Hey guys, just want to get some feedback and advice on the current build that I have going on. I got a ecotec 5 speed fully stock. Desirable goal is 180whp and would like to make my torque the same or close. I have done quiet some research and would like to know what are my possibilities of reach my goal my the current list of mods that I will be making. All feedback and critics are welcome.
LIST:
AEM CAI
AEM UGEO Wideband
Stock TB 2mm oversize
LE5 Intake Manifold
36lb Green Top Injectors
2.5 Mandrel Bent Stainless Steel Exhasut
2.5 Magnaflow Catalytic and Resonator
Dynomax Turbo Muffler
LSJ Parcetter coated Header
Rk Sport Upper Mount
Prothane Lower Mount
HP Tunning
250lb weight removal

All feedback welcome. Thank you guys.

Just a suggestion, if your concerned about weight, I would ditch the stainless exhaust, unless you live where they use salt in the winter.
Stainless is very heavy.
You can run an aluminized steel downpipe, and them aluminum from there back.
My S/S is very heavy, but I also have 3 mufflers, and a electronic cutout.

Just a thought

What about a ported head, upgraded valve-train, and a set of cams?

Thank you for the early feedback. So will aluminized steel Exhaust would be more weight friendly, meani g it will weight less. I live I florida so salt is not a very big concern.

Tinkles, that would be nice but as of right now my goal is all bolt, injectors, tune...but Ido not want to touch internal at all. Really we t to push my Eco and squeeze all I can pure bolt on. Any other suggestions

meth injection for sure. not only will it cool your intake charge down but it will also allow you to use more timing. definitely look into doing a tune, thats going to help for sure. the more gas you replace with methanol the better.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

Z yaaa, thank you for the response. How does meth injection work, what gains cam I expect and how safe and risky it can be.

ubet man. anytime. well, methanol or "meth" is a fuel source that you inject into your engine and it effectively increases the octane of your gasoline also going into the engine. usually you would spray 49% meth and 51% water into the engine because straight methanol likes to ignite on its own and you do not want that. the 51% water quells this from happening as well as it also cools the inlet charge more. some people even use straight washer fluid which is around 70% water and 30% meth. it still works just as well.

anyways, what you do is buy a kit. this kit will come with a pump, lines, the injector nozzle, a tank, and everything needed to make the system work. there are varying degrees of kits you can buy, some lavish with controllers and special switches, etc etc the list goes on. really, for an n/a setup a simple kit will do just fine as you will not be needing to spray a whole lot. i would say a 70-100 cc nozzle would work just fine.

when you use meth/water injection like i said, it effectively raises the octane point of the gas, so.. with that being higher, you can push the limits of the engine further by raising ignition timing. this will undoubtidly make your engine have more power and make it much peppier. its a guess and test as to how much though. ive read most n/a car gain about 10-15whp by using a meth/water injection kit and tuning accordingly for it. it really is a nice upgrade and for something like your setup where you are gonna need all the help you can get, it would be ideal. but.. like i said... tuning is nessesary.

as far as risky, as long as you use 49% meth and 51% water its basically harmless. now, when you get into tuning it and when the engine requires the higher octane fuel or it knocks and something happens to the flow of methanol then it can be harmful to the engine. but, this myths surrounding this are greatly exargarated. if you are worried about it enough, you can get a flow sensor that will change something like the tune or back off boost etc. you would want to hook yours up to maybe the igniton source so it physically kills the cars ignition instantly if it detects a loss in flow.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

Water/meth is a complete waste on an internally stock L61. The risk of blowing the engine is greater than the power increase you'll get. The way Zyaaa is talking about tuning the car on it is that the car will be 100% dependent on it. You would be running too much timing for the stock engine to handle without it. Even the safety systems are flawed. What if you are on a highway on ramp trying to merge when the pump cuts out or the tank emptied because of it?

Now if you dug into the engine and raised the compression up to 12, 13, 14:1 then i'll make the argument for water/meth. On a stock engine it isnt worth the money.

Tinkles(KGM) wrote:Water/meth is a complete waste on an internally stock L61. The risk of blowing the engine is greater than the power increase you'll get. The way Zyaaa is talking about tuning the car on it is that the car will be 100% dependent on it. You would be running too much timing for the stock engine to handle without it. Even the safety systems are flawed. What if you are on a highway on ramp trying to merge when the pump cuts out or the tank emptied because of it?

Now if you dug into the engine and raised the compression up to 12, 13, 14:1 then i'll make the argument for water/meth. On a stock engine it isnt worth the money.

why not? stock compression on an L61 is 10.1 is it not? thats pretty good to start from..

like i said, you can buy a failsafe controller that can kill a number of things that will save the engine. and yes, at a nut hair's notice. i ask you to please show proof where this system is "flawed". if he is beating on it on an on ramp trying to merge into traffic beating the fuck out of his car he deserves to blow an engine. if the tank empties again.. he deserves it. only a loser not worthy of running it would not fill the tank.

do you also have proof it wont be worth it a stock internalized l61? i dont believe the record holders ben wenzel jr nor newt ever used methanol injection. jesus, imagine if they had....

not 100% dependent... only about 20%...during WOT. lol





M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

So Oldskool is a loser? He has forgotten to refill his tank on the solstice. Only reason it is still running is that the car isnt tuned to be dependent on meth, like you would have to do to see any gain on a stock engine that cannot be written off as dyno error. Human error it happens to everyone. I think i am going to save that quote thou. Just for when i see you admit that you had a busy week, life was hectic, the needed other attention, etc and you run the tank dry.

Why up the performance of our cars and not beat on them? Im sure you drive all of your cars like a grandpa. I dont know about you, but i prefer to merge properly. Which means on short on ramps you need to be harder on the car so you can just slip into traffic because you are already matching their speed. Now say i had a short on ramp and not alot of room to merge. Yes i am going to be harder on the car and if i had meth it most likely would be spraying. Now say the flow stops and one of the fail safes shuts the car down while i am trying to merge. The vacuum assisted brakes fail to work properly and the power steering shuts down. Bye-Bye Tinkles. The situation is the flaw for the fail safes.

When i say 100% dependent it is WOT. 20% means that you wont blow the engine when you run out.

Zyaaaa wrote: ive read most n/a car gain about 10-15whp by using a meth/water injection kit

Where did you read that? Im sure is was bigger than a 140bhp 4 cylinder. On a stock eco i only see a 3-4whp gain at the MOST. Which could be written off as dyno error.

And 10:1, hah. I feed 16psi out of a 1.32L blower to it with 16* of timing and absolutely no sign of knock. 10:1 is nothing. No water/meth, no need for it.

Hmmm sounds like an interesting option guys, but I believe it will be more of a negative because I do not know how worn my internals may be, so that kind of pressure might actual destroy my engine, at least that's my believe based on the description provided. Thank you for the feedback guys...what other modification maybe be done....
What about...fuel pump, if any will this help me at all or will stock get the job done. Are there any pulleys, alternators pulleys. What about spark plugs. These are things that I think might help. Suggestions, products ideas guys?

Tinkles(KGM) wrote:So Oldskool is a loser? He has forgotten to refill his tank on the solstice. Only reason it is still running is that the car isnt tuned to be dependent on meth, like you would have to do to see any gain on a stock engine that cannot be written off as dyno error. Human error it happens to everyone. I think i am going to save that quote thou. Just for when i see you admit that you had a busy week, life was hectic, the needed other attention, etc and you run the tank dry.

Why up the performance of our cars and not beat on them? Im sure you drive all of your cars like a grandpa. I dont know about you, but i prefer to merge properly. Which means on short on ramps you need to be harder on the car so you can just slip into traffic because you are already matching their speed. Now say i had a short on ramp and not alot of room to merge. Yes i am going to be harder on the car and if i had meth it most likely would be spraying. Now say the flow stops and one of the fail safes shuts the car down while i am trying to merge. The vacuum assisted brakes fail to work properly and the power steering shuts down. Bye-Bye Tinkles. The situation is the flaw for the fail safes.

When i say 100% dependent it is WOT. 20% means that you wont blow the engine when you run out.

Zyaaaa wrote: ive read most n/a car gain about 10-15whp by using a meth/water injection kit

Where did you read that? Im sure is was bigger than a 140bhp 4 cylinder. On a stock eco i only see a 3-4whp gain at the MOST. Which could be written off as dyno error.

And 10:1, hah. I feed 16psi out of a 1.32L blower to it with 16* of timing and absolutely no sign of knock. 10:1 is nothing. No water/meth, no need for it.

no offense to him but yes, its not that big of deal to remember. at least it isnt for me.. i know the engine needs it and its going to get it. just like gasoline. i also have a low fluid sensor and an LED light on the dash that lets me know when its low, though.... its a nice add on.

you can always wire in an activation switch if you dont want meth coming on for on ramp experiences. ill second the need for something as such cuz i had to turn my boost switch up to 5 psi from 3 because i was having issues with it spraying just doing light merging as you are describing. it means less performance.... so i definitely agree with you here.

ive read about it on honda tech before. they can add lots of timing though. i also have a buddy with an n/a teg that he's spraying with methanol. he loves it on his motor... said it gave it a nice little bump. thats coming from a 1.6l. now, an eco is a 2.2 which is much larger. bigger engine, bigger gains. i dont see any trouble getting 10-15, hell maybe even 20whp from an aggressive meth setup. nobody is saying there is a "need" for it, but if you wanna squeeze everything out its a great start.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

Richard Trick wrote:Hmmm sounds like an interesting option guys, but I believe it will be more of a negative because I do not know how worn my internals may be, so that kind of pressure might actual destroy my engine, at least that's my believe based on the description provided. Thank you for the feedback guys...what other modification maybe be done....
What about...fuel pump, if any will this help me at all or will stock get the job done. Are there any pulleys, alternators pulleys. What about spark plugs. These are things that I think might help. Suggestions, products ideas guys?

your engine doesnt see 70-100psi from the pump. it just pressurizes the line to this effect and then at the tip nozzle the water/meth mixture basically becomes a very fine mist. and when it his the hot boost/intake manifold it becomes somewhat of a light fog. by the time it enters your engine its lost a lot of its volume as compared to a straight liquid.

as far as pullies go, get ahold of mike md ld9 davis, he makes some good pullies. for n/a i would ditch your ac completey and run a shorter belt with an aem oversized alt. pulley and an undersized rk sport crank pulley would work but id first try mike. he's a great resource. i just dont know of his availability for the ecotec.

spark plugs probably stock or an ngk replacement i would think would be fine. might want to run a 1 step colder plug to quell detonation better if you plan on running a good amount of timing, though. when they say "Colder" it has no affect on the performance of the plug it just means it has more shielding and there for does not run as hot with the added bonus of it not actually causing detonation because its become so hot.

ive heard the LE5 (2.4l) ecotec intake manifold is a nice bump on an l61 2.2. i would definitely look into that.




Edited 2 time(s). Last edited Saturday, June 29, 2013 7:48 PM


M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

brad, throwing more timing at an engine doesn't always make it more powerful.

there is such a thing as too much timing, even if you aren't knocking


and your obsession with cooling things continues to irk me.
meth injection on a 10:1 compression engine is a waste of time money space and weight

now, if you're running close to 12:1 compression, that's another story...


to the OP, add a 2.4 ecotec bottom end to your equation, a ported head, upgraded valvetrain/ cams... and 180whp should be a cake walk

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:brad, throwing more timing at an engine doesn't always make it more powerful.

there is such a thing as too much timing, even if you aren't knocking


and your obsession with cooling things continues to irk me.
meth injection on a 10:1 compression engine is a waste of time money space and weight

now, if you're running close to 12:1 compression, that's another story...


to the OP, add a 2.4 ecotec bottom end to your equation, a ported head, upgraded valvetrain/ cams... and 180whp should be a cake walk

why does it irk you? lol cooling on an n/a engine isnt going to yield much, i know this. but cooling for boost does wonders, you know that.

honestly, for the weight added you could take a big shit and make more of a difference if you use a stock washer fluid pump vs the 10 pound pumps that come in the kits.

will it yield 500whp? no. will it yield something? well that remains to be seen as there is no real proof on a 2.2 eco. but there is no reason it cant. and i understand timing cant be just cranked lol but its a safe bet to say the stock timing is light years away from optimal for max output. waste of time money and space i think not. weight isnt much either....



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

Thank you once again for the feedback. I would not mind ditching the Ac out of the car at all. If I was to do so, around how much weight will this save me? Will I still be able to run the same compressor? Will it affect any performance on my behicle or require any other modifications other than the small belt and pulley for the compressor.

Research owned me on this one, but would you mind sending me a link to the short belt that people use for this modification and the alt pulley. I would highly appreciated.

I already got the 2.4 intake manifold, just waiting to finish everything GeForce I throw it in since it will require tuning, but definitely will be using one of my project.. Where else would it be possible to ditch some weight on my engine bay. All my interior has been removed Wheels will be replace with traiklites. All feedback welcome guy.

-Z Yaaaa- wrote:do you also have proof it wont be worth it a stock internalized l61? i dont believe the record holders ben wenzel jr nor newt ever used methanol injection. jesus, imagine if they had....

Their problem wasn't a lack of timing......

never said it was a "problem". it can be debated (i say debated because neither side has proof) that methanol injection could have yielded more power results for them. and not just from timing increases, either. plenty of cars gain power on methanol alone without any timing changes. not to mention a cooler/denser air intake charge can help make more power as well. now, again, i say it can be debated. no proof from either side so its a stalemate as far as im concerned. no need to beat a dead horse back to death on the subject. only those that sift through the myths, and the bullshit on the subject and actually try it out will know if any gains can be had. id say its worth a shot, though....



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

-Z Yaaaa- wrote:never said it was a "problem". it can be debated (i say debated because neither side has proof) that methanol injection could have yielded more power results for them. and not just from timing increases, either. plenty of cars gain power on methanol alone without any timing changes. not to mention a cooler/denser air intake charge can help make more power as well. now, again, i say it can be debated. no proof from either side so its a stalemate as far as im concerned. no need to beat a dead horse back to death on the subject. only those that sift through the myths, and the bullshit on the subject and actually try it out will know if any gains can be had. id say its worth a shot, though....

brad, I really don't think methanol INJECTION helps much...

meth injection is used when detonation is a problem. neither of the mentioned cars had issues with detonation or lack of timing...


now, if you're talking about running a car on pure methanol, that's a different story.

DaFlyinSkwirl (Pj) wrote:

-Z Yaaaa- wrote:never said it was a "problem". it can be debated (i say debated because neither side has proof) that methanol injection could have yielded more power results for them. and not just from timing increases, either. plenty of cars gain power on methanol alone without any timing changes. not to mention a cooler/denser air intake charge can help make more power as well. now, again, i say it can be debated. no proof from either side so its a stalemate as far as im concerned. no need to beat a dead horse back to death on the subject. only those that sift through the myths, and the bullshit on the subject and actually try it out will know if any gains can be had. id say its worth a shot, though....

brad, I really don't think methanol INJECTION helps much...

meth injection is used when detonation is a problem. neither of the mentioned cars had issues with detonation or lack of timing...


now, if you're talking about running a car on pure methanol, that's a different story.

lol you have more imagination than this, man. why do you assume that meth injection's sole purpose is to quell detonation? that is but merely one of it's pro's...

and well like i said, the meth injection debate will rage on. its a never ending debacle but its funny you say that because i am using meth injection for its cooling properties alone at the moment. works pretty damn well, actually...

and pj you know as well as anybody.... when ur n/a any help is worth it. 5-10hp is pretty good.... and thats on the conservative side. ive read that for every 10* of IAT you drop its worth 1% as far as hp goes. so, on a 200whp na car, thats 2hp per 10* dropped. granted, again.. no proof but i dont see why the laws of physics wont apply to a j-body engine. see what im getting at though? imagine if the slight water/meth injection cooled the IAT's down 40* on that same 200whp car could yield 8hp. and again, thats on the conservative side. ive seen meth/water injection tame even my hottest m45 air charge 40* or better. ever felt your car pull harder on a nice cool night vs a hot day? same principle. no, 8hp is not much but remember, this could only be from the cooling properties alone. increases from timing and simply replacing some of the gasoline with methanol could yield higher results. when you are talking about a car like the OP's which will be maxed out on bolt on's and not opening up the engine, things like water/meth injection start to really look good.

now, one could argue for the sake of the water/meth taking up volumetric efficiency. i have not read far enough into this topic to really get into it but i know the issue is there. this is probably one big reason why n/a cars dont gain a whole lot from a meth injection system. but if you increase the sizes of the intake/tb/cai and valves as well as a port job and header/exhaust i feel this issue would be greatly discounted.



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

I'm sorry brad, I really don't think there's much to be gained n/a from a meth injection setup.

if you want meth, you replace all the gasoline with methanol.
anything less is a waste of time.


lost power on a hot day is more because of the PCM is pulling timing than anything else. with a few tweaks with HPT this problem goes away for the most part...
This is a street engine we're talking about.

a naturally aspirated engine does not heat up air like a boosted car does. this is why meth injection, IMO, is a waste of time money and effort.

unless meth can magically bring IATs below ambient (which I highly doubt) it's a waste of time.
your meth/gasoline ratio is not going to be enough to warrant power increase
the OPs car is not very high compression. so again, detonation isn't an issue... so increasing octane rating over pump gas is also a waste.


I understand where your coming from Brad, but sweating 1% power increase is again, a waste of attention that could be better applied elsewhere.. someplace it'll actually make a difference.

if you were arguing for meth injection on a built engine, I might be swayed to agree with you, but on a mostly stock build with stock compression, it's a complete waste.

i hate to say it man but you nor i have any proof to back up our claims on an ecotec. so, this debate, much like most meth debates, is going to be a stalemate. what you think and what i think is not proof.

when does the PCM start pulling timing for excessive heat anyway? last time i looked at the HPT IAT table i thought it was something stupid like 170*? ill have to look again to be sure... but an n/a engine is never going to get that hot of iat's. maybe 120-130 at the MOST. i dont see any reason why meth injection cant knock down an n/a engine's iat's below ambiant. if it can keep mine with the blower about the same as it is cruising its gotta work better on something not heating the inlet air up at all..

and dont forget, it's 1% per 10*. at 200whp thats 2hp per 10*. per 10*. the more hp you have the better results you get...



M45/OS crank/2.4 snout. It's nice to be injected but I love being blown!

meth injection on n/a motor...


- Your not-so-local, untrained, uncertified, backyard mechanic. But my @!#$ runs

Its asinine because there are sooooo many more places you can make more power more safely and efficiently then decreasing the temp of the intake charge.

The amount of heat you pull out of the air with meth injection decreases as the IAT decreases. The law of diminishing returns is a bitch.