i got the time today to build a rear tie bar for teh race car, let me know what ya think

it is 1/8 angle iron 2x3" and 2" flat bar and 1 1/4" round tube

I like the way that one ties into the beam.

effective just not real pretty



JBO since July 30, 2001

I don't think bob is going for pretty at this point lol

whats not pretty about? should i chrome dip it? it will get painted but i think it looks sweet under there

BOMB BLACK BABY.

I do very much like the idea of this design.



M62, 42's, ZZP 3", ZZP S3 H/E
214whp 190wtq

if people want these i can make some up and sell them, porbably be $100 each or so plus shipping

shipping could be a killer,

but I'd be down for one to mess around with.

-M


Remember....syringes go in the RED waste basket.

looks tits, shipping would kill everyone though

the fact its angle iron is what makes it not pretty if you used say aluminum tube or even steel tube and tig weld it .

its effective but could be stronger aswell angle iron still flexes



JBO since July 30, 2001

the angle iron is only used to weld the bar to and bolt to the axle control arm. the pieces of steel are not chincy at all as teh pipe is thick wall and so is the iron used. the only stronger way to do this would be solid bars but then what you gain in rigidness will be surpassed with the gain of unsprung weight which kills a car for handling

shipping could probably be done for like $30 each ill get actual qoutes tomorrow when i pull the bar off to paint it

I just made one recently for my car similar to Blu's design.

I see this one to be a much more effective piece than my standard tie bar..

Do you know if your design will clear the rear eibach's or addco's? Looks like it would.

Also, Do you know how much it weighs?

just checked shipping, $30 max for parcel post or $50 max for priority, those values were check shipping to the zip code furthest from mine

it wiehgs 15-20 lbs. i dont have any sway bars to check it on right handy, maybe i can grab one off of a buddies car who has the addco. This design also almost coompletely renders the sway bar unfunctional, because when one side moves up or down the other will follow there wont be a seperation of angles for the sway bar to compensate for.

This design should completely lift the inside rear tire off the ground while doing hard cornering, which on circle tracks in FWD's is the fast way around

i will obviously paint the bar for people that buy one so that the steel will not rust

the bolts on the axle 'control arms' are 7/16 grade 8 and the bolts to the beam are 3/8 grade 8

tomorrow i will get pics of it off the car

Bob Guptill wrote:it wiehgs 15-20 lbs. i dont have any sway bars to check it on right handy, maybe i can grab one off of a buddies car who has the addco. This design also almost coompletely renders the sway bar unfunctional, because when one side moves up or down the other will follow there wont be a seperation of angles for the sway bar to compensate for.

True, Never thought about that. Now thinking about it, with your bar and a sway bar, I would not want to hang 25-30 lbs off my rear axle.

Could you jack up one side of the axle to get a rough idea of how level it stays? If so, pics would be killer.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Wednesday, June 03, 2009 6:15 PM

Why would you want to convert your axle to being solid on our cars?
I don't understand this.
That being the case, why not just use the Trailblazer tie bar which is solid mounted and be done with it?
Plus as I stated in the other post, you'd be increasing your unsprung weight of the rear by an immense amount which again will lessen the already poor handling of our cars from the factory.
I just don't see the design being a good one.
You'd also need a panhard rod to control the motion of this solid rear axle if you're going to use this design.
Any enthusiast knows that an independent acting rear suspension will always outhandle a solid rear axle any day. Even our twist beam axle has enough flex in it that will give some attributes to this philosophy.
Have you actually tested this bar of yours?
A review would be nice with a good comparison of a before/ after analogy of the results.
I guess I'll be the only one here that doesn't like the design.


Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!

^^^^^ X 2

the unsprung weight of this bar is about equal to an addco aftermarket rear sway bar.

look at most fwd race cars, any type of racing the rear is normally kept as hard as possible, real stiff springs with no weight to compress them, huge sway bars, braces, etc.

this is all done to transfer weight to the front tires for increased forward bite coming out of corners, i can tell you that on an oval track if the inside rear wheel comes of the ground, the setup is perfect

Bob Guptill wrote:the unsprung weight of this bar is about equal to an addco aftermarket rear sway bar.

look at most fwd race cars, any type of racing the rear is normally kept as hard as possible, real stiff springs with no weight to compress them, huge sway bars, braces, etc.

this is all done to transfer weight to the front tires for increased forward bite coming out of corners, i can tell you that on an oval track if the inside rear wheel comes of the ground, the setup is perfect

You've got a point on the aftermarket swaybars being just as heavy as your setup.
But looking at your fwd race car summary, they make the rear especially stiff to offset the push that is inherent in the fwd platform.
Stiffening up the rear will give you better turn in on a fwd car but it has to be done in balance.
And to have such a stiff rear as stated would be detrimental to the cars overall handling.
The other reason springs are so hard is for the high speed sweepers which can overwhelm most softer springs. As long as your chassis is stiff enough to handle your suspension setup, you're going to use springs that will still give you good smooth weight transfer without letting loose the rear end because it's so stiff.
Oval track setups would be different and really don't follow the formulas for their suspension setups but again, I've never seen any manufacturer backed race car take a independent suspension and convert it over to solid for racing the road courses.
Bracing is only used to stiffen the chassis and never to convert IRS to solid.



Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!

You can thank the banked turn and only the banked turn for allowing you to turn at all with such a stiff rear suspension. Get that on flat ground and welcome over-steer!


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous

over steer is what we strive for.... we run our cars on the ragged edge of spinning almost every corner. maybe you guys dont realize that this i why im doing these... we need the rear suspension just about solid and all teh flex to be removed

tonight we saw a 35 degree drop in RR tire temps after the 50 lap feature

I don't understand why people want their car to be so sticky on the road. It's a FWD, not a RWD so you want the front end to be as sticky as possible and the back end to be loose. If you can't handle it, you are the problem. Oversteer = faster off the corner. A sticky ass is a nightmare to turn.

Nobody listen to PJ when he talks about wider tires in front to make it tighter????

You need to push on the gas to bring the back straight in a FWD thus resulting in faster speed so I'm with Bob at 10000%. Even in the RWD you'd want the back end a bit loose. If you can't turn you have to slow down. If you can turn, you can go faster.

I wouldn't do it on a DD but for a race car, it's perfect.



Gilles
2.3 Ho

Quote:

Stiffening up the rear will give you better turn in on a fwd car but it has to be done in balance.

That's why I stated this a couple of posts ago.

So now we're starting to see the whole picture of what Bob is trying to do and seems acceptable.

Quote:

I wouldn't do it on a DD but for a race car, it's perfect.

Yup, that statement should end this debate quite quickly.

Anyway, good luck Bob and some pictures of your beast would really be nice.
I'm always up for new ideas with the J platform and how to better it.




Misnblu.com
Newbie member since 1999
Thank you Dave and JBO!

There is a point when there is too much oversteer. Take this off the track and piss to the wind. Again, you can thank the bank. So the whole push the gas to bring the rear straight, yup, right on. What happens when the rear is competing for the lead...lol. Sounds like a winner for the track tho. Have fun Bob.


"Never argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience!" -Anonymous

Quote:

What happens when the rear is competing for the lead...lol

you let it get in front and run on reverse?


Gilles
2.3 Ho