well i thought id ask and see what happens with this. the hhr ss has a turboed eco motor. how come when ppl swap their js they dont use one of these motors? just askin. like is there a certain reason.

They use a different cam reluctor wheel and would require using a standalone or completely rewiring the whole car to work with the stock SS computer. Oh wait you're asking about the DI VVT tc 2 litre, that con only run off the stock computer, from the car it came from.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer

Yeah, with the $$ you'd spend on the swap you could have a faster, more tunable J with an eco or LD9. Those cars limiting factor is tuning



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Tuning is no the limiting factor on the lnf. You can make big power on an all stock car with just tuning. They have maf and speed density, we're stuck with alpha-n.


1994 Saturn SL2 Home Coming Edition: backup car
2002 Chevy Cavalier LS Sport Coupe: In a Junk Yard
1995 Mazda Miata R-package Class=STR
Sponsored by: Kronos Performance

WPI Class of '12 Mechanical Engineering
WPI SAE Risk and Sustainability Management Officer

Leafy, I guess you haven't heard? Those cars tuning is @!#$. People putting down 405 whp on a GT35R with 27 psi all because of HPT and trifecta, it's a lost cause atm, I'll let ryan chime in. But then you max out the stock fuel system shortly there after and have no options for injectors, and raising FP on a system that runs 2000 psi is already crazy. Ryan (oldskool) and I discuss this frequently.

iirc ryan said it's all in the TQ management settings, apparently HPT hasn't unlocked the adjustability of certain settings in the factory ecu so it limits power.


The most anyone made that we know of is Hahn and I believe that used MOST of a standalone.



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Leafy wrote:Tuning is no the limiting factor on the lnf. You can make big power on an all stock car with just tuning. They have maf and speed density, we're stuck with alpha-n.

You can make a great deal more power on the stock turbo and that's about it. Hell, i made 307whp on a stock turbo, but throw on a bigger turbo and the PCM says fck you. Turbo swaps are fail on this engine. Relatively large turbos running a lot of boost are not making what they should - or rather what they do on equivalent PFI platforms. Most recent example - s20g turbo swap made 390 whp with a peak of 35psi of boost. I've also seen a 405whp on 25-ish PSI from a gt30r.

Not that there have not been success stories, but they use electonic foolery and like three tuning overlays to get it done. I think ZZP holds the record at 530-ish whp going all out on race fuel and like 3000psi fuel pressure on an S256et befroe a rod bent. pistons and crank held up.

Forget stand alone on the LNF - no one will touch VVT + DI.

Bottom line, this engine will not be an easy swap in a jbody.

IamQwibby (Eco Meatcake) wrote: The most anyone made that we know of is Hahn and I believe that used MOST of a standalone.

BS..... Put a Hahn LNF up against ANY LNF I have tuned (or built), and I guarantee you will see some hurt feelings. Now if you are speaking of Adam's car (not the LNF), then yes, they have done some good work with it, but most of it was made possible by using a Standalone EFI unit (I wanna say Accell DFI/Very awesome unit to work with BTW)...

The LNF is honestly the best bang for the buck when it comes to performance and a stock car. Yes, HPT is slacking on a sh!tload of tables, but with the right resources, and some time, tiral and error, and some calculations, good things can be achieved.... Ryan (Oldskool) is mostly correct with his statements also. BTW, with a s252 and 22psi, we made 415whp UNCORRECTED on a Mustang Dyno (It was actually ZZP's dyno) a few weeks ago. This was also on pump gas. That same car is running 25-27 psi now (its a very good friends car/one I sponsor) and its a very violent ride! We have not pushed it farther due the some noises in the trans. Can't wait to put in race gas or an E85 mix.. Honestly, it has awesome potential, but the combo tune is needed in order to access all the appropriate tables. It would be sick to see one in a J, but I doubt we will ever see it! J owners are mosty a bunch of cheap asses as most of us already know. Bottom line, gotta pay to play......






P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

why mess with direct injection when you can stick to port injection and just run a stand alone? makes way more sense.

save for the VVT and direct injection, the LSJ is the LNF more or less (bottom end is almost identical), but the LSJ uses port injection.. way easier to swap in than a direct injected motor.

turbo LSJ's make 350whp-400whp on stock internals.

the crank reluctor is a different pattern, and the jbody pcm cannot use it. So phil has a bolt-on external crank trigger that you can use to get it to work with the stock pcm

or, upgrade to a stand alone (like I did).

I'm currently working on finishing up my LSJ bottom end swap in my 02 cavalier. The car drives, but I have yet to tune it or race it.. its been a long time coming and it still requires more money since I went ridiculously far with modifying it.

swapping in a direct injected engine into a car without direct injection is a lot of work that to me isn't worth it. Direct injection backs you into a corner, and is more work than swapping in a port injected engine and making the same power for less money.

But, I agree with ryan (cavattack), if you have an LNF equipped car, its a great bang-for-buck setup. But if you have a jbody, swapping the bottom end of a port injected ecotec (LE5 or LSJ) is a great OEM+ style upgrade that is made a lot simpler with Qwibby's trigger ring. Or, if you want more control over tunability (with complete disregard for emissions) you can go stand alone.

going thru the trouble for a direct injected engine is stupid.

ryan - I did not know you guys put bigger numbers down, my bad for that, had I known I would have said so



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Is the issue with tuning a DI engine 1) lack of higher volume injectors or 2) more to do with fuel timing?




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IamQwibby (Eco Meatcake) wrote:ryan - I did not know you guys put bigger numbers down, my bad for that, had I known I would have said so

I guess thats why I tried to clariify what Hahn vehicle you are talking about. Adam's, or an LNF car they have done..... (See my 1st post in this thread ) PJ has some very valid points. If it were me, I would do the LNF block, forged internals, and an LSJ head with a Standalone or LSJ PCM. I witnessed Ryan@ ZZP put over 600whp with ease a few weeks ago. The LNF is by far the most stout block I have seen in the ECO family without being sleeved.

Whalesac, The main reason is tuning can be more of a challenge is due to a serious lack of tables. Its a very easy PCM to tune, IF you know what you are looking at and how all the load controls work. Just I we have been doing it with the Jbody PCM, you gotta make due with waht you got.....







P&P Tuning
420.5whp / 359.8wtq

oldskool corrected me,. it was ZZP and they bent a rod, it was not hahn.



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Ryan (QWK LN2) is the exception - one of the few that laid down good solid numbers on big turbo swaps. I've seen three disgusting failures for every success story.