lets say I have a possible line on a brand new motor ( like taken off the truck, and taken out ) out of the solstice/sky for CHEAP... like stupid cheap..
i know this is not a plug and play operation, and I would have some issues to overcome ( like the reluctor wheel thing)
anything else that would prevent this from happening?
tranny, sensors, etc...
yes i would be wanting to keep my supercharger...
I guess I'm just putting out a feeler thread... I can handle mechanial snafus, and I do have a friend willing to help with the electrical side of things, but I need at least a basic idea of what I am looking at here...
any input is greatly appreciated...
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no control for cam timing
not sure if there will be any clutch issues or which flywheel to use
oil cooler if it has 1 , cam sensor
no one has done it yet
is there anything stopping me from using the ecm for the 2.4?
worst case senario, does anyone know if the pistons and rods will work in a 2.2 motor? I asume the extra .2 l comes from the crank...
i know he 2.0 internals will swap over. i wonder if this is the same...
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from what I know, the 58x reluctor is cast into the crank, so no getting around that unless you find an aftermarket crank for the LE5.
as far as using the ECU, I'd highly doubt it would work due to the BCM and such from the j-body.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
If you're going to use the pistons and rods, you'll have to swap the crank over too.
the 2.4 uses a different stroke and bore over the 2.2 and 2.0 , nothing will swap unless your gonna built a stroker , kinda pointless
and there is no way to use the electronics , with out using 100% of it from the donor car
I think this swap can be done, and not be as totally hard as some think (of course I could be wrong as well). You would need to use the ECU from the 2.4, and engine bay wiring. Might have to see about using the BCM from the 2.4 as well. The way I see it is if you can put a GTP motor in a J you can put this motor in as well.
FU Tuning
if I were you this is what I'd do...
use the 2.4 bottom end with the 2.2 top end. swap over as many sensors from the 2.2 as you can. the oil pan may have to be swapped for the 2.2 pan so it works with the jbody trans. stand alone is the only way around the reluctor ring.. unless you run an MSD setup with an external crank trigger
Quote:
L61(2.2L)
140hp 150tq
86mm bore x 94.6mm stroke
the engine that started it all. first introduced to the Jbody in model year 2002 as the LS sport engine along side the 2200 OHV and 2.4 LD9. By the 2003 model year, it was the only powerplant available for the Jbody up until the end of production in summer of 2005.
-in the Jbody, the L61 comes with either the 4t40e or the getrag F23-M86 5 speed transmission.
-the L61 in the jbody has a 7 tooth reluctor wheel. the reluctor wheel is a cast section of the crankshaft that tells the ecu when to fire the ignition. This cannot be removed, swapped, or otherwise changed.
!!!THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT IF YOU PLAN ON RETAINING THE FACTORY ECU FOR ENGINE MANAGEMENT!!!
-rods and pistons are not known for strength, especially under boosted applications. Forged rods and pistons are not required, however encouraged (especially for turbo)
tidbits:
*the lsj supercharger and manifold is an ALMOST direct bolt-on for the L61. an adapter bracket for the throttle body and a part of the block by the pullies needs to be shaved down in order for it to be bolted on.
*all exhaust manifolds will physically fit on all ecotecs... however due to differing models' constructions, downpipes may be incompatible.
*the L61 in the Jbody has a return fuel injection system. All newer L61s as well as the LE5 and the LSJ use a returnless fuel injection system. the LNF uses a direct-injection system, much like a diesel
*as per GM racing research, the L61 head has a tendency to blow outward of #1 and #4 cylinders at around 500hp. This has yet to be confirmed.
the descendents of the (and including model year 2006 and higher L61 engines) L61 all adapted a "high resolution ignition system" that replaces the 7tooth reluctor with a 58tooth reluctor. this is what makes direct swaps to other ecotec engines impossible for a factory computer.
Quote:
LE5 (2.4L)
170hp 165tq
88mm bore x 99mm stroke
found in cobalt SS (non s/c), solstice, sky, malibu, HHR, and numerous other GM small cars
the big gun of the group, the 2.4 has an 88mm bore and a whopping 99mm stroke. It was also the first ecotec to implement variable valve timing.
tidbits:
-the LE5 has not only larger displacement, but slightly higher compression than the L61 at 10.4:1
-the LE5 (like the other siblings of the L61) comes with strengthened rods and crankshaft
-the LE5 also includes piston cooling oil jets that continously spray the underside of the pistons with oil to help keep them cool, and less prone to detonation.
Quote:
common features across all ecotec engines:
block structure has same girdle construction whereas the crank is sandwiched between two "halves" of the block. the oil pan is structural in construction. engine is all aluminum, and fully dressed is the lightest engines GM has ever produced. Manifolds are all directly interchangeable. Heads are swappable between all blocks, however head design is different between engines, so cam swaps are only possible between the L61 and LSJ. the LE5 is not similar enough to the L61 and LSJ, and the LNF is completely different due to direct injection.
not to mention all descendents of the L61 have digital sensors, not analog.. so that may or may not prove to be a problem when hybriding the two
keep in mind, the 2.4 with its larger bore feeding into a 2.2 combustion chamber will in effect RAISE compression. so 10.4:1 for a stock LE5 will be probably closer to 11:1 with an LE5 bottomend and an L61 head.
be sure to check your piston-to-deck height clearance. if its similar to the L61, valve interference won't be a problem.
but since it has yet to be done, checking valve clearances with whatever cams you may run is more than a good idea.
you also need an LE5 headgasket in order to clear the 88mm bore.
John Higgins wrote:I think this swap can be done, and not be as totally hard as some think (of course I could be wrong as well). You would need to use the ECU from the 2.4, and engine bay wiring. Might have to see about using the BCM from the 2.4 as well. The way I see it is if you can put a GTP motor in a J you can put this motor in as well.
not true , the gtps use the same basic protocol that our cars do
in 05 GM changed that protocol , so no real way of having our system and theirs talking the same language
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote:not to mention all descendents of the L61 have digital sensors, not analog.. so that may or may not prove to be a problem when hybriding the two
I'm curious as to if the sensors are analog at one point, and then go through a DAC for conversion for the PCM.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
DaFlyinSkwirl (PJ) - BPU++ wrote:if I were you this is what I'd do...
use the 2.4 bottom end with the 2.2 top end. swap over as many sensors from the 2.2 as you can. the oil pan may have to be swapped for the 2.2 pan so it works with the jbody trans. stand alone is the only way around the reluctor ring.. unless you run an MSD setup with an external crank trigger
Quote:
L61(2.2L)
140hp 150tq
86mm bore x 94.6mm stroke
the engine that started it all. first introduced to the Jbody in model year 2002 as the LS sport engine along side the 2200 OHV and 2.4 LD9. By the 2003 model year, it was the only powerplant available for the Jbody up until the end of production in summer of 2005.
-in the Jbody, the L61 comes with either the 4t40e or the getrag F23-M86 5 speed transmission.
-the L61 in the jbody has a 7 tooth reluctor wheel. the reluctor wheel is a cast section of the crankshaft that tells the ecu when to fire the ignition. This cannot be removed, swapped, or otherwise changed.
!!!THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT IF YOU PLAN ON RETAINING THE FACTORY ECU FOR ENGINE MANAGEMENT!!!
-rods and pistons are not known for strength, especially under boosted applications. Forged rods and pistons are not required, however encouraged (especially for turbo)
tidbits:
*the lsj supercharger and manifold is an ALMOST direct bolt-on for the L61. an adapter bracket for the throttle body and a part of the block by the pullies needs to be shaved down in order for it to be bolted on.
*all exhaust manifolds will physically fit on all ecotecs... however due to differing models' constructions, downpipes may be incompatible.
*the L61 in the Jbody has a return fuel injection system. All newer L61s as well as the LE5 and the LSJ use a returnless fuel injection system. the LNF uses a direct-injection system, much like a diesel
*as per GM racing research, the L61 head has a tendency to blow outward of #1 and #4 cylinders at around 500hp. This has yet to be confirmed.
the descendents of the (and including model year 2006 and higher L61 engines) L61 all adapted a "high resolution ignition system" that replaces the 7tooth reluctor with a 58tooth reluctor. this is what makes direct swaps to other ecotec engines impossible for a factory computer.
Quote:
LE5 (2.4L)
170hp 165tq
88mm bore x 99mm stroke
found in cobalt SS (non s/c), solstice, sky, malibu, HHR, and numerous other GM small cars
the big gun of the group, the 2.4 has an 88mm bore and a whopping 99mm stroke. It was also the first ecotec to implement variable valve timing.
tidbits:
-the LE5 has not only larger displacement, but slightly higher compression than the L61 at 10.4:1
-the LE5 (like the other siblings of the L61) comes with strengthened rods and crankshaft
-the LE5 also includes piston cooling oil jets that continously spray the underside of the pistons with oil to help keep them cool, and less prone to detonation.
Quote:
common features across all ecotec engines:
block structure has same girdle construction whereas the crank is sandwiched between two "halves" of the block. the oil pan is structural in construction. engine is all aluminum, and fully dressed is the lightest engines GM has ever produced. Manifolds are all directly interchangeable. Heads are swappable between all blocks, however head design is different between engines, so cam swaps are only possible between the L61 and LSJ. the LE5 is not similar enough to the L61 and LSJ, and the LNF is completely different due to direct injection.
not to mention all descendents of the L61 have digital sensors, not analog.. so that may or may not prove to be a problem when hybriding the two
keep in mind, the 2.4 with its larger bore feeding into a 2.2 combustion chamber will in effect RAISE compression. so 10.4:1 for a stock LE5 will be probably closer to 11:1 with an LE5 bottomend and an L61 head.
be sure to check your piston-to-deck height clearance. if its similar to the L61, valve interference won't be a problem.
but since it has yet to be done, checking valve clearances with whatever cams you may run is more than a good idea.
you also need an LE5 headgasket in order to clear the 88mm bore.
It started in 1999 as a 2000 model in the Saturn LS.
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Quote:
first introduced to the Jbody in model year 2002
how is that an incorrect? re-read the quote...
the engine itself was avaialable earlier, but it wasn't in the jbody until the 2002 M.Y. hence "first introduced to the JBODY"
and the 2002 M.Y. were available in 2001
[quote=97cavie24ls(™)]
John Higgins wrote:I think this swap can be done, and not be as totally hard as some think (of course I could be wrong as well). You would need to use the ECU from the 2.4, and engine bay wiring. Might have to see about using the BCM from the 2.4 as well. The way I see it is if you can put a GTP motor in a J you can put this motor in as well.
not true , the gtps use the same basic protocol that our cars do
in 05 GM changed that protocol , so no real way of having our system and theirs talking the same language
Ok let me say it this way. Get a wrecked cobalt, or HHR, or something with a 2.4 swap everything into a J. It can be done, just a matter of someone doing it.
FU Tuning
The only thing I see stopping you from running the 2.4 Eco w/ the 2.2 Eco ECM is the crank signal..... get around that, and you should be fine. (Might not have the Variable Valve timing.... but who needs that?
)
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W41 BOI -
'78 Buick Opel Isuzu W41 Swap
my thought was exactly what pj suggested....
if i can get around ignition, is there anything else to stop me?
my though process is to try and retain the factory ecu first, and try a msd setup... and bolt on my head
wouldnt i essentially be building a stroker with stronger than stock internals?
In all reality going to a msd isnt exactly a bad thing anyway....
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the stock 2.4 bottom end has shown be hold more power than the 2.2 does , hahn has pushed the 2.4 in the realm of 400hp
id use a ported head though , and double check the compression is in the range you want it
the crank sensor will be the biggest hurdle
yes. the ignition system needs to know what piston is where. easiest way to do it is to know where the crank is.
Desert Tuners
“When you come across a big kettle of crazy, it’s best not to stir it.”
sorry i worded that wrong, is the ignition the only thing that uses the crank sensor for information?
if so, would running a external sensor with an msd like pj mentioned be possible?
I am still not opposed to using everything out of a delta... but obviously i would rather take the easyer road...
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anyone know where to pind pictures of the botom end of both motors? either real, or acurate exploded diagram views?
i'm wondering if it is at all possible to throw in the crank from the 2.2.... i would still have the same durability, but stroke would be less, thus reducing compression, which isn't bad for my application anyway...
it would be quite the hybrid motor, but basicly taking the best from both worlds...
i would really rather run the complete 2.4 motor though... as i know it is a proven performer in boosted applications
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I wanna either take the rods & pistons out of the 2.4 or the SS/SC motor to use in the CavFire... that way I can get some cheaper forged pistons & rods... dunno all the details about stroke & such but thats how I'd like to do it...
Keep lookin but can't seem to find the LSJ or the Le5 parts used anywhere I'd like =-x Stupid high demand BS, lol
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Best ET to Date: 14.251 @ 98.51 mph. 13's or Bust Baby!
lsj would work, same bore, but different stroke, le5 will not work in your l61... for what it would cost you, to just do that you are prob. better off finding a good deal on aftermarket pistons and rods...
durability is not the only reason i want to go this route...
there are numerous reasons...
#1- cost, there is a GOOD chance i can get one if not more than one for cheap.. brand new motors, that were taken out of solstice and sky roadsters in favor of something else..
#2- proven performance
#3- proven durability
#4- just cause... my car is different as it is, i wanna take it farther, There is a certian charm about using parts from factory cars, to make a hybrid monster that i got on the cheap, all while retaining a "factory look"
I would love to use as much of the factory motor as possible for the above reasons, but I am not opposed to doing what i have to do to make it work, as long as it CAN work, and the cost doesn't outweigh the gain...
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right thats why i'm tryin to find a trashed redline or cobalt ss that I can gut... which is provin to be a big issue, LOL... thank god i'm patient =D
So if you come across any LSJ motors that can have the pistons/rods pulled from, keep me in mind
GL with ur project, I'd love to do the same with mine since I am strivin to be diff aswell, but cost to me is an issue atm, good thing I seem to find a lot of good deals in aftermarket parts, lol.
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Best ET to Date: 14.251 @ 98.51 mph. 13's or Bust Baby!
