Hello, first I am new to this forum and well actually this is the first forum I have ever been to. I am currently rebuilding my 1995 cavalier 2.2 and I am having my most trouble with the TB and intake manifold. The only three options I have seen our.
1) buying the upper manifold and TB from Z spec for $400
2) buying the venom intake and putting my own TB up to 66mm on. $900 for both
3)taking my tb and having it ported. ???$$
what do you guys think is best?
Thanks Jon
As you know the TB is cast integrally with the upper intake/ plenum, so the TB it's self is not replaceable. I had a local Tool & Machine shop bore my TB oversized to 55mm (stock is 52mm) and cut me a new throttle blade and I have had good results. According to the machinist, the hardest part was getting the material for the new throttle blade and cutting it correctly. He cut the new throttle blade (slightly oversized) and drilled it, while I sanded it to fit properly. Boring the TB was a fairly simple proceedure. I have know some member to get a TB from a 2.3L Quad 4 and use just the throttle blade and get the 2.2L's TB bored to match, but I'm not familiar with how well the 2.3L's throttle blade matches up to the off set of the shaft it rides on.
I wouldn't reccomened a TB any larger than 56mm with a natrually asperated 2.2L, it just won't use any more air than a lager TB would provide. The gains on a stock motor will be marginal at the top end, with a slight loss of torque in the lower rpms. This is due to the loss of air velocity in the lower rpms, while increasing the volume available in the upper rpms. The gains would be more noticeable with the standard bolt-ons (intake, header and full exhaust) and even more so, with internal work (ported head, oversized valves, cam, etc...). The biggest restirction in this motor, is in the head design, a P&P will free up a fair amount of power in these motors.
Jon Evans wrote:Hello, first I am new to this forum and well actually this is the first forum I have ever been to.
Wow, you just jumped right into the lions' den huh?
The JBO is well-known to eat you up and spit you out if you're not careful. You should be okay as long as you stick to 2.2L questions though, the internet-bullies don't care about our motors
Jon Evans wrote:1) buying the upper manifold and TB from Z spec for $400
I have one of these, it is NOT as described, they just bored the TB out before the plate and then smoothed the transition, it still has a stock throttle plate. This company was previously known as RSM, stay away from them at all costs. Do the same for Mantapart (you probably will never see your parts), and JBP (their 2.2L parts are crap).
Jon Evans wrote:2) buying the venom intake and putting my own TB up to 66mm on. $900 for both
I'm pretty sure we determined a while ago this wasn't availible for our older motors, so don't bother. If you want a full replacement manifold, contact
this guy. Check out his geocities page for a picture of it.
Jon Evans wrote:3) taking my tb and having it ported.
As Jack said, this is your best option, and shouldn't be all that expensive.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
I wouldnt even mess with the fuel without other mods. The motor is going to be completely rebuilt. IPP makes a HP kit which I am going to use. I am also going with forged crank and rods to go with kit. T25bb turbo and intercooler. My problem is the intake manifold and TB.
http://www.venom-performance.com/nf/html/catalog/manrail/manrail.htm
That is the manifold from venom. I was wondering if this would work and maybe take the bored TB from an ecotec as long as TPS was same. What do you think?
People have posted links to that manifold before. If you call they'll probably tell you they don't even make one (not to mention 98 was totally different, and they still list it with the others).
Also, a heads up, nobody makes a forged crank, and a custom job will cost in excess of $2000. Forged rods and pistons are more than enough for a itty bitty T28 lol, no need for a forged crank.
The biggest problem you'll find is adding fuel. If you search for "top-feed conversion", or "solving the 94-97 injector problem", or many others you will find out why. That guy I posted a link to makes a manifold to solve that problem, as well as allowing a massive TB.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Quote:
The JBO is well-known to eat you up and spit you out if you're not careful.
You'd think some of these people would get tired of getting NewB stuck in their teeth. <sigh>
John, you might want to balance the amount of effort and money you spend solving this TB issue with the fact that you're running forced induction. If you get a custom manifold to solve the fuel supply issue and it happens to come with a larger TB and plenum, then it's probably worth spending cash on. But spending beaucoup bucks on a manifold just for a larger inlet path seems extravagant when you can increase boost 1 psi on a smaller TB and make up the difference.
I have spent many internet hours looking for anyone who was racing the old 2.0 OHV engines. My thinking is that someone, somewhere must have some of the old Chevrolet Racing parts lying around. But even with the 'net I haven't been able to find anything. So far (afaik) the forged crank is still just a dream.
-->Slow
Quote:
Also, a heads up, nobody makes a forged crank, and a custom job will cost in excess of $2000. Forged rods and pistons are more than enough for a itty bitty T28 lol, no need for a forged crank.
For the forged crank talk to the guys at IPP. They are very helpfull and will make it no problem for much much less the 2K.
And when you contact the boys at venom they say they no 95 and 98 are different motors and yes they make it for the 95. Maybe they are idiots but either way I am looking for a solution to my problem with advice on how to do it and not how I cant do it.
Quote:
And when you contact the boys at venom they say they no 95 and 98 are different motors and yes they make it for the 95.
That's not the answer they've given in the past.
You're not the first person to travel this road. There are some fairly smart people here that have worked on different solutions to parts availability (or lack of) for the 2.2 / 2200 engine. I guess the main point which seems to be most common is that most of the people building 2.2 engines are not interested in and are maybe not able to throw cubic dollars at finding solutions.
Quote:
I am looking for a solution to my problem with advice on how to do it and not how I cant do it.
I didn't see that happening. I saw someone who has spent many hours looking into finding quality parts at reasonable prices trying to save you some time and possibly some disappointment.
-->Slow
Is there that much mroe avaliable for the 2.4L? Is there much difference in going from the 95 model to a 98 and staying 2.2? I want to stay 95-99 which is going to be best choice. Like what year and trim. Are all the z24's the same from 95-99? What is the best solution?
all 96-99 Z24's are the same 2.4L motor. 95' had the 2.3L.
What year did the obd2 start. I think it was 97 on the cavaliers but I am not sure. Hp tuners are avaliable for obd2 only, right?
HP tuners is available for 97+
As for the OBD2 question:
http://www.obdii.com/connector.html
Quote:
All cars and light trucks built and sold in the United States after January 1, 1996 were required to be OBD II equipped. In general, this means all 1996 model year cars and light trucks are compliant, even if built in late 1995.
However, the 2.2's in the 95 model year were OBD2, whereas the 2.3's were OBD1
Are you sure. I know they have obd2 connectors but I am pretty sure they are obd1, except the 2.3L automatics which were obd2. My source is listed here.
http://www.j-body.org/faq//91/
Good point... All I've seen are manuals, so didn't know that part.
The '95 LN2s were OBD I with a Batch-Fire Fuel Injection. The '96 LN2s were OBD II but a one year PCM, software and harness and the first year of Sequential-Fire Fuel Injection and is not supported by HP Tuners VCM Suite. The '97+ LN2s are OBD II with a new harness and PCM and are supported by HPT.
If you want to use HPT with a '95 or '96, you must convert to a new style PCM. The easiest being a '97 PCM. '96s can use the PCM and harness or you can re-pin the the '96's harness. For a '95 you will need the PCM, harness, instrument panel, block and cam to convert it to use HPT (probably the dash harness also). The easiest route to tune a '95 would be to find a shop that can burn a new chip.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edited Monday, October 23, 2006 4:36 AM
Brian Whalen wrote:all 96-99 Z24's are the same 2.4L motor. 95' had the 2.3L.
I would say 95 had 2.3l, obd 1
2.4l 96-98 had low impedance injectors, different knock sensor size than later years, egr, larger starter, had lip on intake manifold, obd2 "96 had crazy weird obd 1-2 setup"
2.4l 99 high impedance injectors, Flat top pistons, no egr, large or small starter, had no lip on inside of intake manifold, obd2
2.4l 00-02 high impedance injectors, domed, and some flat top pistons, no egr, small starter, seen one with lip, one without, obd2
All 96-02 2.4l twin cam motors can be made to work in any year with little modifications.
I believe most of that info is correct, but I'm going of memory. And I'm sure I missed some.
PRND321 Till I DIE
Old Motor: 160whp & 152ft/lbs, 1/4 Mile 15.4 @88.2
M45 + LD9 + 4T40-E, GO GO GO
So I have an option to pick up a 96 at a very good price right now. Less then $500. It is that hard to either repin or change the harness and pcm to a 97 so I can use the hptuners? Also if I change will I still pass emissions? It seems harder to convert my 1995 then it would be to convert a 1996.
