Rod ratio - good read! - Performance Forum

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Rod ratio - good read!
Monday, April 07, 2008 7:56 PM
want to know what the skwirl has been up to? I've been doing a lot of homework for this coming year, deciding where I should take the skwirl next. A lot of you will be pleased to know that I plan on staying in the all motor category and mixing it up with ben for another year, and possibly section 8 cav with the 2.6 liter twin cam.

I am doing bottom end modifications this year, but a lot of people may be wondering whats going on... I've been doing TONS of homework the past 6 months, and have finally come to a decision. A lot of people may think I'm trying to accomplish a 2.4 ecotec swap.. and rational thought would agree.. no replacement for displacement right? well I'm going a route that some may think is a bit crazy... but take a look at this article and it may give you a slight idea as to my thought process:

ignore that this is from honda magazine.. those who are savvy know that if you're looking to copy/learn anything for all motor 4 bangers... honda is the company and aftermarket to look at for tips/tricks.


Rod/Stroke Ratio - What's Your Angle?
Dip into the intricate world of internal engine geometry and look closely at something you know very little about: rod/stroke ratios. (C'mon, admit it!) Editor Bob demystifies.
writer: Bob Hernandez


If there's one truth about Honda engines, it's that they like to scream. And Honda enthusiasts like to make them scream. The numbers on the tach reach so high, Honda practically offers the license: Go ahead. Make it sing. It's good at it. So long as you don't miss a shift, all is bliss.

Lightweight components, stronger materials and shorter strokes enable modern four-cylinder engines to spin very fast, yet last longer than ever. A tremendous amount of science goes into engineering and creating these high-spinning machines, most of it rooted in elementary principles of physics and geometry-fundamentals anyone planning to build an engine should know.

Understanding rod/stroke ratio, or the amount that a rod deviates from an imaginary straight line extending from the center of the crank journal to the center of the piston, is key to knowing how these machines deliver power at high rpm.

Determining the Rod/Stroke Ratio
To determine a motor's rod/stroke ratio, divide rod length (distance in millimeters from the center of the big and small ends) by stroke. A B18C1, for example, combines 138mm rods with an 87.2mm stroke for a 1.58:1 ratio.

Most engine builders shoot for a ratio between 1.5:1 and 1.8:1 on a street motor, with 1.75:1 considered ideal, regardless of application. (The most highly developed four-stroke engines in the world-F1 and motorcycle engines-have rod ratios of more than 2:1.)

The rod/stroke ratio affects several engine dynamics, including piston speed and acceleration, piston dwell at top dead center and bottom dead center, piston side loads, cylinder loading and bearing loads. Many of these elements play roles in engine aspiration, combustion and wear.

Generally, a lower ratio means a high rod angle, creating greater potential for accelerated wear to cylinder walls, pistons and rings. A low enough ratio, due to the severity of its rod angle, can drive a piston right into the cylinder wall.

Higher ratio engines, on the other hand, don't have the same friction concerns, but compromise in other areas. Air does not fill the intake ports with the same velocity, and there is less demand for the ports to flow as well since there is more time to fill and scavenge the cylinder (we discuss this phenomenon later). This typically means stagnant airflow at low revs and weaker torque. Hey, you can't have it all.

Lower Ratios-A Honda Characteristic
As the chart on this page indicates, many Honda ratios-designed for economy-fall on the low side. Honda produces compact, short four-cylinder engine blocks that don't require long rods. Most Honda blocks also feature a small bore. When coupled with a short stroke, the rod angle is still harsh, though not as bad as if the piston were larger in diameter.

Some tuners take the geometry into their own hands with longer rods. A longer rod makes more torque with the same piston force, and since it's less angular than a shorter rod, reduces sidewall loading and decreases friction. All of this adds up to more power.

Longer rods also give the pistons more "dwell," the brief periods of time the piston is at top dead center and bottom dead center. A longer dwell allows for better flow of intake and exhaust gases since the piston moves slower between up- and downstrokes.

Longer dwell also offers more time to fill the cylinders during the intake stroke and more time to scavenge during overlap. And since the piston hangs out at or near TDC longer, the combustion stroke has more time to deliver a thorough release of energy on to the piston.

In a stroked motor, the piston ultimately reaches greater speeds to cover the additional stroke. The speed makes intake, compression and exhaust strokes more turbulent and, consequently, more powerful. It also comes with its price in component wear, something to consider when looking into parts that increase stroke.

With a short stroke and a long rod, however, the piston accelerates more gently from TDC. It picks up its greatest speed further down the bore, at the point where the crank pin relative to the rod angle reaches 90 degrees. Since the pistons move from TDC slower, the entire bottom end absorbs less mechanical stress.

Advancing Toward A Thin Line
Even the short-stroke/long-rod combo has its limits. To accommodate extra rod length, some builders will move the piston pin higher into the slug, or opt for a deck plate. Either method requires an experienced wrench with access to a lot of custom parts.

Longer rods in a stroked motor can act to offset any increase in rod angle, but also requires a shorter piston. The deeper you dig into a piston to shorten it, the greater your odds of cutting into the oil ring groove and wreaking havoc with oil consumption. Most piston companies in the sport compact market engineer pistons with tighter ring packs and bridge rings to help avoid this problem.

Regardless of whether you take the stroker route or just run longer rods, you reach a point where you can no longer shorten a piston any further without compromising dependability.

Friendly Advice
Most engine builders believe longer rods are better, but a fringe of enthusiasts still dig the low-rpm torque that shorter rods can make. We advise builders who want a ratio of less than 1.6:1 to use the strongest aftermarket rods they can find, given the angle. We also recommend aftermarket sleeves to better fend off the lateral stress created by the rod angle.

Here's one last nugget to impress your friends with: a formula for calculating piston speed in feet or meters per second. The equation illustrates the point that the longer the stroke, the faster the piston travels at the same rpm.

Take a B16A2 vs. an H23. At 7000 rpm, the B16 slug moves 18 m/sec. At the same rpm, the H23 piston hauls additional ass-22 m/sec. Simply multiply stroke by rpm, and voil-minutes of endless doodling in class.

Stock Rod/Stroke Ratio Information For Some Popular Honda Engines
Block Rod length Stroke Rod ratio
D16A6, Z6, Y7, Y8 137mm 90mm 1.52:1
B16A1, A2, A3 134.4mm 77.4mm 1.74:1
B17A1 131.9mm 81.4mm 1.62:1
B18A1, B1, B20B4 137mm 89mm 1.54:1
B18C1, C5 138mm 87.2mm 1.58:1
H22A1 143mm 90.7mm 1.58:1
H23A1, A4 141.5mm 95mm 1.49:1
K20A, A2 139mm 86mm 1.62:1
K24A 152mm 99mm 1.54:1

by comparison:
block stroke rod ratio
L61 94.6mm 141mm 1.5:1
LSJ 86mm 144.84mm 1.68:1
LNF 86mm 144.84mm 1.68:1
LE5 99mm 143.7mm 1.45:1


you'll notice that the LSJ and the LNF have almost ideal r/s ratios.. (their r/s ratio is actually identical to the small block 350)

they're also very close to the K20A, and the K20A2.. which is starting to become a favorite amongst all motor honda enthusiasts, rivaling the B16A1/A2/A3 series in popularity

you can clearly see, since I'm looking for high rpm stability, top end breathing and less mechanical stress.. my bottom end selection is obvious






Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Monday, April 07, 2008 8:09 PM
Good info. Do you learn all this in your spare time?

If your going this much indept into 4 banger, i would love to see what you can do to a bigger engine. Say maybe a LSx series?



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Monday, April 07, 2008 8:12 PM
c'mon... i already have long hair.. the last thing I need to do is drive around an F body with an LSx in it to solidify the stereotype





Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Monday, April 07, 2008 8:29 PM
^^^ Nothing wrong with the Metal Hair


Yeah, it kinda bothers me when people start saying that their engine can rev higher because it is more "square" ( bore/ stroke ~ 1). It's always the normal force on the cylinder walls that you should be most concerned with when building a high rpm screamer, which is determined by the rod/stroke ratio.


-

"Youth in Asia"...I don't see anything wrong with that.
Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Monday, April 07, 2008 9:07 PM
You'll be safe, its the 3rd gen F-bodies and long hair that your thinking of. Plus there are the Corvettes and GTOs. Also LSx swap into a 2000ish S-10...........mmmmm





mmmmmm








Sorry i got cought up in a dream.



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Monday, April 07, 2008 9:08 PM
Quote:

c'mon... i already have long hair.. the last thing I need to do is drive around an F body with an LSx in it to solidify the stereotype

lmao. plus, why waste the ECO FTW hoodie?


Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 5:18 AM
good news on staying N/A

I would love to have a battle when your done lmao. but really.



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:50 AM
i'm anxious to try this out especially since i'm upgrading to a stand alone this year.. should be way easier to tune without thek ECUs BS



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:56 AM
And the primo reason i switched to the ecotec. ^^^^ can't wait to hear the new skwirl motor. i'm loving my eco.



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 8:48 AM
OK...so what are you planning sneaky man ..using the 2.4 crank to stroke it out?( which i have thought about) or simply changing your rods/ ratio..which i havnt learned enough of yet to try.....either way, i wish we could line up some time! too bad were so far apart



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 12:31 PM
its going to be an outright bottom end swap. the way the ecos are designed, you need to use the crank/rod/piston combination to avoid binding. The LE5 (2.4 eco) is a larger bore, so using their pistons in the LSJ or the L61 wouldn't be practical without sleeving the engine. (I don't think you can overbore 2mm with an L61 or LSJ without sleeving)

I've already set the wheels in motion... I'm starting the work this weekend.

And section8, if you goto the bash this year maybe we can get a couple of exhibition runs in I'd def love to run other FAST all motor Jbodies







Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 1:28 PM
dear lord, when your all done with this thing i dont even think you'll want to turbo it!!!!

i think it's a safe bet to say you should be doing at least mid 13's.



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:02 PM
^^ thats the initial goal. I have a feeling that even tho my compression ratio will be slightly less and slightly less displacement, I should make more power and this new bottom end with the same mods as '06 will be a LOT faster.

the kinsler ITBs are def on the to-do list before the bash... as well as a custom header. should be seeing almost 9000rpm or wherever the power needs to be.


at this rate, all motor is a lot of fun.. i don't see the skwirl being turbo for at least another season unless something doesn't work to my expectation or other issues arise.






Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 2:18 PM
Quote:

And section8, if you goto the bash this year maybe we can get a couple of exhibition runs in I'd def love to run other FAST all motor Jbodies


i will be at the lone star bash next week but i cant make it to the real bash up north its the same week as our biggest show of the season down here so i cant leave...but hopefully cavfan1 will be there and run in my place .. i wanna see video of that by the way !!!



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 3:28 PM
Read somewhere that someone is trying to built a classic Mopar Trenton-4 (That's the old, Iaccoca-era OHC 4-cyl) with a turbo & a 2.0:1 rod/stroke ratio. Supposedly the ratio is the most ideal for a F/I application.


Go beyond the "bolt-on".
Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 6:06 PM
so i guess a LG0 is safe to rev, after all it does have a 1MM shorter stroke than the feared LSJ........

i was about to go out side and take a look at one of my LG0 rods.... but got lazy... hasn't had a problem yet seeing 8200

but this damn J car ECM\EPROM cant do anything past 8100 or so.. besides with stock exhaust it doesn't pull past 7700 or so anyway.

GOOD READ.


Chris


'02 Z-24 Supercharged
13.7 @102.45 MPH Third Place, 2007 GMSC Bash SOLD AS OF 01MAR08

Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 6:24 PM
if you do measure the rod, it has to be from the center of the little end to the center of the big end then divide that by the stroke


the L61 in the skwirl has seen around 8000rpm but the torque curve on my dyno session showed that it would dip at a 45* angle or so after 5400ish rpm

this is because of the rod ratio. a bad ratio doesn't mean the engine won't be able to rev that high, but it'll put severe stress on the components and frictional losses as well as lack of breathing in the upper RPM will effect power pretty badly.

I think torque loss is what was the cause of such crappy HP numbers for the L61 at such an RPM.. not to mention my cam selection.







Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Tuesday, April 08, 2008 7:33 PM
Me and Slowolej had this discussion a while back. The LN2 rod-to-stroke (n) ratio is 1.63:1. We were looking at 5.7" rods instead of the 5.589" stockers. This would move the n up to 1.65:1, not a big change, but a change none-the-less. Slow was looking into the straight six rods, just machining the crank journal's thrust side to match the diameter of the LN2's rod throws and getting pistons made for the larger wrist pin diameter and higher pin centers.

Here's the article that got us started: Connecting Rod vs. Stroke Analysis






Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:22 PM
Threads like this are what I wish these forums were full of........



Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Wednesday, April 09, 2008 12:25 PM
bmxludwig wrote:Threads like this are what I wish these forums were full of........


i completely agree, posts like these are basically gems in disguise full of useful information.





Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Wednesday, April 09, 2008 3:27 PM
sorry to go off topic but what intake should i go with aem or an ebay one, im really liking the selection of colors from aem and i assume since it cost more it will give me more hp... haha





good read, glad to see some real threads once and awhile, anything more youd like to toss up here go right ahead pj, its good to learn something once and awhile. lately all ive been getting out of forums is that people are stupid and id love to be russle crow on south park and go fighting around the world... people piss me off







Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:12 PM
Wow! never thought i would see anyone discuss rod ratio on the JBO ....

Without another set of cam lobes your bottom end is going to suffer if u want to rev it to 9k.... ever heard a set of Toda Vtec Killers? Sounds wicked but they are a dog below 5000 rpm.


What are the specs on the cams u want to run for this screamer?


_________________________________________________________________
EFFICIENCY DETECTIVE
Fast cars. I respect them ALL. Brand elitism is for fanbois and benchracers

daily: 99 civic Si
deceased: 95 cavy '00 LD9 auto swap (vandalized)
Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:18 PM
i've thought about the cam timing which is why i picked up the gm cam gears

I have comp cams stage 3s going into the new head.. which has a powerband between 6500-8000

I was thinking of using the GM cam gears to retard both cams slightly to hopefully move power up, but I admit I'm not very experienced in cam tuning so it would be a trial and error type deal.

Quote:


-Street & Strip high RPM (Stage 3) Applications power from 3500-8000rpm .456 intake and .453 exhaust lift, 264 intake and 268 exhaust duration advertized (222 intake and 224 exhaust @ .050" duration) Requires computer modification very strong power over 5000 RPM


it'd basically by a dyno tune to get the cam timing right





Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:34 PM
want me to run that simulation in my engine dyno sim and see where the power is???


_________________________________________________________________
EFFICIENCY DETECTIVE
Fast cars. I respect them ALL. Brand elitism is for fanbois and benchracers

daily: 99 civic Si
deceased: 95 cavy '00 LD9 auto swap (vandalized)
Re: Rod ratio - good read!
Thursday, April 10, 2008 4:38 PM
yea sure if you want. I've done some desktop dyno tests and I have a pretty good bearing of whats gonna happen but lemme know what you can figure out





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