Hi everyone, I stumbled across these sub-frame connectors on-line, and had to share with everyone the absolute best suspension upgrade available for our cars (at least that I have found). I bought a set, installed them in less than an hour (welded), and WOW! (sorry for the crappy pic by the way)
The handling improvement is phenomenal! You will not believe the improvement. Also, these are he basic building block for roll cages (not that I am going that route), but either way you guys really need to look into these if you are looking for drastic suspension stiffening and increased handling. If you want any info on these, just pm or email me and I can get you into contact with the manufacturer.
VanquisherOfTheVariance (Zach) wrote:
all over this post.
Why do you say that? Seriously, if you try them, they really stiffen the suspension up A LOT, gives you better handling 10x what something like bigger sway bars do.
Anyone that has these will back that up.
John Benham wrote:Seriously, if you try them, they really stiffen the suspension up A LOT
The only way to stiffen suspension is springs or coils, and struts.
John Benham wrote:gives you better handling 10x what something like bigger sway bars do.
Swaybars work in a completely different way then these do, they prevent body roll, these are intended to reduce body twist, or torsional flex.
As an avid autocrosser and suspension nut I am here to state that these are fairly worthless on our cars. This is one of those products that does little to nothing to help a car out a unibody car such as a J. These are not the basic building block of a roll-cage they are completely different systems. On a car with a fairly twisty body such as a mustang or camaro it can make a significant by reducing body twist however the J doesn't suffer from this problem.
If your going to spend $250 for bars on a J make them front and rear strut tower braces, which you can get both for less from any jbo dealer.
If you want to buy bracing for a J there are 4 places to put it. The front subframe, rear trailing arms, and front and rear strut towers. All these braces go from left to right across the body of the car.
The best for the rear trailing arm would be an x-brace but most of us avoid that due to autocross rules.
-Chris
I will agree that these work completely different than a sway bar, just giving an example of items that are high dollar that people are buying for suspension upgrades, and perhaps "stiffening" is not the correct terminology to use for the effects these have on the suspension. They do not change the ride quality, and make it rougher/smoother or anything, but the car corners much "stiffer" so to say.
Fact is that our cars DO have body twist, perhaps not as much as say a camaro or mustang, but it is still there, especially in convertible models. I had my fair share of strut tower braces, and took them off because they didn't give me any noticeable difference....at all, even through hard cornering.
I do know that they are developing a cross member for these sub-frame connectors, but they need more support to actually produce them.
If you want to cross-brace the front sub-frame, and rear trailing arm, these are at least an excellent starting point for that, especially for the 2200 guys that cant use the RK sport, or other knock off, front sub-frame brace.
I realize your points iamrascal, and understand to somewhat agree with you, but these really do make a HUGE difference in the way your car handles, as an autocross buff you should be able to realize that. I was a bit sceptical myself, but once I put them on, WOW.
Anything that ties the sub-frames together is going to almost eliminate body twist, and if you are looking to reduce roll, connect the 2 together and there you go.
John Benham wrote:I had my fair share of strut tower braces, and took them off because they didn't give me any noticeable difference....at all, even through hard cornering.
then you didnt get one that would adjust, or the stock vert. GM one. i noticed one HELL of a difference when i bought my front STB, and guess what? it was $26.00 shipped from ebay. you just have to know how to adjust them so it tightens up the tower's. (not saying you dont know how to or something, just saying thats how they work)
as for the frame connectors, i still say they would'nt be worth they're weight.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Tuesday, May 29, 2007 9:56 AM
well I am glad to hear someone noticed a difference with a strut brace. Perhaps it was my cheap versions that I had, although they were adjustable, and i did adjust them, and had them adjusted because I thought I did it wrong because I really didnt feel any difference....even then, nothing other than a shiney piece of metal under my hood & in my trunk.
These connectors really arent all that heavy, I dont remember just how much they weigh in at, but not that bad. I wish there was some way of showing you guys how much they really do, if your in Pittsburgh swing by for a test drive. You'll become a believer in them too. Any other sugestions for that let me know.
I absolutely love how all you suspension gurus have no clue about the chassis. A stiffer chassis is always a good thing, and one cannot suffer from too stiff of a chassis. To anyone in disagreement go down to your local race track.(not a parking lot full of cavaliers and integras) A real race track start talking about how how a stiff chassis wont help and bracing a chassis is a waste of weight and see how you fare once the dust settles. Im done dealing with you people and this is going to be my last post on the org.
Good day
Sean Truax
funky_monkey58 wrote:I absolutely love how all you suspension gurus have no clue about the chassis. A stiffer chassis is always a good thing, and one cannot suffer from too stiff of a chassis. To anyone in disagreement go down to your local race track.(not a parking lot full of cavaliers and integras) A real race track start talking about how how a stiff chassis wont help and bracing a chassis is a waste of weight and see how you fare once the dust settles.
I agree completely. A stiffer suspension is always better, and now it looks like these excellent products will no longer be available for us to have....with hardly anyone giving them a shot. You guys are really missing out on the best suspension product I have seen for our cars, especially for the money.
funky_monkey58 wrote:I absolutely love how all you suspension gurus have no clue about the chassis. A stiffer chassis is always a good thing, and one cannot suffer from too stiff of a chassis. To anyone in disagreement go down to your local race track.(not a parking lot full of cavaliers and integras) A real race track start talking about how how a stiff chassis wont help and bracing a chassis is a waste of weight and see how you fare once the dust settles. Im done dealing with you people and this is going to be my last post on the org.
Good day
Sean Truax
A stiff chassis is always a good thing. However, these don't class well for SCCA Solo II (bumps you right to SM). Chassis flex isn't an issue slowing the cavalier down in Solo II, but weight is it's biggest disadvantage. Thus, this bracing is worthless to me and many others on the board. There is no market for these braces and they have questionable results, so you should have expected failure from the start.
Besides, the best $250 you can spend is on a driving school.
I just brought a set about 2 months ago ( haven't installed them yet ) and Funky_Monkey is absolutely right about his frame connectors they will absoluteley stiffen the chassis far more than any strut tower brace or other sub frame ( a-arm brace really) will. The point of the subframe connectors is they stiffen the pickup points of the rear axle and tie the whole car together. Now maybe the people who scoff at and ridicule this product shold try a set then form their opinion not to mention not everyone here does autocross and isn't concerned about 25 or 30 pounds of extra weight, I want the strongest stiffest chassis I can get and these sfc's really do make a huge difference in chassis stiffness. I guess if you've never driven a high hp/tq car or ever been in a car with a flexi-flyer chassis then you can't appreciate something like this. But I've owned 15 Camaros in my life and driven them before and after adding sfc's and the difference is night and day as far as how quickly the car reacts because everything was working as one unit instead of the front not reacting the same as the rear. I put them on every uni-body car I've ever owned for this reason.
2000 Z24 5spd header & catback for now.
Maybe they're not good for people who take their cars to the track, but if you drive your car on the street, and the streets you drive on happen to have potholes, expansion joints, uneven road surfaces, etc., and you hate hearing your car rattle like a box of crap, these would probably help that out a lot. I know my car could use them, but I've decided that I will not spend any more money on it because it's just crap, and I've already spent too much on dumb @!#$ for it.
John, if you're going to start selling products here then you'll need to contact Dave and get a premium membership.
Please do so before continuing with this thread.
Not selling, just recomending....sorry for any sonfusion.
Wild Weasel wrote:John, if you're going to start selling products here then you'll need to contact Dave and get a premium membership.
Please do so before continuing with this thread.
WW, he is not making or selling these...Sean Truax (funkymonkey58) is.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
This whole thread just seems very promotional.
As for your post in the other thread... remember that new product announcements are ok (and good for the community) so that's why it wasn't locked. If that same thread keeps getting bumped up for promotion though, it will end up locked. Right now it still seems to be an ongoing discussion.
as stated before I am not making nor selling these, just trying to put some good info out there for others whom may be interested. As it stands, it seems like these wont be in production long due to threads like this.....I would hardly consider that promotional. I do appologize for any confusion about that though.
Open and critical discussions are good for any new product like this.
People hash out ideas and experiences and then everyone is free to make a more informed decision. I don't see this thread as being bad in any way.
WW much love, and thanks for clearing everything up for me.
I personally do not see the stiffening out weighing the weight of the bars. Yes a stiffer chassis is always better, but is it really needed on J-body's.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
I have to say, these weigh only 30lbs. max.....If you're concerned about that, I would say take out the seats that don't have *sses in them. There you go, there is more than 30lbs. The amount of chassis stiffening is great, and is worth more than its weight in gold.
I do see where the autocrossers are coming from, as far as being bumped up a class, but I'm not to into that stuff. I do the occasional parking lot autocross (not swerving between parked cars, actual organised autocross) that they dont really check that stuff.
But as far as street driving, you will be amazed, I can take whatever turn, and feel 10x more stable, at twice the speed. Thats the stuff I like, and these DONT disappoint.
They do wonders on Mustangs, that's a unibody construction. Why not a J?
O noes!
mustangs tend to need them because of the twisting force applied to the chassis by the torque of the engine, as our engines are transversely mounted, they do not twist the body in such a way. Just get a decent strut/spring combo, sway bars and stb's and you'll be just as well off without going straight to mod. As for wanting these for street use, there should be no situation on the street where you should need anything along these lines, if your driving that hard on the street you'll either lose your licence soon enough so that you wont need them or you'll be dead upside down in a ditch, either way we can be safer driving without you on the streets
I would like a set of these under the following condition. If I like them I will buy them if not I will return them. I would like the chance to give a fair and unbiased review of these.
FORGET GIRLS GONE WILD WE HAVE GOVERNMENT SPENDING GONE WILD!
IamRascal wrote:John Benham wrote:Seriously, if you try them, they really stiffen the suspension up A LOT
The only way to stiffen suspension is springs or coils, and struts.
John Benham wrote:gives you better handling 10x what something like bigger sway bars do.
Swaybars work in a completely different way then these do, they prevent body roll, these are intended to reduce body twist, or torsional flex.
As an avid autocrosser and suspension nut I am here to state that these are fairly worthless on our cars. This is one of those products that does little to nothing to help a car out a unibody car such as a J. These are not the basic building block of a roll-cage they are completely different systems. On a car with a fairly twisty body such as a mustang or camaro it can make a significant by reducing body twist however the J doesn't suffer from this problem.
If your going to spend $250 for bars on a J make them front and rear strut tower braces, which you can get both for less from any jbo dealer.
If you want to buy bracing for a J there are 4 places to put it. The front subframe, rear trailing arms, and front and rear strut towers. All these braces go from left to right across the body of the car.
The best for the rear trailing arm would be an x-brace but most of us avoid that due to autocross rules.
Bingo.
99fireSE wrote:mustangs tend to need them because of the twisting force applied to the chassis by the torque of the engine, as our engines are transversely mounted, they do not twist the body in such a way. Just get a decent strut/spring combo, sway bars and stb's and you'll be just as well off without going straight to mod. As for wanting these for street use, there should be no situation on the street where you should need anything along these lines, if your driving that hard on the street you'll either lose your licence soon enough so that you wont need them or you'll be dead upside down in a ditch, either way we can be safer driving without you on the streets
Bingo.
VanquisherOfTheVariance (Zach) wrote: all over this post.
Everything is pretty much covered here so I will not reiterate.
I look at these "braces" and just roll my eyes. I rank these with the "electric S/C."
If you want to make a impact on structure stiffening use the X pattern brace. In engineering, the triangle is the strongest shape, next being the hexagon. Slapping these these two thin metals with no connection will give no support. Think a A-size bra on D-size boobs.
Judging on those pics, the only thing good for is, it will give you protection from scrapes if your car slammed and now you have a mounting point to jack up your car, like you'll find on a C5-C6 Corvette.
>>>For Sale? Clicky!<<<
-----The orginal Mr.Goodwrench on the JBO since 11/99-----
