i'll post the site in a bit but basically u use the 2.2ohv cam in the 2200 block or if u have the 2.2ohv u use the 1.6 rockers from the 2200 ... i don't have the time to explain i'll be back later tonight to further discuss...my question is: what other modifications would be required to make these modification run smoothly

/discuss

Doesnt work..end of discussion.

http://www.projectwyldfyre.com/techarticles.html main page
for 2200 http://www.projectwyldfyre.com/tech/ln298/2200camsecret.html

for 2.2ohv http://www.projectwyldfyre.com/tech/ln295_97/2.2rockerarm.html

which part exactly are u stating would not work? and why? ur imput is useless at best please explain yourself, otherwise ur talking from ur arse

About 1/4 down, and here...

Damn newb..do some searching..geez

First off the 98-02 rockers are acually 1.54 ratio and not 1.6. Second the swap is refering to using 60deg v6 roller rockers 1.6 ratio. As for the cam..i cant say but i doubt it will be a good idea due to binding and such..People usually do one or the other. So take your piss ass attitude and learn to use the search

Philly D wrote:Doesnt work..end of discussion.

in truth what was this point of this post?

Philly D wrote:First off the 98-02 rockers are acually 1.54 ratio and not 1.6. Second the swap is refering to using 60deg v6 roller rockers 1.6 ratio. As for the cam..i cant say but i doubt it will be a good idea due to binding and such.

thank u

Philly D wrote:People usually do one or the other

um yeah? lol

Philly D wrote:So take your piss ass attitude and learn to use the search

nobody twists your arm to post on this site. i dont understand why people feel inclined to bitch about searching, if you don't want to discuss your car / passion / hobby then
/delete your account or /wrist either way i don't care. oh and congratulations you've sucessfully asserted your superiority over the internet /clap

i was under the impression the 2200 rockers were true 1.6 not 1.54, anyone actaully interested still : steves links are helpful thx

Your welcome! And thanks. I try not to be an e-thug. I like being useful. It usually come back to you. Be helpful, be helped. Its the golden rule people!

Quote:

for 2200 http://www.projectwyldfyre.com/tech/ln298/2200camsecret.html

Has been removed due to inaccurate info.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, November 26, 2007 7:47 PM

1.6 rockers in my 2.2ohv head = woot

but to clarify for all u 2200s the 2.2ohv cam seems to be a no no for u guys. hense please disregard this post as i got my info for this "secret cam" swap for the 2200 from kardains build site. (which he has deleted above for being inaccurate

I have plan on a complete build of a patriot head in a few months. Im going with 1.6:1 roller rockers, and a cam regrind. Larger valves, and GMPP ls6 springs! I'm aiming for 150 whp, but i might hit higher... Much higher. If I can get some higher compression pistons...

thats basically the route i'm going but i'm waiting on x-mas for supplies LOL
as a note my head blew a while ago and i had to get my head shaved to fix the warped head which increase my compression. i'm not sure how much they shaved cause we got a deal and there wasn;t paperwork given to us. but i would recommend it as i noticed a difference.. car seems to pull harder .. meh could be my imagination.

from what i've researched 0.75 is commo

thats basically the route i'm going but i'm waiting on x-mas for supplies LOL
as a note my head blew a while ago and i had to get my head shaved to fix the warped head which increase my compression. i'm not sure how much they shaved cause we got a deal and there wasn;t paperwork given to us. but i would recommend it as i noticed a difference.. car seems to pull harder .. meh could be my imagination.

from what i've researched 0.75 is common

woops..can;t delete > <

The later V6 60deg rockers are roller fulcrum, not full roller. I have an early set here which I'm sure are close to 1.5 ratio, and another later set which a V6 enthusiast swears are 1.6:1 ratio. I spent a fair amount of time one morning playing around with these on a spare 2.2 cylinder head.

The 660 rocker is a "net lash" rocker, meaning no adjustment is possible. The rocker is bolted down and that's that. The roller fulcrum rests on a pedestal, the pedestal in turn rests on the cylinder head and is keyed to the head to prevent the rocker from turning. A 10mm bolt is used and is retained in the pedestal by means of a knurled portion on the bolt creating an interference with the pedestal when you try and pull the bolt out.

The 2.2OHV head uses a stud with a 10mm thread for attaching to the head, and provides what appears to be at least an 11mm diameter surface for the pivot ball support. An 8mm nut is threaded onto the top of the stud to retain the pivot ball, and the stud is shouldered to provide a net lash valvetrain. Guide plates are sandwiched between the bottom of the stud and the head to prevent the rocker from turning.

Both of these designs provide a decent, inexpensive method for resisting unwanted flexing in the rocker arm retaining bolt/stud, something that a simple stud does not do.

Now... the 660 rocker fulcrum is fairly soft steel and can be drilled and cut rather easily. The same is true for the pivot in the center of the roller fulcrum. Unfortunately, after drilling the fulcrum large enough to fit over the 2.2 stud, the rocker design prevents the fulcrum from sitting on the stud correctly. Additionally, I was not able to shim the stud high enough out of the head to provide proper support for the rocker without disengaging so many threads that I couldn't trust the stud to stay in the head. The conclusion was 660 rocker + 2.2 stud = no success. I also tried several versions of modified pedestal, none of which had an indexing key. It's almost impossible to fasten the rocker squarely in line with the valve and pushrod opening, and without the key there's no guarantee that the rocker won't move and twist as the engine runs. Using a non-keyed rocker with a guideplate tends to force the pushrod against the guideplate which will cause accelerated wear and damage to those parts. Running without the guideplate or the key to locate the rocker is less than satisfactory as the roller fulcrum rocker is not allowed any misalignment or fore-aft rotation like the ball pivot design.

I realize that it's probably possible to install the 660 rocker by using the 10mm studs and nuts from the older 660 engine and knocking the bolt out of the later rocker, but I have to say that GM did go to the effort to design a relatively stable rocker mount and that it seems like taking a step backward to introduce extra monkey-motion by switching to the smaller 10mm studs without supporting shoulders.

The best solution from a technical standpoint is to machine keyways into the head and modify the height of the 660 pedestal so the rocker could be used as originally intended. Someone with machine shop experience and time could remove the 2.2 stud and guideplates, machine indexing keyways into the head, and adjust the height of the pedestal plus keys to provide the correct net lash settings. The investment in time makes the overall savings vs aftermarket rockers almost negative, meaning it would probably cost more to use the cheap rockers. The most practical answer seems to be install older studs, drop the rockers on 'em, and go.

If I ever do get around to actually installing the later arms, I'll be sure to report on whether or not they're greater than 1.5:1 ratio and what success, if any, I have. Hopefully anyone else will do the same.

-->Slow

actualy, it's the crankshaft notches that are diferent on 2.2 and 2200 ... if your cam has a notch for cam sensor, it should be fine.

i have a 95 cam in a 2200... but in a 1995 car... go to junkyard and compare both parts... you'll have the answer you're looking for

The '94 & older 2.2s were batch fire fuel injection, while the '96+ are sequential fire fuel injection. When GM changed to the 2200 design in '98 they changed the timing of the injectors, hence a change in the location of the timing notch. This caused the injectors to fire while the intake valves are closing, rather than during the opening. This hence caused the fuel to stgnate till the next valve opening, causing fuel puddling and incomplete, inconsistant fuel burn.

The 2200 will work in a '95, because the '95 PCM doesn't rely on the timing notch to time the firing of the injectors. The '95 2.2 didn't have a timing notch, '96 did, when they went to the sequntial fire FI.

I had the comp cam roller rockers in my '96, it was a good upgrade, improved top end power and pull, and also the power hit right away not that 1.5 second delay the stock engine had... at that time you couldn't put a cam in as well, too much lift but I'm sure someone's figured out how now, anyhow here's some info on the cam cams rocker setup, I'm pretty sure they have a set for the ohv now, before you had to break up sets for a V6 engine.

Here's colins e-mail to me, i didnt feel like hacking it up, so here goes...

---------------------

hey guys, heres the info you requested. please print this out. ive also
attached two pics, have to appologize about the hand drawing its late, you
get the picture....
colin.


Info for installing a set of roller rocker arms on gm 2.2L (L4)engines. And
gm 2.8L/3.1L 60 degree V6 engines

COMPETITION CAMS offers MAGNUM Roller Tip Rocker Arms. Available in a
1.52:1 (part #1413-12) and 1.6:1 (#1414-12) These rocker arms are a stiffer
construction rocker arm that have a roller tip that comp claims a 10-30 hp
increase over stock,-due to the increased stiffness and the reduced friction
of the roller tip. Id say more around 10hp at the most.
CRANE CAMS offers a full roller rocker. It is their GOLD RACE Extruded
Narrow Body roller rocker. (for 60* v6 and center bolt v8 engines) it is an
all aluminum needle bearing roller fulcrum and roller tip rocker. $$$ very
pricey. It is available in a 1.5:1 (#25750-12)and 1.6:1 ratio (25759-12) but
require cranes replacement nuts #99795 and studs 99148-12.
the comp rockers will work for the L4 engines, havn't tryed the crane ones
on the L4 engines yet. they should be no problem though.
All part numbers that have a -12 behind them are quantities of 12 (v6), for
the four cylinders I would look into seeing if you can get them in
quantities of 8.

2.2 L4 info
The cam lift of the 95-97 cams is .288" the amount of valve lift for the
different ratios are:
1.5 (stock)= .432" valve lift
1.52 =.4377" valve lift
1.6 =.4608" valve lift

v6 info
cam specs for a 92 3.1L
lobe lift intake .2626"
lobe lift exhaust .2732"
stock 1.5 = .3939"int. .4098"exh.
1.52 = .3991"int. .4152"exh.
1.6 = .420"int. .437"exh.

to find valve lift from any cam when using different rocker arms take the
known valve lift example .410" and divide by the rocker ratio 1.5 =
.273333333333 this is the cams lobe lift, then take the new ratio example
1.6 and multiply it by the lobe lift. .273" x 1.6 = .4373" valve lift. If
you only know the lobe lift of the cam just multiply it by the rocker ratio
to find valve lift.

If going with the comp cams rockers, The first thing you need to do for this
swap is get a set of M10 studs from a 2.8 v6, gm part number for these studs
is #476530. these studs were sourced from a 89 2.8L chevy celebrity. At my
dealership (in Canada) they retail for $5.55 each. V6's will need 12, four
cylinders will need 8 of them. The threads on these studs are
M10x1.5x9.9/M10x1x18 these are a fully adjustable stud that were used on the
v6s. these studs will compensate for the different ratio rocker. The stock
rocker studs are non-adjustable and are a M10x1.5x9.9/M8x1x.32 the M8
non-adjustable stud will NOT work with these rockers.
The comp cams rockers come with new 10mm nuts.
If using the crane full roller rockers then you need to get cranes studs
which have a M10x1.5x9.9/ 3/8x24 stud. And cranes nuts #99795.

If going with the 1.6 ratio rockers you will need a set of aftermarket high
performance valve springs to accommodate the higher lift. New pushrods are a
must, as the old pushrods and rockers have worn specifically to each other
and using old pushrods with new rockers can cause premature wear along with
voiding the warranty of the rocker arms from the company. Factory pushrods
will work fine.

VALVE ADJUSTMENT:
You must find top dead center (tdc) for piston number one. you can do this
by removing the spark plug and by hand turning the engine over at the crank
pully until number one is at the top of the cylinder, use a screw driver in
the plug hole to feel the piston. While cranking the engine over pay
attention to the rocker arms, if when the piston is moving up towards tdc
and both rocker arms are not moving then the engine is on number one firing
position if one of the rockers moves while coming up to tdc then the engine
is on number four firing position, and needs to be cranked over one complete
revolution. To make things easier while at tdc for number one piston use a
paint marker or a center punch to make a refrence mark on the crank pully
and timing cover. This will make finding tdc for number four easier to line
up. Now remove your old rockers, replace the studs, and pushrods.

PROCEDURE FOR L4 ENGINES:
With number one piston on the firing position at tdc install the rockers on
the studs, the valves that can be adjusted are:
EXHAUST: 1, 3
INTAKE: 1, 2

Tighten in the adjusting nuts until all lash is removed. This can be
determined by rotating the pushrod while turning in the adjusting nut. Once
the play has been removed, turn in the adjusting nut one-half turns to
center the lifter plunger. Now crank the engine over one complete revolution
to number four firing position. These valves can now be adjusted:

EXHAUST: 2, 4
INTAKE: 3, 4

Install your rocker cover.

ADUSTMENT PROCEDURE FOR V6 ENGINES:

With number one piston on the firing position at tdc install the rockers on
the studs, the valves that can be adjusted are:
EXHAUST: 1, 2, 3
INTAKE: 1, 5, 6

Tighten in the adjusting nuts until all lash is removed. This can be
determined by rotating the pushrod while turning in the adjusting nut. Once
the play has been removed, turn in the adjusting nut one-half turns to
center the lifter plunger. Now crank the engine over one complete revolution
to number four firing position. These valves can now be adjusted:

EXHAUST: 4, 5, 6
INTAKE: 2, 3, 4

I have done this swap with comp cams magnum roller rockers on my 92 sunbird
GT. I used the 1.52:1 ratio rockers.
I have yet to perform this procedure on a L4 engine but the info I have
researched for this was for a friend of mine, he has yet to do the new
rocker arms.
I am not responsible for any damage to engine parts if proper procedures and
such are not followed.

Colin
V6performance@hotmail.com

-------------

Jeff, the PN for the studs is - #476530 - we'd need 8 each, so i guess if we got 2 sets of the V6 rockers, and split it 3 ways, we'd need 24... Also, Colin reccomends Pushrods, so, stock pushrods for a 2.2, look for them aswell, and see what kinda price we can get for 8 each...

Looks like the Rockers come with nuts... so i guess thats covered...

Long e-mail, but worth a read...
Gus...





Don't buy from MANTAPART!!

MadJack wrote:The '94 & older 2.2s were batch fire fuel injection, while the '96+ are sequential fire fuel injection. When GM changed to the 2200 design in '98 they changed the timing of the injectors, hence a change in the location of the timing notch. This caused the injectors to fire while the intake valves are closing, rather than during the opening. This hence caused the fuel to stgnate till the next valve opening, causing fuel puddling and incomplete, inconsistant fuel burn.

The 2200 will work in a '95, because the '95 PCM doesn't rely on the timing notch to time the firing of the injectors. The '95 2.2 didn't have a timing notch, '96 did, when they went to the sequntial fire FI.

yes, but the timing notch that was moved was on the crank, not on the cam

Correct, AM. In '98 the crank-trigger notches were advanced .450-.500" according to my resources. While Jack is right, you can use a 2200 crank in a '95 because the batch-fire system doesn't rely on a cam-trigger in conjunction with a crank-trigger to tell when to fire individual injectors (Cause batch-fire don't work like that!), it seems he overlooked that the advanced trigger synchs also effect the DIS causing the plugs to fire sooner as well. If this crank were to be used in a application that lacked a knock sensor (LIke my truck), unless a higher octane fuel is used or the computer's PROM spark curve reprogramed to compensate for the advanced synchs we're looking at a nightmare of knocking going on. Heck, on the same note, I got to know a lady who had one of the first "Aero-body" LeBaron's w/ a Turbo 2.2 (Stay with me on this...). Although it had a advanced knock control system to it's engine management, because she ran low-buck fuel in it (I'm guessing Speedway 87-octane), the SMEC or ECM as most would commonly refer to it as had a nervous breakdown so-to-speak trying to compensate for the fuel's octane relative to the boost level the engine saw (5-10psi max.). She ended-up taking it in to be serviced by the dealer (It was a new car at the time) and being told by the servicemaster that she ran the wrong fuel in it, which is what caused the breakdown. He replaced the SMEC and told her that her car was meant (Tuned from the factory) to run on Shell SU2000 93-octane premium unleaded and that's all she should put in the car. She heeded his words, and never had a problem since with it during the many years she owned the car. So guys, do you see the complications that arrise, the solutions that need to be taken and the importance of taking said solutions? I hope so, 'cause I'd sure hate to hafta type this all-over again or have it ignored.

Go beyond the "bolt-on".

okay wait can someone tell me. what rockers will bolt right up to the 2.2l i have in my 92. and would give me the best performance and for cheep. like i hurd out of a eagel talon? do they work?

are you kidding me of all the rocker threads in this board this is the post you bought back from the dead

search 2.2 rocker swap

if you read above it says the 60 degree V6 rockers if you don't know what that is go back to the nebie section, little FYI for you if you buy the V8 kit you can sell the 8 extra as a complete set insted of only having 4 extra rockers

SEARCH



JBO since July 30, 2001

NOTa2_4 wrote:are you kidding me of all the rocker threads in this board this is the post you bought back from the dead

search 2.2 rocker swap

if you read above it says the 60 degree V6 rockers if you don't know what that is go back to the nebie section, little FYI for you if you buy the V8 kit you can sell the 8 extra as a complete set insted of only having 4 extra rockers

SEARCH

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Hey... Wasn't MadJack going to check & compare the timing (degrees) of the notches on the trigger-wheel of the '96-'97 to those on the '98-later cam? What up on that, Jack?


Go beyond the "bolt-on".

Jack is 2.2 god.

Here's a thought: If the degreeing on the later cam's trigger-wheel notches are really different relative to the intake lobes opening-ramp, we should just be able to just eyeball it... Like with the ones on the crank! Besides, the cam's triggers just help with keeping the sequence of the injector firings... Not the timing of them!


Go beyond the "bolt-on".