How/Why do big brakes work? - Suspension and Brake Forum

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How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:06 AM
Obviosly big brake upgrades help stop the car but why/how... there is a certain point where the tire can no longer hold the road... factory brakes have enough clamping power to lock up the wheels... you want as mouch force aplied to cam e as close to locking them up as possible withoput locking them up. I know it does work but I don't see having big brakes would make you stop faster... is it just easier to keep the tires at the limit of traction with big brakes? and yes I know they have more esurface area, more even aplication of brakes, ect




Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 7:31 AM
I dont know either man.. My guess is like yours, with big brakes, you got bigger calipers which is more surface area to apply to the rotors to make the car stop faster.. I dunno, just a guess ha.









~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:03 AM
think of it like this....

if you have a size 3 shoe from a kid and try to stop from a slide with a 250 man.... you will overload the friction on it and keep sliding a bit...


now if you do the same thing with say my shoe, a size 15, then you have more area, to grip.... kinda the same as tire footprint.


also the calipers with more pistons or larger ones, its just more efficient and effective.



you can lock em up, if you slam on em..... but... when i start to step on the brakes, it takes less effort to do at 10% than what i was doing with stock at say 18% (example)


also heat fade and issues like that are minimized.



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:54 AM
pretty much what event said


bigger rotor = bigger foot print = quicker stoping with less effort


when you increase tire width it helps also when your on the verge of lock up , since it takes more effort to get the wider tire to loose its grip







Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:21 AM
the way i was gonna put it was:
wikthout locking up the wheels it big brakes brake more in the same distance as stockers.



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 10:05 AM
im a highschool physics student...so not the most advanced stuff... but, you have two scenarios with mediums that can "lock up"... first, you have the friction between the pads and rotors, and then you have the friction between the tires and the road. With bigger pads and stronger calipers to back them up, it seems like you could get a bit more stopping power without the tires sliding. Of course, it depends on the tires and road conditions... i'd have to have the exact numbers for frction coefficients.




Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 10:21 AM
The size of the rotor, and the area of the piston in the caliper are the two factors that will effect braking power.

They will not change stopping distance, this is a major misconception.

They will allow you to lock up the wheels easier, they allow you to brake harder.

So if you can lock up the wheels at any speed, your limiting factor (in braking distance) is determined by the wheels. If you have high performance wheels (AA ratings or the like).

If you have high performance wheels, with stock brakes, you may not be able to lock them up. Your braking distance is limited by your brake rotors/calipers.

NOTE: Locking up your wheels is not good. But, the point just before you lock them up (99% brake lockup pressure) is where you stop the fastest.

If you have high performance wheels, and want better braking then you should get bigger brakes. If you have stock or cheap wheels, there is no point in putting bigger brakes on.


Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 11:48 AM
who makes big brakes for sunfire?
Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:07 PM
eddie muenster wrote:who makes big brakes for sunfire?


Same people as the cavalier.. Ill list some places below

Baer
Willwood
Stainlness Steel Brakes(theres a website for this)
RKsport.com
HighRevmotorsports.com
Gravanatuning.com

Im sure there's more, those are a good starting point for you though.









~2014 New Z under the knife, same heart different body~
______________________
WHITECAVY no more
2012 numbers - 4SPD AUTOMATIC!!
328 HP
306 TQ
Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 12:40 PM
C.T.S wrote:The size of the rotor, and the area of the piston in the caliper are the two factors that will effect braking power.

They will not change stopping distance, this is a major misconception.

They will allow you to lock up the wheels easier, they allow you to brake harder.

So if you can lock up the wheels at any speed, your limiting factor (in braking distance) is determined by the wheels. If you have high performance wheels (AA ratings or the like).

If you have high performance wheels, with stock brakes, you may not be able to lock them up. Your braking distance is limited by your brake rotors/calipers.



best explaination I've ever seen for it



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 1:13 PM
im amazed how no one has said this yet.

the farther you go out from the center of something, the easier it is to stop, torque. granted there are MANY other factors into this, including rotational mass, etc, but the basics is that it is easier to open your door from the opposite end of the hinge, rather than an inch from the hinge. leverage, torque, moment, etc.

so in a big brake upgrade, not only in some ways is it easier to stop the car because you're out farther, you also have a stronger caliper to clamp down onto, that's doing a lot less work (well, the same amount of work as the original caliper, but) doing a lot less relative maximum work its capable of compared to the stock brakes.

then, the dissipation of heat into smaller braking systems can cause mechanical failure of the pad and rotor, basically meaning less area to dissipate heat into with an already less-equipped heating ability -> causes more brake fade.

then, you have the problem with tires in not trying to break static friction (into kinetic friction); after you get big brakes if you truly want to stop faster, without getting into kinetic friction (lockup).

dont get me started on the thermodynamics of what causes the heat dissipation, etc

i may act dumb around here, but i'm alot smarter than a lot of ppl think lol.

but the point in fact is, you will stop quicker more consisitently with big brakes, if you're not an idiot and lock up.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -

Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 1:17 PM
ps - dont believe the misconception that HUGE pads will make all the difference, because in the end, your foot is displacing the same amount of force based on the same amount of area inside the pistons of the caliper. PISTON area is what makes the difference, not the size of the pad. people say big brakes cover more pad area on the rotor, which is a misconception. big brakes cover more piston area.



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- Sold my beloved J in April 2010 -
Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 1:55 PM
Viper is more technically accurate. Although the rotating mass of a 11" rotor vs. a 9" rotor is measurable with lab equipment, we'll never see any difference. But as long as you're bringing it up, don't forget inertial mass of the vehicle is increased by the heavier rotors and calipers.

The misconceptions we speak of is "bigger pads means more brake power". While this may be true in rare circumstances (greater heat dissipation and retention working for and against brake fade) in general we can discount it as a factor.

People think that because it has more surface area it will grab harder. If this were true, sliding (along the ground) an empty refrigerator box would be as hard as when the fridge was still in the box. Any idiot will tell you the empty box is easier to slide. Because it has less weight in it. In science we call this static pressure.

The piston area will determine the pressure the caliper can exert on the pads. The pressure is F = P x A, where F is the force on the pads, P is the pressure from the brake master cylinder, and A is the area of the piston. Obviously, if A is doubled so is F. So bigger brakes have bigger pistons means bigger force.

That bigger force comes to the rotors as a higher "static pressure", and the box is very hard to move with a 300lb fridge in it.

And to clear up the whole fade issue. Think of it like this: You're carry a 5 gallon bucket full of water (it's heavy if you've never done this before). If you use 1 finger it will get "tired" very quickly, possibly damaging the finger from prolonged exposure. If you use all 5 fingers and thumb, they will get "tired" slower. Time to damage is also increased. Either way you go, your arm is still holding up the 5 gallon bucket.
It's the same idea with your brakes. Bigger pads will help them to function longer, and with less wear. But in the end, you're not stopping faster, unless the brakes fail. Just as your arm is not getting tired faster (on 1 or 5 fingers).

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That last post was so poorly/quickly written, I've got to rewrite it:

The diameter of the rotor, and the area of the piston in the caliper are the two factors that will effect braking power. Pad size does not effect brake power.

They will not change stopping distance, unless they are the limiting factor in the brake system, this is a major misconception.

They will allow you to lock up the wheels easier, they allow you to brake harder:

If you can lock up the wheels at any speed, your limiting factor (in braking distance) is determined by the wheels. You need to upgrade to higher performance wheels (AA ratings or the like) if you wan to stop faster.

If you have high performance wheels, with stock brakes, you may not be able to lock them up. Your braking distance is limited by your brake size.

NOTE: Locking up your wheels is not good. But, the point just before you lock them up (99% brake lockup pressure) is where you stop the fastest.
NOTE: Is is harder to lockup your wheels the faster you are going. Same reason it is harder to break them loose (peel out) once you are moving.

So if you can lockup, then you know you can hit this 99% point. If you can't lockup, then you probably can't hit the 99% point.

If you have high performance wheels, and want better braking then you should get bigger brakes. If you have stock or cheap wheels, there is no point in putting bigger brakes on.

This whole post is based on the assumption that you want to upgrade your braking ability. If you're putting them on for good looks, you might as well disregard this whole post.


Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:48 PM
as far as locking them up or reaching the tires limits... that means get better tires too. traction isnt just for accelerating. Suspension even helps stop you by keeping the car level and all 4 wheels in contact with the road as much as possible


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98' Pontiac Sunfire SE

Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 2:51 PM
as far as locking them up or reaching the tires limits... that means get better tires too. traction isnt just for accelerating. Suspension even helps stop you by keeping the car level and all 4 wheels in contact with the road as much as possible


-----------------------------------------------------

98' Pontiac Sunfire SE

Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 3:21 PM
havent locked em up yet...

<img src="http://tiger.towson.edu/~apittm1/trannyLG12.jpg">

one thing....

Quote:

If you have high performance wheels, and want better braking then you should get bigger brakes. If you have stock or cheap wheels, there is no point in putting bigger brakes on.


i kinda disagree on the "cheap part"

people can get larger wheels cheap.... and if you have more rotating mass........which cheaper larger wheels usually have more mass than forged or lightweight wheels which are more expensive.......especially farther away from the center bore, then big brakes can be advantageous...

also for those that autoX or even road course at places like summit point, for fun.... a smaller size of the big brake kits would be to their advantage...


also for those who are going through rotors and pads like people with diarrhea go through toilet paper.... a smaller version of the larger upgrades in atleast the front might be more beneficial economically.



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 5:46 PM
0-100-0 has never been so much fun



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 6:13 PM
I'm able to break traction on my Hoosier R3SO4's using stock brakes. This leads me to believe that the big brake kits are highly over rated. Spend 200-300 on you current brakes for SS lines, performance pads, and decent rotors and you should be in good shape.



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:14 PM
just having the bigger rear disks on my cav even with the stock 15's , im able to stop alot better and more consistant than the stock 1's


our stock brakes suck even under normal use , upgraded stock is the best for the least amount of money


but as the saying goes , bigger is better


but it all depends on how you intend to drive the car


also you can go to big







Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 8:19 PM
Zach wrote:I'm able to break traction on my Hoosier R3SO4's using stock brakes. This leads me to believe that the big brake kits are highly over rated. Spend 200-300 on you current brakes for SS lines, performance pads, and decent rotors and you should be in good shape.


thats only to a limit....

i went that route before....

then i finally did the upgrade.....day and night.


you can spend 2-300$ on the lines and stuff, and then keep changing rotors and pads for 150-200$ each time....

so by the first pad/rotor change, you;ve already spend 500$ nearly.... one more change and thats 700$...


but really i;ll agree with most who posted and yourself, its all in what you plan to accomplish.


but def arent highly or even minutely overrated are big break kits......



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:40 PM
Now you got me started on costs. Read the following carefully.

My pads and rotors lasted a year with ~10 autocrosses on them and ~25,000 hard miles. I figure I'll have to replace my pads and rotors every year at a cost of $100(axxis ultimates and brembos). Shoes every 2 years and I'll probably replace the drums when they have reached a dangerous level.

Big brake kits all around cost $1600. I was orginally out like 275 for slotted rotors, lines, and pads. At a cost of 125 a year (amortizing the shoes/drums stuff at 25 a year) I can go 10 years before I reach your initial cost. You will be replacing your rotors and pads before 10 years, so really it would be like 12-13 years before my setup starts costing more than yours.

Also, since I don't have 1600 laying around I would spend another ~$150 over two years in interest expenses on an 8% credit card. So tack on another year to my setup.

I think my setup is probably the most cost effective way to stop your car quick.




Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:48 PM
Zach wrote:Now you got me started on costs. Read the following carefully.

My pads and rotors lasted a year with ~10 autocrosses on them and ~25,000 hard miles. I figure I'll have to replace my pads and rotors every year at a cost of $100(axxis ultimates and brembos). Shoes every 2 years and I'll probably replace the drums when they have reached a dangerous level.

Big brake kits all around cost $1600. I was orginally out like 275 for slotted rotors, lines, and pads. At a cost of 125 a year (amortizing the shoes/drums stuff at 25 a year) I can go 10 years before I reach your initial cost. You will be replacing your rotors and pads before 10 years, so really it would be like 12-13 years before my setup starts costing more than yours.

Also, since I don't have 1600 laying around I would spend another ~$150 over two years in interest expenses on an 8% credit card. So tack on another year to my setup.

I think my setup is probably the most cost effective way to stop your car quick.


actually i dont even have the rears and its a huge improvement. 800$ and still on drums.... i still do well in daily city driving and in autox.

but basically i paid 800$ up front and i change pads maybe once every 2 years, daily driver, through snow, rain, heat and fog, etc... i also autox, and replacement pads for a 94 mustang cobra or a 86-94 corvette is like 60$...

also my drums are still the original ones that came with the car... still good as DC has a brake force test, and i passed with flying colors in 04.

basically i opted for pay more now, than to pay more over time


but, with that being said, if it works for you, and you;re happy go for it. but i will suggest, if you get a chance go for a ride in a cav with big breaks or drive one if you get the chance.



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Thursday, July 28, 2005 12:50 PM
the FAQ on every major brake company discusses these factors, including: brembo, willwood, stoptech, and baer



Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:32 PM
no stock sized rotor and pad for the J can match the wilwoods at any price, you cant get the same stopping power, its not even close



1989 Turbo Trans Am #82, 2007 Cobalt SS G85





Re: How/Why do big brakes work?
Friday, July 29, 2005 5:17 AM
All of you MUST read Chevy High Performance's 4 issue Little Evil '03 Cavalier story. 5/05,6/05,7/05&8/05. July's issue has the real deal about a 4 wheel big disc upgrade. Turns out its a serious big waste of $$$$$.Read it ( 7/05 issue ) and weep
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