I just wanted to give an update on some homework I've been involved in. My goal was to swap in the optional gauges w/tach in place of the basic speedo/gas gauge. After tracing out some schematics in an old Haynes manual for J-Bodies covering '82 - '94 I've found bad news. There is no comparability between the 2 designs due to wiring harness changes. I guess if one wanted to tear out the dash and do some extensive harness swapping it might be possible, but I just don't see the point when there is a vast array of aftermarket electronic and manual gauges to choose from.
I decided to check out those schematics after trying 2 different optional gauge sets on my '84 Pontiac. Only thing that would work was the dash lights...even the turn signal indicators were inoperative.
I had hoped to try and get the tachometer to work. Perhaps to hardwire it up to the coil, but that gauge forces you to move the gas gauge to the center-again requiring rewiring- if you're even able to. All in all it is just a lot of PIA for little reward.
I had stumbled across Chuck Walthers and his desire to do the same thing in the 2nd gen forum. Will drop him a PM and let him know B4 he gets too far along.
Of course the reverse applies. If someone was crazy enough to desire to swap out the basic in place of the optional gauge pack - it won't work either.
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Orlen not so sure it is the wiring harness as much as the clear plastic on the back of the instrument cluster. I have the shop manual from Pontiac and it has a great trouble shooting section on electricl problems and shows only one harness pinout .That being said i had a problem with my oil Pressure gauge that was not funtioning when I first got the sunbird in the end it turned out to be that a previous owner replaced a pressure switch with a sending unit the gauge would jump all over the place ( I think this is why I got the car so cheap $127.50 to be exact ) The car was listed as needing a motor
not the case at all it ran fine just showed erratic oil pressur or sometime none at all. At one point i thought it was the gauge itself was bad so i got a cluster out of a Turbo and the lay out was diffrent as well as on the rear of the gauges cerimic rectangular (i believe resistors ) the none turbo was green if i remember correctly and the Turbo was Blue . I dont know if there diffrent from year to year . Not trying to be a know it all just telling you what i learned along the way.
Keith
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Orlen-
I flat out do not trust the Haynes and Chilton books. Lets get you a proper GM shop manual. I think you can make things work. You may need some fresh wiring (like for a 3 wire Oil Pressure gauge instead of the 2 wire light), but I would think we can do something. Manufacturers go for consistency to reduce manufacturing costs and increase profit per vehicle. I can scan you the ip wiring out of the GM book and email it to you if you would like. Speaking of the 3 wire O/P sensor, I hope you have one already as they are pretty pricey to buy.
As far as the tach goes, if you have an MSD box laying around the wiring is simple... They you can put in a window switch for your nitrous
All kidding aside Orlen, let me know how I can help.
Here is both gauge packs together. You can see the difference in the copper trace patterns.
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So how about I get you the pigtail that the ip plugs into from the cadillac and you can splice it in? Seems like we could make it happen that way.
Hi Orlen, I agree with Paul on consistency. I can also get you the the GM Cavalier shop manual if you need it and I also have the Cavalier GM parts breakdown also.
Umm got me thinking on this.I clearly see the cluster is wired a touch different on comparison.Now granted gm probably did have different harnesses based on a gauge/non gauge cluster but I would think that electrical plug THAT the cluster seats into is set for one of the two.The real issue is to determine which wire or wires could be moved in that plug specifically to make a gauge cluster work based on what you said.A touch tired tonight long 12 hr day so bare with me.When I go junking again this wk probably wed or thur and not monday(decided against that) I may snap a pic of that 84s cluster pulled out ON the PIN plug the dash seats into and find a 89 that has gauges(I know way off yr wise) but to see IF the pin plug is the same or pins off for gauges! I know the 85 cav is same as mine cluster wise and no go and even the 85 sedan has dum dum lights too.Let me check this and take pics and remove clusters to see if it is just the plug the dash cluster sets into is different on wiring pins lining up.I so hope this makes good sense I am running out of go power.Orlen I will grab your parts wanted too hdlght bezels and grill and hope that 87 z bump cover is good enuff to yank for you.Thurs on parts run so I have cash to buy stuff and take my truck if that bumper cover is solid.Idios time to crash.520 miles kickin me.
I'm thinkin we can find out a way cause GM had to of used a similar wiring harness just because they were made side by side and it would make the whole assembly process easier and less confusing but if not we could even completely pull all of the dummy gauge wires out of the connector and hard wire the sensors individually to the connector so it would be like wiring up aftermarket gauges but still having the original look still and the added bonus of not having to drill pod mounting holes in my dash
After some careful consideration I've decided to give this project a try. It will more likely involve pulling the whole dash assembly out , and since mine is cracked in the Pontiac, I might as well use this chance to at least give it a try....I'll eventually want to replace it anyways.
I was an Electronics Technician back in my Navy days, so I have a fair idea of the mess this can get involved into. The plug-in that feeds everything into the gauge cluster is not clipped on, rather it simply is attached to the dash itself. When you screw in the cluster it presses into the plug in. It is very important not to mess the plug-in mount up, or you are looking for a new dash for sure. Also you cannot see the wires from the front to the dash, they are hidden behind the plastic on the back side.
As far as compatability goes, the automakers do whatever they want. I remember the Ford Escort 1st gen 1.6 L engines- you couldn't swap an engine w/o air conditioning with an engine that did have air conditioning....the engine mounts were different-a nusiance...
Will write more on this later, anyone with some information realated is most appreciated.
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Well orleans I'll help as much as possible since my car is gonna be down for about a week cause my head gasket blew and it's just dumping coolant into the motor I think I can get a friends to help me trace wires out and I could give you feedback on the possible differences between the second and first gen dash wiring to see if it's at least somewhat feasible todo to a early jbody
Okay here is my thought on this each ip cluster is diffrent i think there are three 1 for turbo 1 for idiot lights and one for gauge package .The harness should be the same thee clear plastic on the back of the ip and the ip clusters are what is difffrent easy to confirm 2 ways 1 look in parts manual see how many were offerd and are the diffrent years useing same part number . The second way would be to lay them on a bench in front of you you said you have expireince in electronics sso take a vom and check for continuity from the the copper trace to the individual gauge i bet you will find the trace wire ends up at the correct gauge each time not the same physical location but oil will go to oil tach will go to tach and so on .the other thing would be to change the sensors for lack of a better term to the ones needed for a gauge package because they are diffrent the gauge could be tested useing a volume control knob from a brocken rado (rheostat) thats my thought .
keith
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so you guys want me to scan the service manual for the ip wiring or no?
Ya I'd like to see the wiring it would certainly help out why don't you post them up so everyone can see them and contribute to helping make this mod happen cause I'd like to be able to put actual gauges in my car
Here is a pict of the actual plug-in on the Pontiac. 2 pins are not used. This is what I was referring to about being very careful with. Break the plastic bracket holding it, and it won't stay connected to the cluster. Wan't to remind everyone, that I did try the optional gauge cluster. Turned on the key - gas gauge - dead turn signals - dead CEL - Dead didn't expect oil/temp/tack to work. The dash lights DID operate when I turned on the lights. I believe there has to be a significant amount of difference between the designs, or most of the basic functions would have worked.
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It looks like if we could pop one that one out cut & strip the wires leaving enough room for us to slpice and then we could wire one that had the optional gauges and push it in there but we'ed have to look up and label every wire associated with the swap but I believe it could be done with the right amount of time and patients
I agree Chuck! .....sorry to hear about your engine woes :-(
A couple of things to keep in mind:
The extra wiring might stress the plug - need to be careful so that rather flimsy really old plastic holding the Plug in place doesn't break.. I had originally thought the whole area there was solid, but it isn't. In fact there isn't much holding that plug in place at all. I'm worried just at the thought about removing it to start with!
I think it would be best to start with the essentials, such as the turn signals, gas gauge, and CEL so it will pass inspection and is drivable too. After those are in order move on to the rest one item at a time.
I thought about soldering the connections and heat shrinking for best connections and protection.
I had a good laugh today, thinking about wiring up the turn signals backwards and taking it like that to get it inspected. Wouldn't that just confuse the heck out of them at the garage!! They'd hit the left turn and the light would blink right LOL
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Well we could probable get some tough plastic to reinforce the thin plastic and hold it in with basically hot glue but something better
And I think I'll have my gasket replaced by Thursday but I went to u-pull it today and got basically the top end of the motor for $50 just in case I need extra parts
When I go back, I am thinking of taking a saw and getting the whole thing in place and as much of the wiring as I can...
Ok, finally had a chance get to my favorite yard...been a few months. Everything is as it was there.
Scored a rack & pump, and complete tilt wheel - things I had pulled a few months ago.
The main reason I went was to get hold of those PI's to the clusters I had pulled. Paul, there really is only one way to get those buggers out - break off the plastic in the left side to allow the harness to come out for you to snip it off. BTW...that mount for that PI is much tougher than it looks - a bonus!! I'll post a doctored up pict showing you the details.
Now for the bad news. I've heard a lot of bragging about GM being a money saver and building interchangeable harnesses. It just ain't, so folks - got some picts to prove it.
So here goes... these clusters are BOTH full gauge clusters. One on top is out of ' 83'ish two headlight Cavalier hatch 4cyl OHV 4 spd. - not sure if it is 1.8 or 2.0. One on bottom is out of '86 Cimirron 2.0 OHV 5 spd. These clusters and harnesses ought to be identical.
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And here is a shot with the PI's...
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Now here is a close up of just the PI's. You can clearly see the bottom half are identical, it is the top half that they go their separate ways.
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And now for a close up of each...notice the Cav uses all 16 terminals, the Cim only 15...
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Not to be outdone, now. Here is yet one more PIA. Check out the differences in the traces on the backs of the clusters themselves! On the upper left sides one has 4 the other...3.
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Remember , this is the same kind of clusters under the best of conditions. There is simply no way that the full and basic are going to have even this much in common. I am going to need to research the wiring on the Pontiac, and then trace the desired function on the cluster I want use by eye and perhaps with a 6 volt battery...something weak that won't do any damage to the circuits for testing. Of course this can be done, but by no means is any of this stuff plug and play. You couldn't simply swap these 2 gauges and get them to work right...even though they are identical.
Lordy, I hope this puts my case to rest :-)
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Ok Paul here is the scoop on the PI.
Use a small flatblade screwdriver at top and bottom to disengage the clips holding the PI in place. Now, it won't move much. The harness is so short it wont come out but about 1/2". Now you can just take a pair of pliers and break off the plastic shown below...
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The harness is shown here. It comes form the right side and will only give you about 2"-3" of wire, but that will be plenty to work with. There isn't going to be room to stash a lot of wire in there anyway...it's close quarters!!
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Thanks Paul!! :-)
Thanks for all the info Orlen & John
Think I'm just going to get one of these from Autometer this summer
Hey orlen just letting you know I did not have enough time to hit the pull a part.House stuff,ship pauls seals,errands,mow my yard(yeah mow the onions are coming up) warm weather,then take the better half out for dinner for her Bday! (can't waste time today).I will try next wk when my TO do's do not over do it for me.That's it and unrelated but so be it.
No sweat Ron!! :-) Parts are not top priority - only at your convenience. Strange firing up mower this time of year :-O
Tell your better half I say "Happy B-Day"!! :-)
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