Well, as it seems just about everyone says, the 2.2l cav motor isnt realy worth putting preformance mods on. Is this true? What makes it such an inferior base motor to the 2.4? Thanks
jacob
It's OHV, so it only runs 2 valves per cylinder. Mainly I think it's mostly the problem with the engine having little flow. On top of that there isn't much aftermarket support for it. Then the internals of the engine is pretty weak so when you boost it, it'll probably blow up.
Well, i forgot to mention that I want to run it N/A. I guess i was talking more about the reason that not many ppl do this to the 2.2. Im not a fan of boasting it just beacause of that possiblity throwing a rod or something of that manor.
Any other reason other than the afor-mentioned?
I'm guessing you have a 98 based on your screen name. The 98 has support for HP tuners, which will be your main method of making a good N/A power car with the 2.2
You'll obviously need to put higher Compression ratio pistons in, and run premium gas. You'd need to port the head to increase flow, and put a camshaft in there. While i was in the bottom end, i'd put eagle rods in it too.
I think with that, you'd have a decent N/A motor. 200 hp.. maybe? all depends on the cam, airflow, and hp tuners to tune it.
You can make some good power with a 2200, you just need to put more money into it than one of the more powerful J motors.
Im doing an n/a setup as well, but Im not going to change the bottom end around, on account of using the car as trade-in in a year or so.
Well, that was another question I had but didnt put in my orginal post. Would it be cost effectife to do an engine swap to the more liked 2.4 motor?
its old pushrod technology that most people don't want to deal with (yes I know LSX motors make good power being OHV) and when ya barely got 100 hp to start with...you're just really far behind when you start out. Sure...some want to prove you can do it with a 2.2....I just don't understand the point. We each spend 3k on a motor, you make 150 hp now, I'm making 230-250....mine's boosted, yours is N/A...who really wins? granted...props you made an additional 50hp n/a....but I'm still faster...lol
you can pick a used eco up for less than 1K and swap it in. Much better starting point.
-Chris
Matt Linke wrote:You can make some good power with a 2200, you just need to put more money into it than one of the more powerful J motors.
Im doing an n/a setup as well, but Im not going to change the bottom end around, on account of using the car as trade-in in a year or so.
Care to defend that statement? The only thing we've really seen break on a boosted 2200 is piston ring lands (and we've NEVER seen that on an ECO, right?
), and the majority of those failures were before the advent of HPTuners when the best "tuning" anyone had was an fmu and no one was doing squat to change ignition timing. I sitll have never seen nor heard of an OHV 2.2 breaking a rod, but its well documented that the eco's rods have a nasty tendency to snap at 250 plus. Meanwhile we have guys like Cavattack making 244 on a stock OHV motor (and that was a while ago, I know he's put on a bigger turbo since but haven't heard any new dyno numbers) for a pretty long stretch of time. Most of the eco's i've seen in that hp range have had to replace cracked pistons within a few months.
As for the eco swap being cheaper? Maybe... depends on what prices you can get on things and how fast you ultimately want to go. If you want to be fast all motor, admittedly, you can do a lot more with an eco with a stock bottom end than you can with the OHV. As for boost, if you want some crazy 450+ whp setup than yeah, even i'd have to agree that in the end, the eco swap will be more economical. But for 300-350 hp? Which is plenty for 80% of people just looking for a fast street car, the OHV will do just fine. The reason why thus far the OHV hasn't faired well against the 2.4 or Eco is valvetrain. Stock spring pressure is pathetically low, which then limits you both on cam lift, ramp rate, and maximum RPM. If an eco and an OHV make the same amount of hp, without valvetrain upgrades, the OHV will lose because the eco has several hundred more RPM to rev than the OHV does, but both engines come equipped with the same gearing. Its a matter of powerband. The problem is, the OHV doesn't have as much valvetrain aftermarket as the eco and 2.4. The only aftermarket retainers and locks that I know of specifically for the OHV came from JBP, and they didn't work with the Crane rockers, hence, few want to use them. I believe though that SlowOleJ or Madjack (or both, I'm tracking so many peoples projects I'm sure I'm getting some confused) are using the stock retainers and locks with LS(X) springs and hybrid 2.2/LT1 lifters. Since the OHV shares quite a few similarities with the small block chevy, its not as bad off as it could be.
However, as far as bottom end is concerned, the OHV is no weaker than the eco within the realm of STREETable horsepower and torque. And last i checked, a set of rods and pistons for an OHV is only (ballpark) $800-900 so really, by building the OHV you can have a motor stronger than the eco for the same or less money in the long run. Because the way I see it is, the OHV stock motor is good to 250hp. The eco is only good to about 250hp. Swap in the eco, and want to make more than 250 hp, you have to build it. SO you pay $1000 for the swap (if you can get it that cheap, typically, when you add up all the small things that cost can rise significantly... but i guess it can with a motor build too), then you have to pay the $800-900 for pistons and rods anyway, when you could have just stuffed them into the OHV and then put that $1000 you would have spent on the swap into the head and valvetrain or a turbo setup.
Theres just a lot of all-around misinformation in this thread:
2 valves per cylinder... So what? So are most V8's, and so was the 2.2/2.5 turbo Dodge motors that run 11's and 12's in the 1/4 if you so much as look at them the wrong way.
Makes 100 hp stock.... The point here is what? The biggest reason for the OHV's output being so low is that GM used it as their fuel efficiency and cheap manufacturing workhorse. The hardware is meant for the lowest common denominator as far as the user goes. The eco "only" makes about 125-135 whp stock, but watch what happens when you port the head and change the cams. The OHV is no different. Outside of the SBC, the 2.2 and its predecessors are probably the highest volume motors GM has built, meaning you can find them everywhere. Even with the restrictions in the head and valvetrain, I still see OHV motors pretty much matching up with eco's when you compare psi-to-psi on turbo motors.
Another advantage to the OHV is this.... Say you do blow it up, and you need a new one. Stock OHV's can be found in the yards for $100-200. Eco's- $500. Need a spare OHV head to send out for porting? $50. Eco?- $200+.
My advice is, take $200, find a decent rebuildable junkyard engine, and use it as a learning experience. Buy pistons and rods, and more importantly some shop manuals and instructional books and such, and learn how to build a powerplant from the inside out. If you have questions on valvetrain and head stuff, there are plenty of people around here that can help. If you look up "OHV Lifters" or look for a thread with a similar title under my username, you'll find the thread where SlowOleJ revealed his hybrid lifter setup. Any of SlowOleJ's threads about his buildup will be infinitely valuable to you as well. Madjack is another good guy to talk to, as are OHV Notec and JuicedZ4. These are the guys i consider to be the authorities on all things OHV. Just take your time and learn as you go. The average person on this forum comes here with MAYBE enough mechanical know-how to install a cold air intake and an exhaust. By building a motor you will learn the ins and outs of your car better, as well as feel pride in being able to say that you did it yourself. Just take your time with it and do a lot of reading on this forum and any other sources you might find.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Uhh. Care to defend. The 2.2 Heads flow like garbage. Fix that. WIth a full port, and going crazy on the cam, still won't even yeild you 100 horse / liter which is a fundamental benchmark for NA tuning.
SHOoff wrote:Then the internals of the engine is pretty weak so when you boost it, it'll probably blow up.
There has not been one single example of this on these boards in the 5-6 years I've been trolling/posting. The only thing close has been timing set failures due to inadequate oil change periods, and a couple *claimed" spun bearings (from people who wouldn't know a pushrod from a connecting rod). I can't say the same for the other motors.
The rods have enough meat, the crank seems to be rock-solid...open the compression ring gap up and add some ARP head studs and the motor is more than enough for any daily driver here.
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:I'm pretty much the only person who's posted in this thread so far with half a lick of common sense
agreed
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:Any of SlowOleJ's threads about his buildup will be infinitely valuable to you as well. Madjack is another good guy to talk to, as are OHV Notec and JuicedZ4. These are the guys i consider to be the authorities on all things OHV.
Thanks for the plug. Now somebody buy the head I have for sale in the classifieds lol.
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:Just take your time and learn as you go. The average person on this forum comes here with MAYBE enough mechanical know-how to install a cold air intake and an exhaust. By building a motor you will learn the ins and outs of your car better, as well as feel pride in being able to say that you did it yourself. Just take your time with it and do a lot of reading on this forum and any other sources you might find.
Well-said. Tearing apart and putting back together my motor has undoubtedly been the most valuable learning experience I can recall, and doing it on an OHV is just SOOO much easier (OHC FTL
)
Beau wrote:Uhh. Care to defend. The 2.2 Heads flow like garbage. Fix that. WIth a full port, and going crazy on the cam, still won't even yeild you 100 horse / liter which is a fundamental benchmark for NA tuning.
Haven't seen that out of an LD9 or ECO either...what's your point?
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Quote:
You can make some good power with a 2200, you just need to put more money into it than one of the more powerful J motors.
If you were to buy parts for your OHV versus your Ecotec, you have to consider that even though you may have to do a few more mods to keep up with an ecotec in the beginning, that when you are building your head, theres almost half as many parts to buy. If you want to buy vavles for your ohv, you only need 8, versus 16 on your ecotec, 1 camshaft, not 2 etc...
OHV was GMs pride motors for years.... they are built well, more towards reliabliltiy and economy, versus your 2.4DOHC was built for its performance, and lacking in reliabilty/economy for the most part.. The OHV was looked at as more of a pain to modify because maybe it does take alot of work to get some good perfomance of it... along with what you have to take into consideration (no offence to anyone that has done it) but everyone is swapping in ecotecs as it is a great all around motor. Its economical/reliable/and has decent performance... but i would guarantee that many are just following what everyone else is doing, like most of these sites are. Hey if so&so is doing it, maybe it is a good idea... Everyone falls into a categry where they want to "fit in" and then you turn around and everyone has the same mods... etc... Im not necesarily saying thats what everyone is doing, but you have to take a step back and think to yourself what you want. not what everyone else will like and pride you on. I see so many times people asking should i do this or that... its your car, who cares what everyone else thinks. Opinions are fine and everything, but what it comes down to is this is a hobby (for most), and this is to make YOU happy, and only you in the long run.
My car came with an OHV, so im building it. Im really interested as to what it can put out. Even tho so many have said not to waste my time and to simply drop in an ecotec. But as scarab mentioned, this motor has potential, its block is just as strong as any eco block. It just needs a lil TLC
Scarab thats awesome info, as im building my OHV right now, it makes me feel ever so slightly more confident in my motor
Ive considered that, runnin down to the local yard and getting a another 2.2 just to learn on. You say they usualy run about 100$ or so? Thats not bad, and as it seems, I should learn quite a bit from it. Im kinda like what you said, im not THAT knowlegable when it comes to my ride, but I want to be. If spending allilte cash to do so, then so be it. What types of manuals and books do I need? I have the Haynes Repair Manual for the cav. What other sourse of material do I need?
98aquacav - wrote:Ive considered that, runnin down to the local yard and getting a another 2.2 just to learn on. You say they usualy run about 100$ or so? Thats not bad, and as it seems, I should learn quite a bit from it. Im kinda like what you said, im not THAT knowlegable when it comes to my ride, but I want to be. If spending allilte cash to do so, then so be it. What types of manuals and books do I need? I have the Haynes Repair Manual for the cav. What other sourse of material do I need?
The internet, and a lot of reading time. Read articles from REAL magazine sites (Hot Rod, Chevy High Performance, Circle Track, ...but not SCC, Import Tuner, and all the others filled with misleading and ill-sponsored info), they have a lot of good technical write-ups. Also, check out information on cam grinders' sites like Crane, Comp, etc. They give lots of info on everything valvetrain, spring pressures, installed heights, tolerences, applications, and proper matching. For porting, read the Standard Abrasives tutorial. Finally, check out all the past OHV threads in the performance forum here. In the last few posts, Jack has linked to the best ones.
fortune cookie say: better a delay than a disaster
Quote:
its old pushrod technology that most people don't want to deal with
This thinking is exactly why the LD9 engines exist. Chevrolet was and is committed to making pushrod power. They're doing it well. But the "small car crowd" can't seem to get over the idea that you need 2 cams and 16 valves or else you don't have a "good" four cylinder engine. As to the power levels, the lower rating of the OHV engine is not because there is a flaw in OHV technology as some people believe. It's consumer perception. Who would buy the more expensive Z24 if the "base" cavalier made the same amount of power??? And if the DOHC engine didn't make any more power than the OHV, how many people would take it to mean the DOHC engine is junk? Read up on the Buick Grand National in 86 and 87 to see how GM underrated that car so it wouldn't look like the Corvette killer it really was.
Quote:
You can make some good power with a 2200, you just need to put more money into it than one of the more powerful J motors.
I'm building my 2.2 to prove that good streetable power is not tied to cubic dollars. I've got about $250 into the head so far, with full stainless oversize valves, bronze guides, and performance springs. Porting shop expenses will make the total higher, but the information from the flow bench will only add to the collective knowledge of the OHV crowd. What I do have is time... lots and lots of time, same as any of the other OHV contributors. Hell, if I had $3K to throw around I'd have me one screamin' OHV engine. I'm looking at a total budget of 1/3 that amount, and I'm really shooting for less.
Quote:
Ive considered that, runnin down to the local yard and getting a another 2.2 just to learn on. You say they usualy run about 100$ or so?
Make sure you ask for a "rebuildable core" when you ask for prices. This lets the junkyard know they don't have to worry about cutting fuel lines or wires (makes it fast to remove the engine) and that they don't have to warranty it if it doesn't run. They'll likely keep the alternator and starter and maybe a few other non-essential goodies to sell. I just bought a 78k mile "core" engine for $150 removed, and with only a timing belt, water pump, and new pan gasket it's installed and running.
BTW, if anyone wants to scream about how a DOHC engine is inherently better, let me point out that the SOHC engine used in the early Pontiac J cars is also available in many European and South American cars as well as Daewoos in a DOHC version (Says GM right on the block!), where it makes a whopping 128 hp and 136 ft/lbs of torque. Some screamer that one is compared to the OHV's 120 hp and 130 ft/lbs torque peaks. And because I've decided to build one, I'm probably looking at $3,000+ just in parts to get me close to the power level I want. The head is junk in terms of airflow, there's very few parts available in the US, and no one even knows it exists. But hey, it's a GM DOHC engine so it's got to be better than an OHV, right??
-->Slow
OHV = good engine
wow, this thread has actually made me wanna keep my 2200, i juss need to convert to manual first lol.
no more cavy...now 240 =]
I see a cool-air intake
It's got a NOS-fogger system and a T-4 turbo
I see an A.I.C. controller
It has direct port nitrous injection
Yeah, a stand-alone fuel management system
...Not a bad way to spend $10,000
Ok, here is my opinion. The 2.4 is a good motor if you want to get cheap horsepower, which a lot of people are looking for. But if you are looking to actually spend some money, I would definately recommend the 2.2. Can anyone tell me which block they use in the Pro Drag cars? I believe the majority of the time it was the 2.2 block. Granted recently it has always been the eco, but they always use the 2.2 block because the block itself can hold some insane horsepower. If you want to start with a few smaller things on your 2.2 to see a decent gain, new plugs, plugwires, coils, battery, do the big three, change your oil on time, get your damn air intake, and header and exhaust, and get some head work done. Then see how it runs. I'll bet with that work done it will impress the hell out of you compared to what it is running now. Also most people are right, it isn't as easy to find parts for these cars, but they are out there. It is all up to you and how much money you want to spend. If you are seriously thinking about the money for a motor swap, I would suggest just putting that money back into your 2200 and see what happens...
OHV notec wrote:
Scarab (Jersey Jay 1.8T) wrote:Any of SlowOleJ's threads about his buildup will be infinitely valuable to you as well. Madjack is another good guy to talk to, as are OHV Notec and JuicedZ4. These are the guys i consider to be the authorities on all things OHV.
Thanks for the plug. Now somebody buy the head I have for sale in the classifieds lol.
If I wouldve seen it I would've gotten it lol, just spent $200 for a brand new head from GM
^^^ hahahaha yeah, and I wonder how much they would have charged you for an eco head? lol
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
my head hurts now
Proud member of Jbody of Kentucky ... Click on sig to go!
Beau wrote:Uhh. Care to defend. The 2.2 Heads flow like garbage. Fix that. WIth a full port, and going crazy on the cam, still won't even yeild you 100 horse / liter which is a fundamental benchmark for NA tuning.
So... care to show me a single 2.4 or eco that's doing 100 hp/liter NA? Besides Karo... and if i recall his was only 230 or so before the bottle.... As for "fundamental benchmark", would you say a Z06 corvette is a fast NA car? Because last I checked, it STILL isn't making 100 hp/liter.
I'm the first one to say that bolt-ons on a 2.2/2200 are almost completely worthless... at first. The OHV needs head porting, a better cam profile, and higher compression to really make use of a header, intake, ported throttlebody and all of the other little cheap bits and baubles people like to call modifications. So for somebody that wants to just bolt crap on and go a little faster, the OHV probably isn't the best choice.... But, on the same note, if you're the kind of person who wants simple bolt ons only, you probably don't want to be doing a motor swap either. Personally, I'm an OHV fan. I've got nothing against the LD9 or the Eco, but i think that just like anything else on this forum, the OHV gets a bad rep because a few people tried and failed and then everyone else simply took their word that the OHV "wasn't worth it". Adler did 13.2's still using an fmu and dealing with a factory rev limiter. Now that we have the capability (electronics wise) of revving as high as a stock eco, and are finally figuring out what mechanical parts from other cars will fit to help us reach that goal, its only a matter of time before someone starts putting a lot of people in their place. Judging from builds that I've seen so far, my bet is that Stevefire or Lowfire might be contenders in the somewhat near future. People like me, Notec, Slow, etc... are a lot farther off. Hell, I haven't even started yet. While we may not have seen much out of the OHV in a jbody yet, we've seen enough to know what it can do. Byron did 13.9's NA, Scrufdog in the 13's on N2O, Adler, 13's on boost, all of them have done pretty damn respectable times without the benefits of the tuning abilities of HPT and some other knowledge we now have thanks to guys who put the time in to research like Slow, Madjack, Notec, etc. I'm sure you'll never see more fast OHV's than fast eco's or 2.4's, but thats the way I like it.
Arrival Blue 04 LS Sport
Eco
Turbo
Megasquirt
'Nuff said
Quote:
BTW, if anyone wants to scream about how a DOHC engine is inherently better, let me point out that the SOHC engine used in the early Pontiac J cars is also available in many European and South American cars as well as Daewoos in a DOHC version (Says GM right on the block!), where it makes a whopping 128 hp and 136 ft/lbs of torque. Some screamer that one is compared to the OHV's 120 hp and 130 ft/lbs torque peaks. And because I've decided to build one, I'm probably looking at $3,000+ just in parts to get me close to the power level I want. The head is junk in terms of airflow, there's very few parts available in the US, and no one even knows it exists. But hey, it's a GM DOHC engine so it's got to be better than an OHV, right??
what was the displacement of the DOHC? i bet it was the 1.8 or the 2.0.. a bit smaller than the 2.2 for slightly more power.
mod whatever you want. one day i'm sure the market for the OHV will increase, as more people build them up.. with cavattack2000 being the only one I know of to still run to this day.
but out of all the success stories with the OHV, none of those cars are alive today.
there are a lot more resources available for us now.. so I'm sure someone will do it
I tried and failed.. haven't looked back since. I'm a lot happier with the ecotec powerplants.
