I've been reading up on wiring for the 3rd Gen 3400 swap. I was planning on going with a 2nd gen harness and PCM, but it has it's complications. I'm waiting for a guy to get back to me right now to let me know if he can remove all the auto tranny features from the factory 3400 computer.
I got to thinking, the OBD1 setup in the 2nd gen wouldn't be a good setup atop of the rest of the complications going that route. I think everything changed to the OBD2 in 1996 am I correct? Well then I got to thinking that I could use the 3100 harness and computer from a 96 Beretta Z26. I'd still have to get a chip burned to run the 3400 injectors, and wiring into the J-body cluster would still be a pain in the ass but it would make things simpler with the VSS and auto tranny stuff freakin out right?
I'm probably just exciting myself cuz someone has probably already thought of or tried this.....
You're making it just too hard. If you're going to do that, you're best off to get a Grand Am ECU and harness. Then you can get HPTuners and change fuel settings yourself.
I have thought about that, but I don't think anyone has actually came up with a sure fire way to get the factory J body tach to work with the GA harness and computer. I may just go with the Grand am stuff anyway. Someone around here has HPT.
What makes you think that the Beretta stuff is going to be any different?
You also need to see if there's someone that supports the Beretta ECU's. There is no burning of chips on those computers though, I will tell you that. The Beretta 3100 computer is still going to not like the auto trans missing. 3x00's came ONLY in automatic versions.
The z26 was available with a 3.1 and a 5 speed if I'm not mistaken...
Not with the 3100.
No 3x00 came with manual. The old 3.1 did, but that's the 2nd gen V6. The 3rd Gen V6 didn't come attached to manuals.
However, you can put the 3100 on the older manual... .obviousy.
A question occured to me that might help this guy. Now the old Z24's had 3.1's and 5 speeds. probably the same as the z26. Can he run that old harness on a 3rd gen 3100? If so that would be a great quick swap if he would settle for a few less horses.
Michael what year J do you have for this swap. If you want to make your stock cluster work, you might start there for the question of what year engine harness to use.
Actually whats the HP difference in the 3100 and 3400 guys?, I wouldnt think there is much difference since you cant tell with out lifting the hood.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Yeah, it can. The 2nd gen guys do that with their 3400 swaps. There's a guy on v6z24 or 60degreev6 (probably both) that even makes chips for this, that allows you to run the new Multitec 2 injectors with the old OBD-I ECU.
The 3rd gen engine is anything that says 3100 or 3400. Just on the 3100 you have the small port and the large port. The chip probably wont need modified much on the small port 3100. The injectors might even make it that far. I know with the 3400 the 3.1 injectors run out of room on the high end.
I know about the 2nd gen harness being able to run the 3400 with a chip burned for the computer, or you could just run the 3400 with the stock 3.1 injectors. I have a 1997 Sunfire. I also knew that none of the 3100's came with a 5 speed. I guess I just got a little cunfused. Right now I'm leaning towards the 3400 computer and harness, and using HPT to change the auto tranny stuff. I'm also debating the Idea of having Painless Wiring do me up a harness so I can just plug everything in and go.
SHOoff wrote:Yeah, it can. The 2nd gen guys do that with their 3400 swaps. There's a guy on v6z24 or 60degreev6 (probably both) that even makes chips for this, that allows you to run the new Multitec 2 injectors with the old OBD-I ECU.
If I were to do a stick instead of my auto, I think that would be my choice. Especially since he is going with a 97 sunflower, (sorrry I had to) to put it in to. After my venture with serial data crap on mine, I would definetly shy away from 00+ stuff in the older swap j's, the rest of the cars electronics arent going to work very easily with the 3400 harness and PCM. If even at all as far as the cluster is concerned.
And It also would seem to be the cheapest route, if Im not mistaken. You wont need a $600 engine computer, At least thats what I gather is going on in most 3 4 swaps. If Im wrong on that amount, sorry. I just remember that dollar figure when I was doing research a while back.
Any way , Michael if im not mistaken , your going for the most expensive route. make sure you realize that before you make yours non driveable. Especially since you brought up a new engine harness from Painless.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Well... providing that it was a 3spd auto you'd be ok. And some OBD-I PCM's can control the 4T60-E. But, that controller cannot control the 4t45-E. Difference is the 60 has a vacume modulator and the 45 has the pressure controlled by the PCM.
I originally planned on going with the 2nd gen 3.1 harness and computer, and keeping the stock computer to run the gauges and stuff, but I want something that's going to be reliable. I've also heard, that an originally OBD2 car with OBD1 electronics is worth $0, same as if you rolled back your odometer.
Say I did go with the older 3.1 harness and computer, say if I were to have a check engine light pop on some day, would I be able to buy an OBD1 Code reader and use it in my original diagnostic port?
I really want to go a cheap route, but I want it to be reliable because this will be my daily driver.
I connected the diag port from the donor car to the ecm and mounted it under the glove box. I also have my check engine light hooked up and it's not throwing any codes for not having the auto trans. As for having painless do the wiring, i wouldn't do it. When you have your harness worked out, take it out of the car and you can loom it back up yourself and make it look like it did before you hacked it.
660 powered sunfire
Quicklilcav posted that he used the 2nd Gen harness and computer first when he was nearing the end of his swap and he said it really sucked.
Michael Antle wrote:I originally planned on going with the 2nd gen 3.1 harness and computer, and keeping the stock computer to run the gauges and stuff, but I want something that's going to be reliable. I've also heard, that an originally OBD2 car with OBD1 electronics is worth $0, same as if you rolled back your odometer.
Say I did go with the older 3.1 harness and computer, say if I were to have a check engine light pop on some day, would I be able to buy an OBD1 Code reader and use it in my original diagnostic port?
I really want to go a cheap route, but I want it to be reliable because this will be my daily driver.
You can do it and even hook up your check engine light. Hell, if you wanted you can yank the whole damn plug for the diagnostic port from the donor car. I believe it only contains a few wires. Or you can just leave the wires open and short them together to retrieve codes.
Thing is the factory PCM and the OBD-I fighting for things. One problem I have with my MS setup is that you can't hook both ECU's to the same coolant sensor. It makes the gauge work fine, but the draw off that one sensor will make the MS-II think the coolant only gets up to a hair under 100 degrees, so it stays in warmup mode and runs kinda iffy. A 3 wire CTS may solve my problem.... but that's for another day. But, your OBD-I is going to also want the speed sensor input. I dont know how you're going to get 2 signals out for that. Otherwise it'll stick the idle high and just be a whore in general. It's gonna use the VSS for more than determining vehicle speed. Though, it's probably possible to burn a custom chip and get rid of that problem.
So if you guys were to do it all over again, how would you go about doing it?
My post above is a little messed, i was quoting SHOoff.
660 powered sunfire
The same reason. If it doesn't see the VSS it will try to bring the idle speed up to wherever you're at on cruise, so you'll see the 3000rpm idle. I have not the slightest clue what exactly in the program makes it do that.... just know that it does. And it'll sit there and pop the check engine light all day.
Another thing, on a manual trans car. Your idle will stay up a bit higher, maybe 2-300rpm higher as you're slowing the car in neutral. Once your VSS reads below a certain speed (don't remember what number is in the programs) it'll drop the idle back down to 900. I dont think you really want to be revving that low (650) when having a manual transmission.
The other thing is the particular year of OBD-I system you get. You need to have something newer like 93-94 I believe on your VSS. That's why mine was unhooked. I had a 90-91 computer. It's expecting to see a certain PPM out put from the VSS. Problem is that the older VSS sensors have a mechanical output (cable) and then an electric one that ran to the computer. New ones are all electronic. This doesn't look like much of a problem from the outside until you get into how it works. The newer electric ones with no cable have a lot higher resolution to them. Which means you're gonna get a whole lot more PPM to them. And though the old computer isn't set up for that many PPM, it CAN read them that fast. This leads you to having a top speed limiter before you even get out of 1st gear.
But that depends on what you get. I'm pretty sure that as long as your donor car (if 3.1 and 5spd) has got the NVG-T550 in it rather than the 282 then it has the newer style VSS in it (no cable). I think in the 2nd gen J-body world this will also come in cars that have the PH2 body on it.
Wow. That went right over my head.
I hear all of the problems like the speedo thing, Such a small detail, and a huge pain. You know I really enjoy driving a stick as much as the next gear head. but when It really comes down to reliability of a vehicle after the swap I really dont feel that a stick is the best way to go here. I have yet to hear any one that doesnt have a problem with their stick swap. Guys Im not cutting on you, Not at all, You have helped me with my swap, and I thank you. Its just how much reliability will you give up in your ride just to be able to shift manually. Plus it seems that all of the stick swaps end up one driver wonders. You know when you have some one else drive it and you have to give a 10 min speech on how to do this and that.
Now on the other hand, If your strictly building one for the track, thats another story. Build away!!!!
I just wouldnt recommend it for a dependable daily that has to get you to work to pay the bills.
Michael if I were to do it all over again, I would still go with the auto swap. 01 J with 01 Gam gt engine and auto trans. Of all options that I have ran across this was the easiest, cheapest, most reliable swap that I have found. Near factory turn out.
The only thing about it that I would have done different is that I wouldnt have used the never 01 gam upper engine mount, Go with the older one that bolts directly to the J.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
Quote:
You know I really enjoy driving a stick as much as the next gear head. but when It really comes down to reliability of a vehicle after the swap I really dont feel that a stick is the best way to go here. I have yet to hear any one that doesnt have a problem with their stick swap.
The only problem I seem to have in my swap is that the coolant sensor currently does not work. That, and not having traction..... but I figure that 2nd one would probably exist with the auto as well.
I guess you didnt do too bad if thats all that doesnt work.
Believe it or not my traction control works, Im not too sure whether thats good or bad since Ive never tested it on the track. The only problem with it is that on the 01 gam it isnt an option to turn it off. Still spins the tires really good though before the trac control figures out whats going on and kicks in.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
joe malechowski wrote: I have yet to hear any one that doesnt have a problem with their stick swap. .
Hey man, i'v put well over 2000miles on my car and have not had a single problem. I'v also did the swap over a weekend, trust me, it's not that hard. I say if you get a 93-94 grand am harness and did exactly what i did, it should work out for you. I feel my car is soo much more reliable with this motor, i trust it alot more than i trusted my 2.2 and my 2200. Gather up some freinds that know how to work on cars and i'm sure u can get this done within a week.
660 powered sunfire
SHOoff wrote:The only problem I seem to have in my swap is that the coolant sensor currently does not work. That, and not having traction..... but I figure that 2nd one would probably exist with the auto as well.
What route did you take when you did your wiring?
Dxray wrote:joe malechowski wrote: I have yet to hear any one that doesnt have a problem with their stick swap. .
Hey man, i'v put well over 2000miles on my car and have not had a single problem. I'v also did the swap over a weekend, trust me, it's not that hard. I say if you get a 93-94 grand am harness and did exactly what i did, it should work out for you. I feel my car is soo much more reliable with this motor, i trust it alot more than i trusted my 2.2 and my 2200. Gather up some freinds that know how to work on cars and i'm sure u can get this done within a week.
Didn't you say when your driving the car, if you put the Clutch on the floor and let is coast, then it'll stall on you?
Joe, as for the auto being more reliable, maybe it is, but I love the stick. If I couldn't do the 3400 swap with a manual tranny, I wouldn't be doing the swap at all.
Seems that I was fast to think all of the stick swaps have problems. You know Its funny that no one seems to post anything but problems. I guess thats what this is for, but if the non problem swaps arent recognized then we dont get a true feel of what really truely works perfectly.
2000 miles is really good.
01 cav w/01 3400 gam gt 4t45e
