Ok - had a bad day :-(

Started out easy enough - I swapped in a newer steering wheel on my '84 'Sunbird. These came out of Pontiac 6000's & Grand Am's.
They are a direct fit, if anyone cares to do one.



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And just a little FYI on the steering wheels - these are direct fits on 1st gens. That extra center cap in the right hand steering wheel
came out of a venerable Pontiac T1000 (Chevette), and fit right on the rally steering wheel


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Of course, I wanted to take the Pontiac for a spin, see how the new steering wheel felt. Headed out for a nice little 25 mile scoot.
Out on the highway at speed, about 10 miles out, and without any warning whatsoever - she died. I did what everyone does when the power dropped - LoL - stepped harder on the throttle -had the most awful smell as the speed dropped off , had no clue at this time what had happened - but suspected fuel pump failure. Didn't see a wet butterfly at the throttle-body - but of course the engine was hot.
Nothing to do but drag it home!! $50 to get her home.



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Once I get it in the garage - the testing began. Grab a can of starting fluid-get the ole lady to crank, and well I'll be darned - the injector is squirting fuel. Well, that's good news, I thought - probably the shaking of the car on the rollback might have caused that pump to work a little. Further cranking and no start. Next is check the spark - AHAA - No spark. Now I'm getting somewhere. It then occurred to me regarding that awful smell I had experienced? I bet it was the gas the injector poured down the throttle body when I tromped on the throttle. That raw fuel went right on down to the HOT cat converter - and I bet that is what produced that awful smell.

Now is a REALLY good time to lift my hat and give Paul a HEARTY Thank-You for encouraging me to get that Pontiac shop manual!!
Start digging in there and find the troubleshoot list for the ignition system. I thought the coil was a no go right off the bat because there have been some complaints on here about those coils going bad, but a few minutes with the multimeter and the shop manual told me it should be good. Finally after a few tricky procedures I discovered it was the Ignition Control Module. Now a little bit of FYI as I had brought home a distributor off of an '87 Firenza w/2.0 OHC.. The distributor wiring is different - no swap, but inside that distributor the Ignition Control Module - IS swappable. A few tense minutes and fingers crossed ... the old Sunbird started right up!! :-)



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So this little bugger above WILL lay you up.....and without a moments notice. If anyone has been following my post over time they'll remember I was experiencing a mis-fire upon startup, (lasting for about 1 minute) for quite some time. Lately, tho that misfire had disappeared. And the next time I have a power failure at speed - and I smell an awful smell - I'll know I'm getting fuel!!

I have a couple of questions to everyone out here. Has anyone else had this experience? Is there any other problems that could lead to a Ignition Control Module failure? Sometimes - something going bad will cause something else to burn out. Sure do appreciate any input. And anyone else out there experiencing a no - spark event can look to this module as one cause.


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As far as I’ve always known, these pieces were always the fatal flaw of the system and there is no way to know ahead of time.

Last year I replaced probably everything in the ignition system, which was something I wanted to do since buying the car anyway, but I was trying to chase down a different problem with backfiring at the time.

I know of a few people left stranded by that part, and there really isn’t any way around it. Whenever a car dies like that with no warning, the ICM is the first thing I think about. I’ve thought of carrying a spare, but never do; and I’ve thought about replacing every 100,000 miles, but let’s face it, the next one could be defective or bad in 20,000 while the old one could go another 500,000 miles.

Since I know I’m the guy with the least amount of knowledge on this board, let the corrections and other possible causes of sudden loss of power begin…

:p

Thanks for the info Wayne!! :-)
What all did you end up replacing, if I might ask? Did you end up replacing the distributor too?
Did you get rid of your backfire issue?

I got some more information today from a coworker that has spent many years turning wrenches.

He informed me that a weak coil will cause that ICM to go poof. Seems it overworks the ICM when the coil is weak. I'm thinking this probably cause a cascading effect as time goes by if not corrected. My helpful coworker recommended Federated electronic parts - said he's had better luck with them. Since I'm planning on keeping my J's a good long time I'm planning on going this route. First project will definately be a NEW coil before it is run anymore, followed by a new ICM next payday as weel for good measure. I might add , that while the starter on the 1.8 OHC is a real nightmare , I appreciate the coil location on that engine compared to the one underneath the intake manifold next to the distributor on the 2.0 OHV.

There have been others having ignition issues as well. If you are having such issues, my first advice would be to spend $60 and get you a new coil and ICM! I think you'll be glad you did


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Well I see you had some nerving going on.This is wayyyyy old news to me.I so totally replaced my ICM and coil on my 2.0ohv like back in 08.I did this when I yanked out my intake,repaint block and get this TO remove my intake I HAVE to take the distributor OUT.So with upgrading every sensor on the car,I decided time for a new coil and icm and yeah mounted the coil is somewhat tedious but it is brand new.Mine never had issues but just with age and def old I did out of good common sense to prevent failure.I know ICM can give subtle hints hard starts,or even no start but then start two minutes later and OR power drops off the face of the planet and dies like faulty coil,or bad battery.IT is a quirky part and symptoms vary from rolling down the road to just trying to crank it.They can be intermittent on said failure due to age,heat,cold crappy contact etc.Hope my little share may or may not help.That is what comes to mind.So today I started my research of parts for TBI rebuild vid and finding what info on parts is TO date and getting that together so when I get my spare ready to illustrate in a speedy fashon I will have all this available.I have all my old parts and rechecking #s and cost.Because ironically I need to buy some things for the rebuild.

OK, now everyone gets to know how bad I am…

Had some issues here and there, replaced things as I had the money to do it, but because of the issues, I had to rob Peter to pay Paul to get the money to just get it all done. I only had the car three years; you think I would’ve been able to get to some of this.

I replaced the plugs, wires, coil, cap, rotor, ICM. Yeah, everything but the timing belt. I would be driving the car and suddenly it would backfire or I would have a sudden moment where there would just be no power, a backfire and back to power again.

I could mostly tell when it was going to happen, and could let off the gas a while and coast and then get back on the gas and all would be fine.

My local mechanic, who admits he is not good at diagnosis, couldn’t figure it out. I’m sure Ron was up nights wondering what could possibly be wrong with my car. I talked to Motorman about it while he was spending the winter in Florida. Nobody could figure out what was wrong, and I just figured I’d have to wait for $300 to come my way to get the timing belt done.

I finally had the $300 last July and my water heater and computer died the same day. Was wonderful not being able to go online and learn how to replace a water heater.

Lucky for me my sister-in-law started dating a mechanic, and he came to help me with the timing belt. I wasn’t comfortable doing that job myself. I’m good with concepts, but actual work is difficult for me. I just don’t have that part of the male DNA.

While doing the timing belt, I mentioned I had trouble getting the heat shield back on the (sorry don’t remember which end is which right now) #1 or #4 plug (passenger side of the 1.8). I asked him if it was just maybe the insulation on a 2010 spark plug wire vs. a 1985 wire. He pulled it off and noticed my plug was waaaaaaaaay out of the head!

I cross-threaded the plug when I put it in and after about 5000 miles of driving it worked itself out pretty far, causing a loss of compression and that wonderful backfire!

Been driving the Hawk again daily since December and my daily commute is much nicer now!

Glad Orlen brought this up, even though it was no fun for him. I never had any issues with the ICM on any of the J body’s I have ever driven new or old. So now I know one of the things to look for if I ever end up stranded on the side of the road or experience the warning signs.

Thanks for the read, Wayne!! And give yourself some credit there - if you were really bad at keeping your Hawk on the road, she'd long been gone by now. Sounds like you are still driving and smiling :-) I drive mine daily too. It's cool riding around in something not-so-looking-alike everything else out there.

I just Love a story with a happy ending!! :-)

You never know about that crossed plug there, that not-so-good mechanic might have been in there at one time or another -and....and....well, maybe didn't want to tell ya...LoL Your story does tell of the durability and forgiveness of those old Brazil 1.8's. And how about a cheap fix for you, gotta appreciate that about these 1st gens!! Many years ago if memory serves, I think a stuck EGR valves can cause a lot of backfiring - those aren't-so-cheap!!It sure was a lot better for ya, than your water heater & computer though.

Great to hear you drivin' a Hawk!! Don't see or hear of many of those -these days. I think I've seen 1 here locally, and it is one of the late ones from the looks of it.

It amazes me that I've had my old wagon since '02 and have been so fortunate to not have run into this!! The parts are very reasonable too - about $50 for coil&ICM for each one that I have. Just a little FYI - both the coils and ICM's are specific to the OHC & OHV engines. Can't just get one ICM and keep it for a spare for both......Darn. I run into the most interesting little tidbits like that , since I've got both versions. I think so far about the only thing I've run into that might be shared between the 2 might be the throttle bodies.

Anyways got the 1.8's coil on the way and plan on installing it tomorrow. Afraid to go for a scoot till I get that replaced right now. Next payday, I'll get a new ICM for it! :-)


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Ok a touch of information about the EGR.Mine gave me signals when it was going kinda choking out,not so much losing power just would studder and smooth out.Now the easy test to see if your EGR is failing when you have some crazy symptoms is simple disconnect the vacumm line going to it.Car should run better bc the diaphram inside either is loosing vacumm or the pintal that moves up and down is sticking due to carbon build up.Typically failures of said part are one of these two items and disconnecting the vacumm just by passes the egr and soley will maybe drop ur mpgs and car will run fine till you buy a new one.I recall mine cost like 50.00 on memory.I got it at napa.Hope this is elaborate enough and simple diagnostic to figure it out.Now you can remove it clean it with carb cleaner and a tooth brush and even a good small cordless brush super small to get into the best you can to clear out the gook built up.Mine had some gook but the rubber inside sealed that you cannot see was losing vacumm causing my problem.

To be fair to that mechanic I go to, his mistake was in trusting my work. I and everyone else that looked at it made the same error.

If it happened right after changing the plugs and wires, I would’ve been thinking defective wires and pulled them off and found the plug problem. But after driving about 5000 miles, that possibility was just never considered.

I also knew it wasn’t the EGR because Ron told me to disconnect it.

The car was mostly off the road for about a year because of that issue.

Got the Coil today, and the install was a breeze. ....a what? You fellow OHV owners ask? I fully understand & feel your pain folks!! I have a small show & tell for the both sides to see. As all OHV owners well know, just finding the coil is the beginning to a long frustrating ordeal. Buried UNDER the intake and blocked by the distributor - this beast is a disaster in design. It is on par with the OHC starter design - you just gotta ask "why on earth???"
So, here is the location of the OHC coil - (OHV owner please try not to drool :-O)
Secured by one bolt & one nut (arrows) , the hardest part is removing the air cleaner assembly!


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Here is a neat comparison of the OHV & OHC coils side by side. (OHV is on left)


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Now this part might finally make the poor OHV owner break down. After all the trouble to find that coil. all the troubles to remove that darn thing , they got to cut off the pins holding this mess together before they can even replace the coil to the mount. Here, on the OHC design - 4 5.5mm bolts and the coil comes right off the mount, and right back together.....I know OHV'ers....it just isn't fair, is it!! And after all you've gone through, now you got to fit this darn thing back up under the intak manifold!! CURSES!!



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I'll add more picts when I get to cursing....er...uh, installing one in my OHV wagon ...LoL

After replacing the coil, took the Pontiac for a spin. Ran just fine! Had some miss and one light backfire at VERY hard throttle at high RPM on an incline. The miss was there before, but not as prominent now. I rarely run this old gal hard like that -this 28 year old car gets babied! I'm very pleased with the result, and feel more secure when I go for a drive now too :-)


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I have grabbed a few spare distributors and ICMs off of OHC cars. Mine failed and it was a bugger to diagnose. Only failed on hot days after driving about 20 miles. Spent a lot that summer in towing. ICM was it. I am trying to remember the CEL code. Man I was mad at the time. Thats when I bought the inline spark tester that has been in my tool box ever since.

Paul,

Got an inline tester last year at your suggestion and I forgot I had until now. It will come in handy on the Cimarron!

Ha,ha orlen I wondered if you find doing the OHV coil real fun with those um permenant pins.I drilled mine out and went to lowes and got small fine thread screws with nuts.Kinda annoying but,once done removal is a breeze if needed.I rolled my eyes we I did my intake job,blown out of control engine restore job.Good fun right.So you have both easy and not so easy as you know.Nice pics too .

Mini update.....

Drove the 'bird to work today for first time today since ICM crapped out .

The smile I get driving this ole Bird is coming back to me again!! :-)

Thanks for the write up guys - definately a good read.

I was drooling when I saw the OHC Coil location. The coil on my turbo is buried below the intake manifold on the back of the engine. I wish it was as easy as the NA OHC pictured.

So what do you guys recommend for a coil replacement for a lightly modded 1.8 turbo?

Mine is ORIGINAL.... No kidding.

I am running I think Gp sorenson or ac delco but I did get it from auto zone with out double checking my receipts.So far it works fine and unless you just want to upgrade to accel or msd which I am not sure if they have those for ours but would think they should (maybe).I run a accel coil on my 87pickup and nice.Your call paul.

On way home from work today (only 6 mile drive one way), the poor ole' Pontiac started missing and backfiring on the highway. Never had these symptoms before. Suspect that old ICM I put on (Only a temporary fix till I get a new one next week) . I doubt, but not an impossibility it could be that new coil I put on. Also, I really need to take my own advice and replace that fuel pump too - the pressure or fuel flow might be fluctuating .
On a good note, the old girl did get me home this time. In fact once off the highway, it behaved itself, and drove normally. But at least I got it home, and I'll keep it there till I replace that ICM. :-)
Will do what we all do...LoL. Keep replacing parts and giving updates till things settle down.



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It might be time to stockpile parts for these gems. Read in Hemmings that even owners of late 80's-mid90's GM pickups are having trouble locating certain parts as GM has discontinued them when they went into bankruptcy. The one certain part the owner was looking for was only available at a dozen dealerships nationwide still or the junkyards. Really makes you think if they stopped making/selling parts for one of the best selling vehicle lines what are possibility of finding parts for rarer cars.

Got my Missing/Backfire issue solved today!! :-)

Had some time today and wound up messing around under the hood of my old Pontiac. Decided to check those plugs and make sure they were nice and tight - I remembered Wayne Schiff sharing his experiences in his earlier post. I figured it wouldn't hurt to check and see. Well, all 4 plugs were nice and snug. I got everything back together and started it up to make sure I'd gotten everything in order.
Thats when I heard arcing going on. Turned the lights off and there it was - the coil was arcing from its' post to nearest ground it could find.



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No doubt I need to get a new wireset. So off I go to get a set at Autozone. $15 bucks and a lifetime warranty is just to easy for my wallet...LoL. Unfortunately it wont get here till Tuesday next week......Everything for my poor old vehicles has to be "special ordered"....does that mean my vehicles are "special"? While I was there I took a look at those little packets of stuff there at the computers they use and noticed:








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Hey...it says "prevents arcing" - ....and boy do I have some serious arcing!! I thought, what the heck gotta wait till next week, wonder what this little $1.29 stuff will do for my worn out stuff?? At any rate, it'll be a really good test, and I really did need some to put under that Ignition Control Module I swapped in a couple of weeks ago.
Well, the stuff really did do the work, folks. I put a good bit on the terminals and the boots and connectors inside the boots on Both ends. Took the distributor cap off and got a real good bit under that ICM. Evertything back together, and started up and no arcing!!
I just had to know, so I dared to go out and take a drive. Wound up driving 30 miles up on the highway and not one miss or backfire!! With old worn out plug wires too!! Coming home there is a particular hill I've always like to walk the dog just to see how things are doing. This time the Pontiac did better than it ever has previously!!
No doubt the ignition is tired and needs new parts. The new hot coil was too much for that old wire-set and I'm sure I'll be replacing it all as I go along. Still, I am blown away from a $1.29 fix, these cars are cheap to work on, but not that cheap....LoL
......maybe....really ....it was just a Gremlin that was hiding in that steering wheel I put on. Maybe? After I installed that steering wheel, he sled down the steering column and sneaked into my engine compartment!! Maybe he just don't like the taste of ole' boot protector goop. If so, I hope he jumped out and ran away!!

Anyways - this is one happy & relieved old dog.... & I'll sleep better tonight


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Haven't read all of the post but just the few initial responses. Hoping you can help me.
It is a 2005 Eco.
After my car was falling on its face on the highway, I stomped on the gas too. Died and got towed.
A week later, new fuel pump and she ran. Been starting rough for a week now and yesterday it wouldn't.. Just keeps cranking.
Ran test, wasn't getting spark. Got used coil + ICM and it got spark back but still just cranking. New spark plugs were put in too.
Other than crank sensor, any other pointers?
Scared of flooding the cylinder with fuel and battery isn't the best either although it holds charge.

These old 1st gens are a world away from the DOHC's of today.
I too, would suspect the crank sensor - they can be dicey. I have a co-worker that had a Ford Ranger with a bad crank sensor. It would get him to work, but then , not start when time to go home. He'd have it towed to the dealership to be checked , I guess the bouncy ride shook things enough to be working again, so they'd send it back to him. A few days later he'd have the same problem again. Finally they caught it with a CEL. His truck was less than a year old - so that taught me how flimsy they can be.
I'm not familiar with your engine, but I've had a few experiences that have taught me how easy it is to flood them. I forgot to put my rotor back on today, and after a few cranks I figured out my moment of stupidity...LoL. Those few cranks were enough, tho, that I had to put the pedal to the floor to clear out the cylinders before she'd fire up. Engines are of so little displacement these days it doesn't take much fuel to be too rich to make ignition. In your case , you should be able to pull the fuel pump fuse or relay under the hood and crank to clear if you want to.
Also , these modern cars hate weak batterys. All that electronics need a good constant dose of voltage and current to behave themselves. My ole' lady has a '98 Cavalier and she was having hard starting, a fresh battery really helped.
Lastly, used coil and ICM might have failed again. I'm getting a new ICM myself next week come Payday. And possibility of a fuel pressure regulator failure. Regulator going out will cause poor fuel mileage and black soot out exhaust before waving goodbye tho.
Hope you are free of your Gremlin soon friend!!



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Tired day for me trucking as usual.But orlen you know you can use white lithium grease as a insulator too! It comes in a tub like wheel bearing grease and will last forever.I got mine from napa and under five bucks.I use this when I replace my accel wires on my truck bc they are cut to fit,crimp your ends on,then slide the rubber shielding boot over the ends at the plugs.I seldomly ever use dielectrical such a joke to me,bc I change stuff periodically on my truck (plugs for best performance) and greasing them is pointless.Just more bologne to sell to make a buck.I am pretty tired so that is it.

Hi Ron!! Thanks for the Top Tip about the White Lithium Grease!! :-)
That's one of those little things I didn't know about. :-O
I bet that it would be pretty good to use inside the doors for lubing the tracks and regulator for the windows too!!
Just a little advice if you can. The package clearly shows you to apply the grease to the metal tip at the plug and up inside of the metal connection inside boot too. Do you use it there as well, or just where the rubber boot and where porcelain insulator is at. I read that this stuff is non conductive , but you are working with a whole lotta voltage here, so it may not be so much an issue as a regular 12v circuit.
Many years ago when I was a young Buck, I took petroleum jelly and used it all over the lugs and terminals of my car battery. The idea was to prevent corrosion there...I guess.Wanting to do a nice through job, I put plenty of it everywhere. Don't know really know where I got the notion for this random act of profound stupidity, but I wound up with a nasty mess and a car that didn't have any juice. That stuff blocked all the current. Took me a long time to clean that stuff off, and I never messed with it again.
Isn't wonderful how we start out young knowing so much. When we grow old we know so little...LoL


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Well Orlen,
If it does the job for $1.29, go for it, I would. And hey the new wires will definitely help. I used to change my wires every two years on the Cav back in the day when it was a daily summer driver. I always save the old wires for troubleshooting your exact problem, if I need to. Lately I have let them go 4-5 years and the car definitely does seem to have a LITTLE more pep (as much as you can get out of the stock 2.0) when I take it out after installing the new wires.