, if the sub is disconnected, do you just screw the probes into the terminals?

It's not cool if orion sells a product saying that it can do a certain thing, when in reality it can't (with the mistake being potentially lethal to other expensive audio equipment). False advertisement is never good, and orion should know better.
However, I do have to applaude orion as being one of the only "original" high-end companies that didn't succumb to the pressure of making equipment that was more style than function (such as rating things at 14.4 volts, and putting neon lights in instead of quality goods - RF and Phoenix, that shot was for you!!). My 4-channel orion cobalt amp was bought in 1990 by my best friend; I bought it off him 7 years ago and it hasn't given either of us a SINGLE problem in 15 years! It's old, really ugly, has seen WAY too much abuse, but hasn't given me any reason to replace it, so I can't flame orion for a single thing. There new stuff seems to be just as good as their old tanks. That's the exact opposite of the experience I've had with Alpine and Pioneer subs and amps. Granted it's been 4-5 years since I dealt with them, but those bad experiences stick with me.
Your orion amps are top-notch, so I hope you don't ditch them. Set them up the way people on this forum have mentioned, and they'll last you a long, long time.

When measuring the voltage to set the gains, you want the subs to be disconnected. Just do like you said and put the probe ends in the speaker terminals on the amp.

I think the problem here is you're wanting the amps to do something they were not designed to do. If you were the strap the two amps together and bridge them to one sub, or a pair of subs wired together, then one of the amps would be the master and one would be the slave unit. Both amps would run off of whatever settings the master amp was set at. So in that case, yes the gains would be matched. For what you are trying to do however this won't work because you want to run each amp to a seperate sub, which I'm still not sure why you don't want to just wire the subs together and bridge them to the strapped amps, but that's your business.


-Chris

Chris wrote:

Big Tom wrote:Alright, first off multimeters have a input impedance of something stupid like 10 million ohms, so when connecting it in parallel with lets say a 4 ohm sub the amp will still see 3.999999999999 ohms. They are designed this way so that they can take readings without inturupting devices. This also means you can have a 2000RMS amp and still measure the output without worries because it's such a massive input resistance next to no power will go through the meter. Plus as far as voltage goes the output of a 1000watt amp will still only be like 80VAC (P = (V^2)/R) and the rest of the power comes from the current. So it's not bad at all for a multimeter.

So do you connect it in parallel with the sub, or do you have the sub disconnected? The thread that was linked from this thread says disconnect the sub, then it says to adjust the gain up to whatever voltage you calculated. Which do you do? Sub connected, or disconnected? Also, if the sub is disconnected, do you just screw the probes into the terminals?

Sorry about the confusion, I was more talking about how a multimeter works then how to actually do this test because in your post you seemed to be worried about hooking up a meter to the speaker outputs. Yes the sub should be disconnected for the test because the sub is rated to be a certain ohm load at rest but while you're playing audio through it the resistance changes (Yes I know it's not the proper terminology, I'm just keeping it simple) which would throw off your calculations.

If you wanted to get really good try to find yourself a set of power resistors and a scope. I'm fortunate enough to work for an audio company and have unlimited access to some pretty serious test equipment including a bank of (10) 250W 8ohm power resistors that I can hook up to my amp and tune with because I know exactly what load my amp will be driving. I've even hooked up my Alpine 9815 to the Audio Precision distortion analyzer to get an idea how loud I can go before I start getting harmonics and clipping etc for the record it's about 30/35 before the harmonics JUST start and then 32/35 for the clipping. So when I tune my system, I always have my deck set for 30.

Before i start, i want to say that i don't think orion amps suck. I think orions business policy sucks, that's what i meant in the first place.

Besse wrote:
I think the problem here is you're wanting the amps to do something they were not designed to do. If you were the strap the two amps together and bridge them to one sub, or a pair of subs wired together, then one of the amps would be the master and one would be the slave unit. Both amps would run off of whatever settings the master amp was set at. So in that case, yes the gains would be matched. For what you are trying to do however this won't work because you want to run each amp to a seperate sub, which I'm still not sure why you don't want to just wire the subs together and bridge them to the strapped amps, but that's your business.
-Chris

Actually the amps wouldn't match gains (unless bridging them will magically make them match gains, which i can't see how it would do, but i can test it out), and that's the problem. They are supposed to have a master/slave option, but they don't (well they do, but it doesn't work) - hence my problem.

The reason i'm running one amp per sub is because that's how each amp can see a 2ohm load. If i were to bridge the speakers, each amp would be seeing 1 ohm, which according to the specs, the amps don't do (although i've been told they will, but why run it at 1 ohm when i can run at 2?).

Besse wrote:
When measuring the voltage to set the gains, you want the subs to be disconnected. Just do like you said and put the probe ends in the speaker terminals on the amp.

This brings up another question. The multimeter supposedly has a very high resistance, but that won't affect the voltage that the amp puts out? If i tune the amp to put out 44.7V (what the equation above said i should adjust it to) with the multimeter, that will be correct? I just want to make sure i have everything correct before i do it.

the amps are made to run at one ohm bro. unless you are talking about 1 ohm strapped. then its .5 to each. and I believe they would take it. I run my 2500d at that load. Strapping is a little more volatile though. I know some people over at termpro have ran them strapped in fact one is CRXbumpn. Try to contact him and he can tell you. Hes good friends with an orion dealer so isnt afraid to smoke stuff.

ok, thanks, i'll do that. BTW, i mis-posted, i'm running them at 1 ohm right now, they'd be running .5 if i bridged them.