This is mostly for the squirl because I know he is attempting a swap similar to this.
But I need to know how different the clutch/flywheel/ slave cylinder/throwout bearings are between the F23/L61 and the F35/LSJ?
I have an ION redline and want to do a 2.2 built bottom end, keeping the lsj head and f35 trans.. I know everything will bolt together and I know I need a 2.2 crank out of a 05+ cobalt/ion with the 56x reluctor wheel on it. and I also know the flywheel bolt pattern is different
But I need to know what else is needed for the clutch to work properly??
anyone help?
why the 2.2 bottom end if you don't mind me asking.
How about an LE5 bottom end? The crank should already have the correct number of teeth right? Unless the reason you're going with the L61 bottom end is because you got one DIRT cheap.
*subcribed and interested...
the 2.2 and 2.4 crank has 6 fly wheel bolts , and the 2.0 has 8
also the LSJ f35 uses a spacer between the engine and trans
2.0 has engine oil cooler , 2.2 does not
yes i'm going with the 2.2 (if i can figure all this out) because of displacement..
I know about the different flywheel bolt patterns, the different crank trigger between the years (i know i need a crank from a cobalt or 05+ ion) and I know about the oil cooler and spacer. everything can be swapped between the 2 motors no problem..
I need help figuring out which clutch/flywheel/slave cylinder i need to use. actually mostly just the slave cylinder part. I'd have to use a l61 flywheel and clutch, but which slave cylinder will work in the f35 transmission with the l61 clutch is my main concern
Forget the .2 displacement just tune for more boost with the lsj. lol
You have alot of better internal goodies than a 2.2 such as oil jets in the block, Id say just build the lsj.
you guys are missing the point
all hes doin is swapping in a 2.2l rotating mass into his lsj....i.e. crank rods pistons......thats it......all the goodness of the lsj w/ 2.2 bottom end
i think you will need the clutch,pressure plate from a f23...the clutch disc of an lsj and perhaps a spacer on the throwout bearing(l61) to make up for the gap of trans spacer
i could be wrong but i think thats the just of it
swapped, supercharged, intercooled, 2.9, fun
the clutch setups (flywheel + clutch) are NON interchangable between the 2.2 and 2.0. The 2.2 and 2.0 clutches have different outer diameters so the F23 clutch material would be too small on the F35 flywheel, and F35 clutch material would be too large on the F23 flywheel. Also, the outer bolts are no where NEAR lining up. If you go with a clutch setup it has to be entirely 2.2 or entirely 2.0.. not to mention they only bolt to their assigned cranks.. so really the crank choice is what dictates the clutch choice.
so far as transmissions, either will suffice. but there is fitment issues with the 2.0 bolting to an F23 transmission so far as the thermostat housing goes. otherwise, either trans is a direct swap. The F35s 'intermediate driveshaft' or 'center shaft' or whatever the F they call it should bolt right up to the eco block and F23.
When it comes to the clutch actuator or 'throw out bearing', use the part that matches the transmission. I have yet to see if they're universal, but so far measurements i've taken give me hope. but until I get the skwirl to move on its own I won't be 100% sure.
so far as rotating assembly. awful lot of work for .2 liters displacement. All gen II blocks have oil squirters and goodies.. I'd look into an LE5 bottom end swap. those bishes with s/c on them make damn near 260whp easily
overall, its tough to say which route to go. If it were up to me, I'd stick 2.0 and increase boost or change to a turbocharger. if you're hell bent on the m90, swap a 2.4 bottom end.
but if you're looking for ease of upgrade, 2.2 bottom would be easiest. but swapping the whole bottom end sure is a lot of work. not to mention, the 2.2s have crappy rods and crappy pistons. And don't think you can just swap crankshafts either.. the pin location in the pistons and the lengths of the rods are dictated by the stroke and forms a very delicate geometry. you can't mix and match parts and expect it to work. It'll bind and seize the minute you try to crank it.
stick with either a complete 2.2 assembly in a 2.0 block (crank, rods, pistons), swap in a complete 2006+ 2.2, swap in an LE5 2.4, or keep the LSJ 2.0 the way it is, or maybe upgrade the internals you already have.
displacement isn't god.. rod ratio is much more important. In that department, the 2.0 wins hands down
the plan of now is a build the 2.2 using a 2.2 internals, I'm not keeping the supercharger, swapping to a turbo. I do not want a rev monster, hence the reason of increasing displacement, if i wanted to rev the hell out of the car i would build the 2.0..redline will be 7k max
but the 2,2 is also cheaper to build, lsj pistons are close/if not to more than 600 dollars, there is no aftermarket rods for them with out being custom made (granted the rods are strong as hell in stock form) 2.2 internals are ~800 dollars for rods and pistons
basicly the plan is to the build I was going to do for my cavalier, but in the ION with a f35 trans and LSJ head. I have a gen 2 l61 block just sitting here, just needs a crank and internals
ps. my lsj is already on a 2.9 pulley (16psi) water/meth injection, stage 2 injectors, intake and nitrous front mount heat exchanger stage 2 plus clutch and 7lb flywheel.. I'm bored of the supercharger, and want something more fun, faster and different.. yeah I just swap a turbo on it, but I also have almost 100k on the car, and I don't want to end up walking..build it now for more fun later with less down time
trust me i've thought about all my options, this seems the most logical for my goals.
also to add to this, IF i was building a straight race car, I would keep the 2.0, but I want a more streetable vehicle and lower end torque will be more fun, increasing the displacement with a decent compression ration and mild ~16-20 psi of boost on a decent size turbo will be more than enough for me
p.s most people on CSS.net and redlineforums are stupid hence the reason why i'm asking here
then why not use a 2.4 ? hahn has made over 350whp from 1 stock internals
2.2's arent set up for the oil cooler and its not a quick swap , 2.4's how ever did come with oil coolers , and some did not
[quote=97cavie24ls(™)]then why not use a 2.4 ? hahn has made over 350whp from 1 stock internals
2.2's arent set up for the oil cooler and its not a quick swap , 2.4's how ever did come with oil coolers , and some did not
agreed 100% - if your only reason for swapping in L61 internals is displacement, go with this option - you get higher quality OEM parts and you double the amount of displacement that you gain
The LE5 bottom end with the LSJ or L61 top end would solve some VVT tuning/comaptibility issues with a direct swap of the LE5, plus it would be killer in a J if you prove it can be done!
I'd go LE5. 2.2 internals just isn't worth the hassle.
especially if you're interested in keeping revs low. Little engines need to rev high.. its physics. If you don't want to rev higher, get a bigger bottom end.
the 2.2 has a crappy rod ratio for high RPM but its not half bad for midrange torque. the 2.4 is even better in this aspect.. but if it came down to it, go with a 2.4.. way better option IMO.
buy a used LE5 out of a junkyard and strip it down to the block then swap it into your car under the LSJ head and mate it to the F35 trans.
just be sure to use an LE5 headgasket and you should be golden. Keep in mind, it has a 10.5:1 compression ratio so that may come into play if knock comes a knockin (most likely will with the s/c... can be controlled with a turbo)
the car is going to be swapped to a turbo period..the main reason why i want to do the 2.2 is because its cheaper to build for higher power, it doesn't need to rev to the sky to make power/torque and I ALREADY have one, no need to go find another block when the 2.2 will reach my goals just fine, hell the 2.0 will reach my goals, but I do not want any down time and lsj's are expensive..
the bottom end will not be stock so I do not care about the what the factory internals can hold
I'm building a fun to drive daily driver/weekend racer, midrange is where it is at, no need for high revs, especially with the f35 trans..
also it is not going into a jbody..i already had my fun of jbody's..3 of them, 1 turbo'd 2200 automatic, z24 with a 086 head swap and nitrous (both on megasquirt) and another one that was getting a built ecotec that I never could finish due to financial issues with getting a new car..all three have their own threads on here if you don't believe me either..
it may not seem like it, but i do know what i am doing
so use the clutch actuator for the transmission? no need for a spacer or anything like that?
Damn you PJ, you have just put ideas in my head that i cannot afford right now.
w00t ryan w00t
enough with the suggestions on what motor he should run or what everyone else thinks he should run, help the man out with any info relating to what he is actually asking. id love to see this project up and going. good luck man wish i could help out with some info
RyZ96 wrote:the car is going to be swapped to a turbo period..the main reason why i want to do the 2.2 is because its cheaper to build for higher power, it doesn't need to rev to the sky to make power/torque and I ALREADY have one, no need to go find another block when the 2.2 will reach my goals just fine, hell the 2.0 will reach my goals, but I do not want any down time and lsj's are expensive..
the bottom end will not be stock so I do not care about the what the factory internals can hold
I'm building a fun to drive daily driver/weekend racer, midrange is where it is at, no need for high revs, especially with the f35 trans..
also it is not going into a jbody..i already had my fun of jbody's..3 of them, 1 turbo'd 2200 automatic, z24 with a 086 head swap and nitrous (both on megasquirt) and another one that was getting a built ecotec that I never could finish due to financial issues with getting a new car..all three have their own threads on here if you don't believe me either..
it may not seem like it, but i do know what i am doing
so use the clutch actuator for the transmission? no need for a spacer or anything like that?
not to punch holes in your plans but.. the 2.0 with a factory bottom end makes over 400hp on like 17psi of boost... I think you're trying to do a bunch of work that you don't really need to.
this is at like 7300rpm or so too. if you want 500hp or more then you may want to look into forged stuff but with the gen II blocks.. but I think you're wasting money on parts you don't need.
size your turbo properly, then make sure you have enough fueling and have fun. 60# injectors won't be big enough.. look up Black06G85 sometime
i did.. and he's pushing the hell out of that motor, he knows it also and i'm pretty sure its more like 21-22 psi he's making 411whp..
Why build a engine that at any minute can go boom very very easily. Yeah the LSJ with a turbo swap can make a lot of power, doesn't mean its going to be super reliable. or going to last long. a built 2.2 can do just as much and more safely
This is my daily driver, little to no down time is the best... Like I said my car has almost 100k miles on it more than half have been hard hard miles with the sweet hair dryer on it.
..
I'm not trying to sound like a dick. But I've researched all my options and I know what the LSJ can do easily, but I can not afford to have a car that destroys it self after a few months of alot of power.. LSJ's are upwords of 1k around here and a helluva lot more to build
Also anything the stock lsj can do, i can do with a 2.2 with a built bottom end plus more
I don't know why this has to turn into a bitch fest? I mean it is MY car
p.s only 1 person has publicly said they made 400WHP.. one person doesn't mean they all can handle it
RyZ96 wrote:I don't know why this has to turn into a bitch fest? I mean it is MY car
..wtf are you talking about? it didn't turn into a bitch fest until just now. You asked for suggestions, and I'm giving them, where the hell did I demand you to do something??
you're right, it is your car. guess you'll have to figure it out all by yourself.
Quote:
I'm not trying to sound like a dick
fail.
DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:RyZ96 wrote:I don't know why this has to turn into a bitch fest? I mean it is MY car
..wtf are you talking about? it didn't turn into a bitch fest until just now. You asked for suggestions, and I'm giving them, where the hell did I demand you to do something??
you're right, it is your car. guess you'll have to figure it out all by yourself.
I guess you failed to read anything I said, because I never asked for suggestions.. the only thing I wanted to know is the clutch actuator situation
Quote:
I'm not trying to sound like a dick
fail.
oh well, sorry that I won't do what you want, good luck with your build
RyZ96 wrote:DaFlyinSkwir(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:RyZ96 wrote:I don't know why this has to turn into a bitch fest? I mean it is MY car
..wtf are you talking about? it didn't turn into a bitch fest until just now. You asked for suggestions, and I'm giving them, where the hell did I demand you to do something??
you're right, it is your car. guess you'll have to figure it out all by yourself.
I guess you failed to read anything I said, because I never asked for suggestions.. the only thing I wanted to know is the clutch actuator situation
Quote:
I'm not trying to sound like a dick
fail.
oh well, sorry that I won't do what you want, good luck with your build
agree, i even said it a few posts back but everyone seems to disregard everything and wants to hand out suggestions way way off topic...
pj your quick to yell at people in your own thread about staying on topic so lets not be a hypocrite here..
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) v2.0 wrote:Jcavi wrote:untracable mis? are you just retracing a fault to a different PO code? so all your monitors are reading out as just some nasty mis?
this was someone else's car.. lets stay on topic.
need i say more?
let me start over for ryan
RyZ96 wrote:This is mostly for the squirl because I know he is attempting a swap similar to this.
But I need to know how different the clutch/flywheel/ slave cylinder/throwout bearings are between the F23/L61 and the F35/LSJ?
I have an ION redline and want to do a 2.2 built bottom end, keeping the lsj head and f35 trans.. I know everything will bolt together and I know I need a 2.2 crank out of a 05+ cobalt/ion with the 56x reluctor wheel on it. and I also know the flywheel bolt pattern is different
But I need to know what else is needed for the clutch to work properly??
anyone help?
gmanz24 wrote:pj your quick to yell at people in your own thread about staying on topic so lets not be a hypocrite here..
let me start over for ryan
RyZ96 wrote:This is mostly for the squirl because I know he is attempting a swap similar to this.
But I need to know how different the clutch/flywheel/ slave cylinder/throwout bearings are between the F23/L61 and the F35/LSJ?
I have an ION redline and want to do a 2.2 built bottom end, keeping the lsj head and f35 trans.. I know everything will bolt together and I know I need a 2.2 crank out of a 05+ cobalt/ion with the 56x reluctor wheel on it. and I also know the flywheel bolt pattern is different
But I need to know what else is needed for the clutch to work properly??
anyone help?
ok..
DaFlyinSkwirl(LS61) /PJ/ OEM+ wrote:the clutch setups (flywheel + clutch) are NON interchangable between the 2.2 and 2.0. The 2.2 and 2.0 clutches have different outer diameters so the F23 clutch material would be too small on the F35 flywheel, and F35 clutch material would be too large on the F23 flywheel. Also, the outer bolts are no where NEAR lining up. If you go with a clutch setup it has to be entirely 2.2 or entirely 2.0.. not to mention they only bolt to their assigned cranks.. so really the crank choice is what dictates the clutch choice.
so far as transmissions, either will suffice. but there is fitment issues with the 2.0 bolting to an F23 transmission so far as the thermostat housing goes. otherwise, either trans is a direct swap. The F35s 'intermediate driveshaft' or 'center shaft' or whatever the F they call it should bolt right up to the eco block and F23.
When it comes to the clutch actuator or 'throw out bearing', use the part that matches the transmission. I have yet to see if they're universal, but so far measurements i've taken give me hope. but until I get the skwirl to move on its own I won't be 100% sure.
my first post in this thread.. answers the question to the best of my knowledge. I've compared both flywheel and clutch assemblies side by side, physically, in my hand with a veneer and a tape measure comparing the two.
but to add to it since I constantly think in terms of jbody, the Ion should have little issues with bolting up to the L61 block. The external dimensions, and mounting holes of all ecotec blocks are identical. The issue with the F23 shifter cable bracket interfering with the thermostat housing is moot on the Ion since the LSJ T-housing works with the F35 (and both these parts should be brought over to the L61 block if you bolt it into the Ion).
issues with the spacer have been drawn to my attention by suncavi in my hybrid thread.. you may have to remove it to use the L61 block.. but again I'm not absolutely sure.
the 'self-adjustability' of the hydraulic clutch SHOULD be able to take up the slack since the dimension from the clutch pressure springs to the face of the engine's mounting surface is roughly within 1/16" or so. I won't know for sure until I try it in the skwirl but I'm 85% sure it will work properly.
you may need to retain it for the F35, but again I'm working with the F23 so its hard to say for sure.. if I can get the LSJ to work in my car WITHOUT the spacer, you should have to use the L61 WITH the spacer (basically keep the spacer with the transmission if it had it) but again.. until I get the skwirl moving and 100% functional I won't be absolutely sure.
