Ok, so we seem to all disagree about strut bars and it is here that I am going to present my case about the GM bar being superior to other bars.
My GM bar diagram:
The main response to bolting the bar to the firewall is that the firewall is thin and will flex. Well, the firewall will flex slightly in the direction of the red arrow (but force isn't being applied to the bar in that manner). The force is being applied on the black arrow and the firewall will not flex in that direction. You can't deny that bolting the bar down doesn't make it stiffer. Try bending the bar before you bolt it down and then try bending it afterwards and you will know what I mean.
My ebay bar diagram:
The ebay bar is a bow shape, and when you apply force on the one end it is going to flex downward (or outward) like a bow. Its made of cheap soft aluminum that I was able to flex by hand.
My choices for strutbars (stiffest to least stiff):
1. GM bar bolted to firewall
2. DC bar
3. Vibrant, Freedom Designs, GM bar
4. Ebay type bars (I think this includes ractive)
Disadvantage of the the GM and DC bar are that you can't put a "load" on it, but that really isn't necessary in my opnion.
I'm buying a gm bar today actually! And after this professional diagram, i'm for sure bolting it to my firewall! haha thanks
i have the gm bar bolted to my firewall i think its far superior
Well, thinking about it some more, I would venture to say that the DC bar is as stiff as the GM bar bolted down. The DC bar is a very sturdy tube (tubes are stronger than bars).
Since its actualy desinged by the cars manufacturer then it would seem it is the better design. But I realy cant see that fire wall moveing that much to say the after maket ones aren't as good. But i agree with you that since G.M. makes it then it should be at least margenaly better do to the fact that they built the car in the first place. I still like my chrome one better tho.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
Agreed GM's version is the one with the most sense.
I don't know how other STBs are, but my theory is... . The bar has to be a (one)solid/soldiered piece, not the ones where you tighten bolts/screws at its ends to make it stiff, to me it defeats the purpose of a brace.
I have had the GM bar the week after I bought my GT and no regrets whatsoever.
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
I have the DC Sports bar, it doesn't flex at all not forward, backward, not at all.
Very solid piece, carbon steel is VERY strong.
What material is the GM bar made out of, my assumption would be aluminum?
-Chris
Rksports is the same design and bolts up to the firewall also, so that would be #2.
The GM brace is steel (I believe). It felt a little to heavy to be aluminum.
I also thought RK's bars were just GM bars dipped in chrome or whatever.
rk did sell gms bar
they also made a special bar to fit with the ram air hoods
gm's bar is made from steel
Art is probably writing some 4 page essay and thats why he hasn't weighed in yet...
Nah,
He won't step in.
He's been with be on my strut bar parade so I'll weigh in.
All I can say is:
Mathematically, physics speaking, and whatever numerical jimmer jammer you wanna go by....yes, having the bar bolted to the firewall makes it more 'stiff'
And yes, material dynamics says that steel is stronger and aluminum.
And yes, a good weld is going to be stronger and any nut bolt combo.
That's all common sense.
But......
The GM brace, Art was able to bend as the fire wall.
All the aluminum, and the GM (hollow) tube steel bars can be bent on their own.
Personally I just dislike the fact the bar has the bend to reach to the firewall in the first place.
And that carbon steel bar though not likely. (you guys gonna make be get that one now..boo)
I'm having a little dificulty with your anology with the 'bowed' braces.
Not the actual bowing. But how you say front to back.
A better desciption would be up and down.
I mean, unless you wanna install the thing flat side facing front.
Bottom line, they all do the same thing.
Pick whatever you want.
Be happy.
Quit the debate.
P.S.
Everyone with this big debate with the front strut bar.
What about the rear?
There is no firewall to connect to.
And except for the mantapart GM "look-a-like-would-have-been-factory" rear brace, all those bracesare of the nut and bolt type.
So a debate on them now?
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
^^^ agreed....
as the pics you posted above
zach, it simply shows that the strut towers are already welded on two sides, which i;ve pointed out over and over again. so if you believe the gm bar stops front to back movement, you are saying that magically 1-2 bolt to the firewall is more dominant than the fact that the strut towers ARE WELDED TO THE SAME PART...
since the towers are ALREADY WELDED to two sides of the FRAME the firewall, and the side rails of the unibody, realistiically speaking and from testing, you only need a brace that will box out the entire structure really.
any object that is secured in a corner to atleast 2 sides will have all movement on those two planes minimized.
i;ve already posted my tests results from skid pads, chassis shops, pictures, diagrams, etc.... i actually went out spent some cash and tested different bars. even got emails from GM, who i assume would know more than most here myself included stating the main reason was to keep the gm bar from chattering against the firewall..... even gm figured out, thin sheet metal isnt a sturdy mounting point,
the majority of everyone else is just posting group think opinions....and to top that off, some here have only had one bar to begin with. never tried any other.
and like mastin said, for everyone so hard strung on saying a stock gm bar is so superior, why are most of you using the 3 piece design rear bar.
i mean you have the most self alleged worlds strongest bar in the front???? but you run with weak bars in the rear? makes absolutely NO sense... and before someone says... "well no one makes...." any shop can weld 3 pieces of metal together.
that would be like buying a hummer only to adapt stock cavalier 14 in wheels on it. de-engineering at its finest.
stock gm bar is what the name denotes....STOCK.
some of the top suspension and performance companies in the world produce aluminum 6061-t1 aluminum bars for lightweight and strong bracing. the next step up is usually titanium. already looked into that and at 143$ per foot, thats a bit more than i wanna do right now.
other bars, 2 and 3 piece offer the same performance, AND the offer the ability to have a nuetral setting, preload positive and preload negative force on the strut towers... anyone who races and doesnt know about taking advantage of that.......just wow. very effective tuning tool for corners.
any one else wanna take the time to actually buy a slew of bars and do the testing? feel free to... but as usual here, i doubt anyone will.
but remember, before you can say something is better than the others, actually have some decent testing done...
cut open some bars people sell for cheap.... aluminum is only weaker to steel when its the same dimensions... however if anyone has, and i doubt, cut open some of the aluminum bars, or seen real side cut views.... you;ll know they are WAY thicker....
a thicker aluminum bar, can be lighter and just as strong if not stronger than a thinner walled aluminum bar.... also the shape of oval, square, rectangle... all have different properties...
else we might as well start believing EVERY person who says "the ride on ebay coils and stock struts is AWESOME! "
even though they have little experience with any other bars....
i personally will still to the actual skidpad testing i've done. as it stands i;m saving weight and have a bar just as strong as anyone elses here.
I got a GM bar...... its been great and I guess I should have bolted it into the firewall too.
I guess I gotta add it to my TO-DO list!
- Darren
ontariocavs.com -||- phewes.snowpants.org -||- zukiworld.com
Art, if you ever wanna test the DC sports bar, lemme know (i'm in frederick) we could meet up somewhere.
-Chris
Does anyone have a picture of the GM bar they can post ?
( excuse me on my lack of knowledge about this bar )
Thanks Fellas
.
what you guys think of the Number One strut bar from NOPI?
_______________________________________________________
J-body.org Join date: Monday, January 21, 2002
AIM & Y!: COGcaviZ24
As usual Event buys all the different types does extensive testing and tirless research
on damn near every type of bar and suddenly hes an expert. OH Ummm
WAIT,....................... Actualy he is. If anyone has actualy done all the tests that Event has then they would be an expert too. I know I haven't, I'm "one of those who have only tried one bar" But you know what ? I don't race mine like Event does so what he says makes tons of sence. I'm not gonna lie I bought the Freedom Design bars cause they
work and they look real good. I'm not trying to squeeze ever last .001 of a sec off my lap times but if I were I'd sure listen to what Event was telling me. You too Zach
But like I just said since Event actualy did the research then I'd have to lean toward what hes saying. And thats just cause he's been there and done that, probly got a whole stack of t-shirts too.
Semper Fi SAINT. May you rest in peace.
I have the GM bar it works great. Not saying it is better or worse than any other, since I have not tried any other brand. I do not want to get into this arguement again.
Technically the "stock" GM strut bar is "stock" for 2000- convertable j-bodies. It can not be considered stock for 2000+ non convertables, since it is not a part that comes with the car from the manufaturer. Stock denotes a part that comes on a vehicle from the factory. Aftermarket is parts added after the manufacturing of a vehicle.
Why would you go with a supposedly inferior bar for the back? Well if GM's is superior(not saying it is or isn't); there isn't one for the rear, so you would have to settle for the a different brand. To add, the rear of the car doesn't have a engine resting in it, nor is there as much weight shifting from strut to strut. Therefore, you would not need as strong a bar as in the rear.
Quote:
Technically the "stock" GM strut bar is "stock" for 2000- convertable j-bodies
Is that right?
Not for all 96-02 Converts?
Don't know his name, but the one gentleman had a white 98 Z up at the Jersey J meet convert had the front factory GM brace.
And of course the 18mm front sway bar.
Maybe the number of firewall mounting points went from 1 to 2 in '00
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
The strut brace came stock on all 3rd gen convertibles. There were slightly different models for different years and configs but they all had them.
He's wrong, more false @!#$ on the .org.................the GM brace came on all J convertables, not just 2k+.
Dirty Muffins (Event) wrote:^^^ agreed....
as the pics you posted above
zach, it simply shows that the strut towers are already welded on two sides, which i;ve pointed out over and over again. so if you believe the gm bar stops front to back movement, you are saying that magically 1-2 bolt to the firewall is more dominant than the fact that the strut towers ARE WELDED TO THE SAME PART...
I think I have found our point of confusion. I never said that the bar would stop front to back movement, I was implying that bolting it down would stop side to side movement. If you want to stop front to back movement, you should weld a couple diagonal bars on it and run up to the radiator support and then weld a couple bars going back to the firewall(with a good size backing plate).
As far as the rear STB, yes, I am running a 3 piece. Don't feel like making my own.
Explain the loading to me though, because I don't see it affecting camber much even when cornering. I have NEVER seen anyone adjust their stb at the track.
As far as the aluminum vs. steel, I am completely aware of that. My rear stb is aluminum but that aluminum is of much better quality and design than those ebay banana bars.
Thanks for your thoughtful input (I really do appreciate it).
Quote:
Explain the loading to me though, because I don't see it affecting camber much even when cornering. I have NEVER seen anyone adjust their stb at the track
Probably not much affect.
But just stating with the nuts n bots bars they're capable of being adjusted +/- left or right.
Even the rear braces.
Now we wait for the person to come on here with an off center adjusted bar and make calims of the MAJOR diff.
-M
Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.
