just wondering how hard it would be to swap a manual trans into a factory auto Sunbird 1.8
mainly if any cutting or welding would be needed and where, also what i would need from the parts car
btw anyone know a way to remove the factory steering wheel ? i tried useing a harbor freight puller and it just broke, the second gen wheel pulled off with very little effort, any special trick to it ?
You will need the factory manual body mounts the the engine mounts to for a manual car and the metal mounts the engine mounts bolt to on the engine. You will need to find at least a bell housing for a manual transmission from a over head can engine since they are different from ohv, v6, and Dohc. You will need a manual tranny that bolts to what ever bell housing you find, Muncie, Isuzu, getrag. You will need cv axles, shifter, shifter cables, possibly a jackshaft, clutch peddle and master/ slave cylinder. Also need a brake pedal. It is a straight forward swap I did it but mine was a v6 which made it easier. you will also need the EPROM from a manual computer.
Check v6z24.com for more info as the specialize in early jbodies.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Mark-
I rented a puller from O'Rielly and had no problem. What computer does your car have in it now?
From the library since I still have no power at home...could take until sunday, but I think I'll have it today since I saw crews in the area last night.
I just pulled mine and put on a Grant GT wheel.
I used the Grant brand puller, got it from Amazon for less than $10.
For the big center nut, I used an X style lug wrench.
The job took me four hours, but now that I know what I'm doing, I'd say I could replace one in an hour or less. Really had no idea what I was doing, and the instructions were extra confusing since there were three sheets all telling me different things because I had the wheel instructions (2 sheets), and an adapter kit (1 sheet). I also had no idea how to use a wheel puller, and after using one, I think it should be called a wheel pusher. I had to keep going inside and watching YouTube vids and reading about changing a wheel, but got it all done myself!
i'll check into the grant puller thanks, the car should have the factory 1.8 tbi computer in it now, i can get a 1986(i think) grand am 1.8 for all the manual trans components if they would interchange onto a sunbird, car runs and everything works its just rusted badly so would be good for the parts
you would have to try it. I never heard of anyone using manual parts from a grand am. Axles are probably different. It is probably easy to make everything else work, You will probably need custom mounts for the transmission. You will need to find a manual jbody with 1.8 or 2.0 OHC for the metal body mounts and metal Engine brackets. If you do not get them you will break axles. I made that mistake when I missed swapping my rear body mount. The body and engine mounts will say Auto or Manual on them. They have different angles then Auto ones. I went through 3 axles till I made my mistake and that was just on a slow pull out of my drive way.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
I have been Looking for a donor 4 cyl manual 1st gen Cav for 4 months now and I have not found anything for under 2 Grand. I never even thought about the body to engine mounts.
How about the hydraulics from a 2nd gen? Will they bolt up to an 84 Cav, as those manuals were cable clutches? Good info here!
Probably need to grab a 2nd gen tranny. They came with 1.8 and 2.0 ohc. Manual transmissions come with interchangeable bell housings. As long as you can find a 5 speed tranny from v6 just get the bellhousing for a ohc with the same make tranny and swap them. Also It is body mount to engine mount, and engine mount to engine brackets. that you need. 2 different items. They go on the passenger side from the car to the engine mount, then from the engine mount to the engine. You need both of them as well as the one from the front that goes to the engine mount near the radiator to the engine. The other rubber engine mounts should be pretty much the same as factor so you should be able to use auto ones as manual ones are just a little stiffer. I suggest buying polyurethane and filling them yourself. It is $35 a pint I think and you can do 2 or 3 mounts with it. You will also need the tranny bracket that bolts to the the bottom of the tranny and connects to the dogbone mount.
When I did my swap I grabbed an HM282 tranny from a 92 since it had a 5 speed overdrive. I also have a digital cluster so I didn't have to worry about splitting the case and changing a reluctor gear to use a cable driven setup. You would get a lot more help and some better information from v6z24.com since I am not as familiar with 1st gens as I am 2nd gens, and also not as familiar with the OHC as the ones I have dealt with were mechanical nightmares and were very unreliable.. The cars are 95% the same just a few small changes. I do believe you will be happier with a 5 speed from a 2nd gen, you just need to do a lot of research. I should have given you 90% of the info you need. Also if you want you can change your drivers side subframe, I didnt but the manual ones have a little bump stop to stop the tranny from rocking to far but if it did rock that far the engine would be through the firewall so I didn't bother swapping mine.
Manual ECU/ Eprom
CV axles
Rear Metal body mount
Rear Engine bracket
Front Engine bracket
Tranny
Tranny bracket to dogbone
Shifter
Master/ slave cylinder
Clutch/ flywheel
Clutch pedal
Brake Pedal
Jackshaft if you want one
This would also be a good time to put all poly bushings on your suspension and upgrade sway bars to z24 ones and put a subframe connector and strut bar on. Cost you probably under $100 for all that and drastically improve your handling.
http://www.v6z24.com/howto/5spdswap
There is the tutorial I used as a guide when I did mine a few years ago.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Rob Dotterer wrote:Manual transmissions come with interchangeable bell housings. As long as you can find a 5 speed tranny from v6 just get the bellhousing for a ohc with the same make tranny and swap them.
No.
The OHC uses a totally different transmission from everything else. They had an Isuzu transmission (I don't know the RPO offhand), and even though the Isuzu was available behind the LN2 (MK7 trans), swapping the bellhousing is not possible, since the Isuzu trans is not designed that way. The HM-282 wasn't used until 1986, and even then, it only came behind the V6s. None of the V6 stuff is interchangeable with the Isuzu trannys, including the jackshaft. Even the Muncie 4 spd isn't useable, since it was never behind the OHCs. Basically, there was never an HM-282 behind an OHC.
It really isn't possible to cross the line between OHC and any of the OHV engines when it comes to trannys (except the actual shifter, clutch pedal and flywheel). If you want to swap, you need to swap from another OHC car.
Everything is needed- trans, axles, brackets, cables, clutch setup.
.
Not to say you are wrong Cahill, you may be absolutly correct. I had found an old post on v6z24 from slowolej stating that all ohc and v6s share the same manual transmission just not the bell housing. They had slightly different gear rations but were the same tranny.
"
Daewoo uses 4T40E auto trans. Conversion to electronic tranny may be possible if auto trans desired. Sunbird turbo uses Muncie / Getrag trans with numerically higher 2nd gear ratio. OHC Bellhousing can be swapped onto same trans family from V6 or Quad 4 cars. Gear ratios vary between Q4 and V6 trans. Isuzu trans can be built stronger. Some different gearing available. Isuzu trans in Isuzu cars use stronger spiders and some better components. Geo Storm w/DOHC was one car using stronger version of Isuzu trans. Google "isuzu 5 speed spiders" and you'll find some info."
Slowolej
http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyforum/2-0l-ohc-5-speed-transmission-information-needed-please-t113642.html
I do not know if that info is correct, the post is 3 years old and I never had a manual tranny from an OHC engine, but that post if filled with transmission information.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Well then. I stand corrected, but after I looked around to back that stuff up, I found that the OHC only had the HM282 in 1987 as the optional 5 spd, whereas the base trans was still the Isuzu 4 spd (still not case swappable). That is news to me, since all the info I've ever seen puts the Isuzu behind the OHC.
The info is still good, considering the trans in question is 20 yrs old, and the post is only 3 yrs old. Shannen is one of the top dogs when it comes to the OHC, and the last time we hung out, I got completely lost with all the info he threw at me.
So, a housing swap would be possible, but you would be hard pressed to find an intact 1987 5 spd HM282 (MG1) just to swap the V6 guts to. It would be easier and cheaper to find an Isuzu 4 spd.
.
finding the parts isn't a problem like i mentioned in the post above i have a whole other car, checked it today its a 5speed ovc engine, the only problem (for me ) would be the body mods required to make it work, are we 100% sure the existing engine mounts on the body wont work ? i may just end up just fixing the 5speed car if its too much since the only issue with that is the rust...
I can not tell you for sure for the OHC engines. For the v6s and Ohv yes. Almost all cars use different body mounts for auto vs manual from what I have been reading. You could always try and make your own. As long as you have the axles at the correct angle you should be able to design your own. Maybe you can get some off rock auto.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
http://www.newgmparts.com/parts/1989/CHEVROLET/CAVALIER/Z24/?siteid=213815&vehicleid=1037933&diagram=CL88086
If you go there and look at part 5, that is what you need but for a 4cyl. Type in you make and model and year car and look for the ENGINE / ENGINE / TRANSAXLE / ENGINE MOUNTING / Mount bracket. Compare the part number form auto to manual. Atleast you will have a part number to reference. Also look for part 3 and 4. Make sure they are different for auto and manual. If they are then you will have to find them or make them.
[ 3 ] ENGINE / ENGINE / TRANSAXLE / ENGINE MOUNTING / Mount bracket
[ 4 ] ENGINE / ENGINE / TRANSAXLE / ENGINE MOUNTING / Mount bracket
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
ah, ok i think i understand now, i need all the removable mounting brackets/ rubber parts, all that. the actual parts welded to the engine bay are fine and stay as they are, right ?
You just need the parts that are removable. I don't think you would need any rubber mounts. Your auto ones should be the same. The only difference should be the stiffness of the rubber inside. Like I said before I would just fill your stock mounts with poly.
http://importnut.net/motormount.htm
I kept the factory rubber in mine when I did it. Some people remove there's but mine was in good shape and I used a very stiff poly. You can look around at different sites if you want to make your own. They will outlast any OEM replacement.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
well thats great, i should be able to do it then
thanks for all the info
well the swap has been started, the dash is out of both cars and the 1.8 engine is almost out. turns out the grand am is actually a 2.5 so i will just be using the entire engine and transmission in the Sunbird, and wiring harness since i found quite a few differences between the two, mainly my cable driven speedometer would no longer work plus some other things mine was missing, now making it all look nice will be another project all together since i have to fit a grand am gauge cluster and wiper controls in the dash...
2.5l Iron duke? Isn't that a downgrade from you 1.8 ohc? If your going through all the trouble I would get a v6 or a better 4cyl lol. That is a lot of work for an engine that was discontinued in 88 I believe. Also with that transmission you can probably get your speedo to work by splitting the case and changing the rector wheel.
On the inside my car looks like a fighter jet.
Howdy!
I wish I knew when the Muncie trans was turned into the Getrag trans. I always considered them the same like a '60 Chevy smallblock is the same as a '98 version but really there are enough differences that it's worth knowing.
I don't have much info on the turbo 1.8 but I believe it was equipped with a Muncie 4 speed. If I really needed to know I'd start hanging out on the Fiero forums and maybe try to get motorman377 from this site to talk to me. In '87 the turbo 2.0 was released with the HM282 and it continued to have some version of this trans until it was stopped in '91. The turbo 2.0 Grand Am would have the same trans as a turbo Sunbird from the same year.
When I say the bellhousings can be swapped I meant that the trans case can be split, and the front cover with bellhousing can be installed on a different trans. The quoted post was just an illustration of what was possible, not a description of how much work was involved.
I wouldn't be afraid to use an Isuzu trans behind a mild 4 cylinder. I used one in the 93 VL turbo car for many miles. The car had almost 300k when it went to the junkyard for rust and the trans still worked.
I hate to give facepalms but swapping in a stock 2.5 almost deserves it. That engine is not an iron Duke, it's maybe a second cousin which is what.. an Earl? If it's a TBI version it's like a broke Earl that sponges off family. Do what you gotta do but it's not a real strong engine by any means. If it is a TBI version do yourself a favor and check / change the timing gears while the engine is out. Or you'll probably be doing the engine pull again.
84conv, it's been years since I owned my first gen and I just can't remember the clutch configuration. There was an auto takeup device in the clutch pedal that was kind of large though. My hunch is that swapping in a later 5 speed would be easiest with the pedals, linkage, and hydraulics from the later car but that doesn't mean there won't be clearance issues with wiring, hoses, or other parts on the firewall. So much was consistent across these cars that we take parts swapping for granted but in this case it's probably a good idea to have all the parts in hand to plan the swap before making any changes.
Quote:
The info is still good, considering the trans in question is 20 yrs old, and the post is only 3 yrs old. Shannen is one of the top dogs when it comes to the OHC, and the last time we hung out, I got completely lost with all the info he threw at me.
Hahaha... the way I remember it, the last time we hung out I had to be careful where I stood so I didn't get shot. You know, my ears still ring to this day?
Yay- Shannen is back
I am pretty sure Alan told me at one point that my 84 had the muncie. I have the 4 speed manual, pretty sure it is the one from the Citation. It was real fun to find a safety switch for that one. I was considering going to a 5 to try and boost fuel economy at one point.
Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_Iron_Duke_engine
Lots of guys born before man visited the moon seem to remember the
Chevy 153 four cylinder as the Iron Duke. I'm one of them. The internet doesn't seem to know for certain. There are people in both camps but no one seems to point to anything officially naming either engine. There's a good case that the name comes from GM marketing when the Vega / Astre platform lost a problematic aluminum 2.3l four cylinder engine in favor of the new 2.5 liter (err... 141 ci) iron version. "Iron" in Iron Duke refers to the material of the new engine and "Duke" is a term of old royalty. The whole thing makes customers think good, strong, reliable, long lasting thoughts as they're plunking down cash for a car that was rusting as it sat on the showroom floor. This
77 Astre sales brochure is excited about the new engine but doesn't call it the Iron Duke. Same for the '78 Sales brochure which includes
The new Sunbird. There's no mention of the marketing term in my "Standard Catalog of Pontiac" by John Gunnell (another J body owner, BTW) but he does say the "iron Duke" is all new in '77 in "75 Years of Pontiac [The Official History]".
Flipping over to "75 years of Chevrolet" there's some excitement in 1962 at the first Chevrolet built four cylinder since the '20s but the engine is unnamed. I have viewed every available version of Chevy 2 / Nova sales brochure
Chevrolet Sales Brochures from the time the 153 was introduced in 62 until '68 and the engine uses the name "Super Thrift" through the entire run.
At this point I'm wondering where the name actually came from. The Wiki article does a great job describing the Pontiac four cylinder but it doesn't cite a reference for the name, either. If GM or Pontiac named the engine "Iron Duke" then I would expect it to show up in a sales brochure or sales literature. It's probably from a magazine article somewhere which means good luck finding it. I'll refrain from pointing out any discrepancies again until I know where the name comes from. Until I see otherwise, however, the Iron Duke is the Chevrolet engine in my book.
