I need to find all the engine bay body/earth ground points on a 93 2.2.... i havent looked for them all yet, but just incase i miss any it would be nice to know where they all are.
i know if the one next to the battery, behind the battery, the one on the opposite side of the car = to that of the one behind the battery
im having a ground issue somewhere (affecting starting and charging, headlights, door chime... a bunch of other stuff... but not affecting the radio, horn, and bunch of other stuff) so instead of tearing through and replacing all the grounds, im making a custom hyper ground ...
Thanks for any assistance
Custom hyperground?? Please tell me you are not going to spend a bunch of extra money for wire.
There are grounds all over the car. The main one is from your battery to engine block, and then there is a copper strap from the engineblock to the body.
I doubt its a ground issue. Check the connections at the starter and make sure they are all free of corrosion and tight, and check the fusable links there. This is where the car draws all of its power from, except for the ECM which is connected right to the battery.
pezed wrote:Custom hyperground?? Please tell me you are not going to spend a bunch of extra money for wire.
There are grounds all over the car. The main one is from your battery to engine block, and then there is a copper strap from the engineblock to the body.
I doubt its a ground issue. Check the connections at the starter and make sure they are all free of corrosion and tight, and check the fusable links there. This is where the car draws all of its power from, except for the ECM which is connected right to the battery.
Well i've had two electrical shops tell me to check/replace all grounds
What happens is... when the car is cold... one of two things happen
1) the car starts up (usually getting the alternator light the first start up, and 10.5 on the volt guage.... after immediate restart, the alternator light goes out, and it shoots up to 14 on the guage) (The alternator was replaced today, 200 AMP Delco) [most of the time this happens]
2) The starter clicks, the key chime will beep until i try to turn headlights on, or interior light on... if i turn either of them on the chime abruptly stops, i have no dash lights, no interior light, no headlights. once i turn them back off, the chime starts up again. However now, the radio, which is powered with factory wiring, works fine throughout ..... if i turn the key off and on several times, it eventually starts up and everything is fine
Ive replaced the ignition starter switch... the problem doesnt happen as frequent, but still happens. I dont think the lock cylander could be causing this (and i'll be damned if it is cause thats like a $200 part)
Now when the car is hot (driven for more than 10 minutes) One of three things happen
1) the car starts up (usually getting the alternator light the first start up, and 10.5 on the volt guage.... after immediate restart, the alternator light goes out, and it shoots up to 14 on the guage) (The alternator was replaced today, 200 AMP Delco)
2) The starter clicks, the key chime will beep until i try to turn headlights on, or interior light on... if i turn either of them on the chime abruptly stops, i have no dash lights, no interior light, no headlights. once i turn them back off, the chime starts up again. if i turn the key off and on several times, it eventually starts up and everything is fine
3) [MOST LIKELY TO HAPPEN] The starter doesnt make a sound... nothing... all electronics in the car work fine though... if i use the transmission dipstick and cross the two terminals on the starter solenoid... the car starts right up... i know the starter is good...
So ive replaced the starter switch
The Alternator is good
The Starter is Good
The Battery (Optima Red Top) was tested Good
Now heres the next odd twist. When the starter isnt doing anything unless having the terminals crossed, if i hook a battery charger up to the battery and put 40 Amps to it... no matter what the car starts right up.... Now my haynes manual says the only thing in between the Ignition Starter switch and the Starter S terminal wire is the Park/Neutral Safety Switch.... i dont see how pushing 40 amps on top of the battery would make that switch work if it were bad... ive tried shifting through the gears, and it doesnt start with the key untill it cools (which takes a good while)
All the connections on the starter are good, and no corrosion is on the starter... or any of the wires going to it. Same with the battery terminals... and i run 8 guage from the alternator to the starter because the the alternator burned up the factory 10 guage (the alternator shop that built my alternator installed that)
So instead of tearing apart my car to find the factory grounds... i want to match all the body grounds, and ground the chassis ground bolts on the starter and alternator, and since im doing all that, i might as well run one to the block...
I can get all the wires and terminals for about 15 bucks from my shop's distributer... i just need to know where all the body grounds are so i can measure lengths
Hi Kyle
interesting !!
Things that got my attention as I read through:-
Got to agree with pezed
{All the connections on the starter are good, and no corrosion is on the starter... or any of the wires going to it. Same with the battery terminals... and i run 8 guage from the alternator to the starter because the the alternator burned up the factory 10 guage (the alternator shop that built my alternator installed that}
From my Haynes I see that one power distribution Red is directly from the Battery.
The other is through the 16GA Rust fusible link.
Is this fusible link OK and does it need uprating if the cable needed uprating?
From the table in the link it would seem that 1AWG cable would be good here or at least double up the 8 ga wires? Was the wire size increased either side of the Fusible link?
Increasing the wire size from 10 to 8 has only increased the current carrying capacity to 73 amps-by 18Amps!
The alternator would not be working on the first starts with only 10.5 Volts showing-hence light on correctly, usually this is about 12.5 volts (even on my tractor with Cav ,93 alternator) without even an Optima so it looks as if there is a heavy load or a bad connection in the high current cables.
Are the Optima battery terminals at 12 plus Volts when you read the 10.5 volts or has the battery dropped to that?
Did the problem occur before the new alternator was fitted?
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
The only times I have personally come across the charging-40 amps to it -is when later I have discovered a bad connection it is like the charge improves the connection some how.
I know this is not a real answer but it may jog someone's memory to help you out
Good luck
Alont
alont wrote:
The other is through the 16GA Rust fusible link.
Is this fusible link OK and does it need uprating if the cable needed uprating?
Hrmm its got some thick plastic around it for 16 gauge... well then the 16 was upgraded to 8... as for the fusible link... when the alternator burned that wire, The alternator shop ripped it out and put a solid 8 guage from the alternator directly to the starter
Quote:
From the table in the link it would seem that 1AWG cable would be good here or at least double up the 8 ga wires? Was the wire size increased either side of the Fusible link?
The fusible link is gone.
Quote:
The alternator would not be working on the first starts with only 10.5 Volts showing-hence light on correctly, usually this is about 12.5 volts (even on my tractor with Cav ,93 alternator) without even an Optima so it looks as if there is a heavy load or a bad connection in the high current cables.
Well my amp/sub can drop the voltage guage down to 10.5 when its hitting and im at a stop light... but no battery light... only when its not charging...
Quote:
Are the Optima battery terminals at 12 plus Volts when you read the 10.5 volts or has the battery dropped to that?
The first time (after the new alternator), at the alternator shop was right after the battery was charged... and actually was reading 12.3 volts and after restart... 14.4 ... the second time ... 10.5 but i had bass going tor maybe 10 -15 seconds....
Quote:
Did the problem occur before the new alternator was fitted?
[\quote]
Ya, once or twice...but they told me that something came loose on the inside and gutted the alternator out
http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm
The only times I have personally come across the charging-40 amps to it -is when later I have discovered a bad connection it is like the charge improves the connection some how. [
Quote:
I know this is not a real answer but it may jog someone's memory to help you out
Good luck
Alont
Morning(here) Kyle
It was late last night so thinking a little more clearly this morning.
So, you have:-
8 gauge direct from alternator to starter
and
Should be 8 gauge from Starter to Battery +ve terminal, if you supply amp from there.
The "Earth" cable to the chassis should be 8 gauge
The "Earth" cable to the engine should also be 8 gauge
This will help to ensure that your alternator circuit, the complete "circuit" , can handle 200 amps.
Madelectrical.com has some good ideas and blocks for high current alternators.
I have also read on some info sites that 4 or 6 gauge should be used to supply the Amp if it is fitted in the trunk but I presume that has all been fitted correctly.
If it is possible just add 8 gauge wires in parallel to the existing engine/chassis earth wires, the more cross sectional wire copper area the better.
I tend to think the no charge at first start is either a bad connection or a plain alternator fault as the alternator should come on line anyway?
Good luck and please kep us posted
Alont
alont wrote:Hi again Kyle
check this link for an ideal setup, it retains a fuse ----300 amps! -- and the alternator is earthed separately.
http://www.sounddomain.com/ride/212190/2
Alont
Ya it needs 300 amps... mine peaks out around 200 ... My 0 Gauge wire running to my bass amp has a 300 amp fuse.
I've replaced the battery cable... the replacement i beleive was 4 guage but i could be wrong...
Thanks for your advice... i think i found all the chasis grounds so i'll let ya know what happens...
On the subject... James Cahill suggested i test out my ICM. so im going to do that too...
Hi Kyle
If you can bear to be without it for a while--- what happens if the O ga cable is disconnected at the supply and you are not feeding your amp at all?
Does it make no difference or does the rest of the electrical circuits work as advertised?
Just thinking that by introducing the 40 amp charge you are boosting the battery enough for it to start, but with the amp dropping the voltage to 10.5 volts before you attempt to start the battery voltage is too low?
Alont
alont wrote:
If you can bear to be without it for a while--- what happens if the O ga cable is disconnected at the supply and you are not feeding your amp at all?
Does it make no difference or does the rest of the electrical circuits work as advertised?
Just thinking that by introducing the 40 amp charge you are boosting the battery enough for it to start, but with the amp dropping the voltage to 10.5 volts before you attempt to start the battery voltage is too low?
The starter did this before i ran the 0 guage...
it hit 10.5 volts after it started with no alternator, or when i was at a stop light with bass pounding.
for the past day or two... the problem has seemed to stop... or lighten up .... i was at the point where i'd make the 15 minute drive to work... and then the car had to sit for at least 2 hours before i could start it with the key.... now i can drive to work, to the bank, and back to work... and its starting everytime... and only every once and a while the alternator doesnt kick in on start up...
i havent done anything between the last time i had the problem and now... unless i had to break in the new starter switch...
aside from everything else, it sounds like the solenoid is sticking on the starter, and the extra 40 amps helps to push the plunger all the way down. try tapping on it with a hammer or mallett or wrench lightly after its hot. then try to restart, and see what you get. This could be a bad battery cable, bad ground, etc... i'd suggest going to autozone and getting one of those braided steel grounds and go from an engine to tranny bolt right to the chassis mount where the ground wire is on the battery, and put some terminal corrosion preventative on that. that should ground the block, the battery, and the chassis solidly.
the only way to know if theres a fault in your safety circuit is to test for 12v on the 'runt' terminal on the starter (you know, the one with the small purple wire) i believe the safety switch wiring is the same as a 'vert, yellow wire going in from the ignition switch to the safety switch, and purple goes to the starter its self (from safety switch) -- you can probably find that either under teh center console or under the hood near the shifter mechanism (never had an auto, dont know)... on the manuals its right near where the clutch pedal could be , for all i know theres a connector THERE that may be loose that the auto harness plugs into.
Cheers,
-- Lee
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