In the research I've been doing getting ready to do the suspension on my car, I've come up with an idea. My Z24 is going to be seeing plenty of autocross, and that will be the suspension's designed purpose. However, for rideability I think I've come up with a nice compromise.
Using a set of coilovers and adjustable shocks I can attain an infinite combination of characteristics. Here is my idea; use a softer spring rate (like 1 or 2 steps softer than 'standard' for the coilovers) and tune for appropriate ride height and shock settings for daily driving. The conversion to autocross mode is simple: adjust coilovers, insert spring rubbers, adjust shocks.
Spring rubbers come in varying rates, and it's easy to increase spring rates beyond the next higher spring that you could use. And in terms of handling, in combination with the coilovers, it's incredibly easy to adjust cross-weight (wedge).
Thoughts/Comments?
Your putting way too much thought an effort into the suspension of a J-Body. The car's suspension sucks and your going to be hard pressed to make it worth all this time and moeny your going to be dumping in.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
The money is no different than anyone else with a lowering kit and decent shocks, just an extra $100 for some rubbers. The scales I'm getting aren't just for my car, they have a greater purpose (S-10 drag truck, and the guy that owns the junkyard across the street has a late model stock car).
Time on the other hand, yes I am spending a lot of time on it. But seriously, what's the difference between me spending the time thinking through the suspension than someone doing a custom interior, paint, motor build, etc.?
It's just something that no one I've noticed here has spent much time with other than "yea our stock suspension sucks, but I've got my car lowered anyways" with the exception of the N-body IRS, and the N/W/F body front, no one is bothering to really put any thought behind anything.
Now the question of why I'm even bothering? I don't have the money for a more advanced car to start with, so I'm settling with my car for now. It'd be awesome to have a better platform to start with, but there's only so much I can work with on a government paycheck. Learning how to adjust and tune a McPherson strut and torsion beam suspension will make it easier to transition to a more advanced platform later. There's not as many variables with the stock suspension as opposed to say a double wishbone with coil-over shocks.
Seriously though, how much effort did you put into your car's engine when going for that 14 pounds of boost in your signature? Explain to me how my effort with the suspension is any more worthless than your engine modifications.
I'm not trying to start an argument here, I'm just trying to throw ideas out to other people to broaden their thinking. Take a look at the CG calculation thread I posted a while ago. If people thought a little more about suspension "upgrades" they might realize that there's more to it than just upgrading some bushings and installing a lowering kit.
Mitch Davis wrote:no one is bothering to really put any thought behind anything.
You haven't paid enough attention to us 2nd gen guys
There are at least three of us who have complete custom suspensions thought out and built with the intentions of corner weighting and racing. Shoot me an email and I will send you a link to my latest upgrade when I finish it in a few weeks, as well as some other custom built stuff.
James Cahill wrote:Mitch Davis wrote:no one is bothering to really put any thought behind anything.
You haven't paid enough attention to us 2nd gen guys
Would that stuff be in the 2nd gen forum or buried in this hodge-podge?
Quote:
Seriously though, how much effort did you put into your car's engine when going for that 14 pounds of boost in your signature? Explain to me how my effort with the suspension is any more worthless than your engine modifications.
I think its a great idea... not something that I would do (since mine's a daily driver...)
If I ever retire mine from daily duties, I'll look into this. Keep us updated
Mitch Davis wrote:Seriously though, how much effort did you put into your car's engine when going for that 14 pounds of boost in your signature? Explain to me how my effort with the suspension is any more worthless than your engine modifications.
None. LOL. Motor is 100% stock still.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
First rule of racing: One car for racing, one car for daily driver; not one car for both.
I love telling people that.
here's $50 to help with the foot removale surgery. Heard that gets expensive
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
C.T.S wrote:First rule of racing: One car for racing, one car for daily driver; not one car for both.
i would love to see your rule book then. i disagree with this, my dads friend has a 12 second daily driver camaro, races it every weekend he can. my car, i autox in it and its my daily driver, i have another friend with an s10 with a 350 in it he races the hell out of it too and is driving it right now and its raining. so what rule are you trying to imply then?
Team Vision Racing (aka hypsy) wrote:Your putting way too much thought an effort into the suspension of a J-Body. The car's suspension sucks and your going to be hard pressed to make it worth all this time and moeny your going to be dumping in.
Funny same thing could be said for making a 12 second J-body, but no one is complaining. Whether the interanls are stock or not, how much has all the add on parts cost? Most people do some sort of suspension modification on their cars, this would be an additional, relatively low cost option, to increase the adjustability for the cars. Remember there are more kinds of racing then going fast in a straight line.
Back on topic:
Mitch the idea seems sound, and viable, but I haven't reviewed the rules for autocross recently to the allowability of inserts, the second thing is if they are available for the spring diameter that you are looking at, as well as the rubber durometer to increase the spring rate in the linear way you are looking. Overall I think you best gains, if you are looking for driveabiility, as well as race ability in a cohesive package is to consider the IRS rear end swap that many people have done already as this will net you a slightly better overall package,, but will also kick you into a higher class when auto-xing.
C.T.S wrote:First rule of racing: One car for racing, one car for daily driver; not one car for both.
I agree and disagree with this statement. Autocross is the exception to that rule.
On the rubbers note. I don't belive your going to achieve the effect your looking for. You would be better off using a secondary spring. In which case it would better overall to just get a different set of springs all together and switch them out.
The guys with a good bit of money in their pockets actually have 2 complete sets of struts and springs and will switch them out depending on what their doing.
I know a specific subaru driver who has one set for rallycross and another set for autocross and daily driving.
-Chris
Marchi1 wrote:Mitch the idea seems sound, and viable, but I haven't reviewed the rules for autocross recently to the allowability of inserts
I'd probably have to contact some officiating authority to verify my interpretation, but I think the allowances in SP covered in Section 15.8 Paragraph A would justify rubbers.
"Ride height may only be altered by suspension adjustments, the use of spacing blocks, leaf spring shackles, torsion bar levers, or change or modification of springs or coil spring perches. This does not allow the use of spacers which alter suspension geometry, such as those between the hub carrier and lower suspension arm. Springs must be of the same type as the original (cail, leaf, torsion bar, etc.) and except as noted herein, must use the original spring attachment points. This permits multiple springs, as long as they use the original mount locations. Coil spring perches originall attached to struts or shock absorber bodies may be changed or altered, and their position may be adjustable. Spacers are allowed above or below the spring"
Marchi1 wrote:...Overall I think you best gains, if you are looking for driveabiility, as well as race ability in a cohesive package is to consider the IRS rear end swap that many people have done already as this will net you a slightly better overall package,, but will also kick you into a higher class when auto-xing.
Not to burst your bubble and all, especially since the IRS swap is a nice upgrade...
but if you go that route, you're modifying the suspension geometry, and that will place you in one of the "Modified" classes. Effectively running against the craziest, wildest cars, a lot of which are purpose-built race only cars. I seriously doubt you want to run there if you care ANYTHING at all about being even remotely competitive. (Obviously in Street Modified, I don't stand much of a chance either, but it's not as bad as any of the other modified classes).
My advice would be to go for a middle-road setup maybe. I use a Koni Sport Kit suspension. With the Yelow Koni struts, I can adjust for ride quality vs. stiffness in the struts. The springs might not be absolutely optimal for track day, but at least they don't rattle your teeth out....
Check out the rest of my suspension in my reg. I'm really very happy with it overall. I can tune out most of my car's built-in understeer, so it is pretty nice, plus the adjustability in the struts lets you dial in your car to the way you want to drive it.
If I hadn't done the S/C, I would probably be in one of the Street Touring classes (at the worst one of the Street Prepared classes) instead of Street Modified. If you're just doing suspension, that could prove to be a nice class to run in. As always though, refer to the rules so you know what you can do for a particular class.
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Sleeper style, they don't see it coming that way.
C.T.S wrote:First rule of racing: One car for racing, one car for daily driver; not one car for both.
That has got to be one of the DUMBEST "rules" I have ever heard.
The "real" first rule of racing is this "If you ever wonder about your mental focus and abilities, it's time to pull yourself away for a bit." Followed by "If you ever wonder if your fast enough, your not going fast enough" and then "If you ever wonder if your safe enough, your not."
Those are the first 3 "real" rules of racing from my experiences.
I used to race cars, now I race myself.
5K PB: 24:50
10K PB: 54:26
Mitch Davis wrote:James Cahill wrote:Mitch Davis wrote:no one is bothering to really put any thought behind anything.
You haven't paid enough attention to us 2nd gen guys
Would that stuff be in the 2nd gen forum or buried in this hodge-podge?
Some of its here, but most of it is on
www.v6z24.com in the suspension forum. And some of it hasn't even hit the boards yet its so new.
squisher00z24 wrote:but if you go that route, you're modifying the suspension geometry, and that will place you in one of the "Modified" classes. Effectively running against the craziest, wildest cars, a lot of which are purpose-built race only cars. I seriously doubt you want to run there if you care ANYTHING at all about being even remotely competitive. (Obviously in Street Modified, I don't stand much of a chance either, but it's not as bad as any of the other modified classes).
The IRS swap would actually put you in XP (provided any other mods would be legal for that class), since its still a roadgoing vehicle, and XP allows for any type of suspension.
First real rule of racing:
SPEED costs MONEY, How fast do you want to go?
C.T.S wrote:First rule of racing: One car for racing, one car for daily driver; not one car for both.
*places rule on the floor, picks up excessively large sledge hammer and takes a swing*
I have broken that rule so many times... And I still break that rule about every other paycheck when I buy something else to make my daily driver go just a little quicker.
