About 2 months ago I finally got my new suspension all done and started the car up only to hear that sound I hate. I had recalled hearing something at the end of last year, but discounted it as rocker noise etc.
Anyway, I have been working on some other projects for hte car and FINALLY got the motor out sunday. Last night I got it just about stripped down, pulled the head and found this.
and in turn my REV valves arent happy either, at least their hardened tips (ya, those shouldnt be loose)
Last time we thought it was inadequate spring pressure causing the intake valves to open when they shouldnt have, in turn causing the lifters to become free and slam into the cam. To remedy this we went to ISKY LS1 dual valve springs, even stiffer than the original builds dual springs. We also converted the hyd lifters to mech with the insert that Im sure many of you have seen.
Now with the new stiffer springs the lifter wheel/axle didnt last 1/2 as long.
My builder thinks the pressure is just to much for the crappy wheel and axle. And they just wear out after pretty much no time.
We are looking at a few options.
1. the Crane v6 lifters, which I now see are no longer made?, and/or wont fit due to the tie bar.
2. trying to get ISKY (apparently my builder is good friends with the owner) to supply us with a set of their race axles/wheels to use with the stock lifter bodies. (he believes the wheel/axle is made by Timken and used by most manufacturers in their top of the line race lifters).
3. Looked at some Jensel lifters which use a keyed insert you press into the block. However the lifters are $160US EACH!. F that noise,.... 1200 bux for lifters.
Anyway, I hope to get this resolved once and for all this winter.
Please if I have missed any great progress on this since I was here last (dont get here much at all anymore) link me
I checked around some but didnt find anything too finalized.
More to come. I WILL find a solution to this.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
I don't know what pressure you're running, but stock LS1 lifters aren't all that different from stock LN2 lifters. I haven't read about LS1 guys losing lifters left and right. Same is true for the LT1 lifter (same part number) and the many Vette and Impala SS guys using stockers. Then again, I also didn't think adding more spring pressure was the cure.
Any chance the cam grind in the problem? Acceleration ramp and lobe nose shape have to be right to keep a lifter alive. Any chance you've got a problem with the lifters turning slightly in the guides? Maybe it's a good idea to machine some steel guides? I wouldn't look for the "new" stuff to be a problem, that's for sure. I'd look at the re-used stuff to be contributing to the issue.
jmo.
-->Slow
I need to look up the valve spring pressures still.
I would think if the lifters were twisting there would be some sort of wear or damage to the guides. I didnt notice any in my quick look last night but I will definitely be checking them out closer.
As far as the cam goes anything is possible. I never compared the regrind specs to stock. Pretty much I let the shop and Comp take care of that. I was running a very tight lash this time since I was running the solid lifters with the hyd cam profiles. My next cam, from wherever it may come, is going to have mechincal profiles for sure.
Here is the cam card for those interested. Not sure that helps any.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
Are you still using the self-aligning rocker arms? If so how much clearance between the rocker arm body (on each side of the roller tip) and / or the guides on the tip and the valve spring retainers and locks do you have? According to Crane you should haveat leastt .025" clearance. (Note: this may be why the valve stem tip came off, it usually has pressure on it at all times.) Self-aligning rocker arms are not reccomended for mechanical roller applications, due to the lash requirements. I also noticed you are still using the guide plates, you don't want to use them with self-aligning rocker arms.
With the mmechanicalroller conversion you now need to have some lash set in the valve train, how much lash do you have? It should be in the neighborhood of .014"-.020", check with the cam manufacturer to be sure.
Is the cam grind a mechanical roller profile or a hydraulic roller profile? You can get by with a hydraulic lifter on a mechanical profile (with a loss of power) but you can't use a mechanical on a roller profile. The hydraulic profile is actually a faster initial ramp rate than a mechanical profile, this is due to the fact that a hydraulic will absorb some of the initial llaunchingof the lifter. If a mechanical lifter is used on a hydraulic profile damage will occur. IMO, only use the type of lifter for the grind you have.
Remember, the valve train of these motors aren't as heavy as a SBC (even though most of the parts are from a SBC), so the springs don't need to be quite as heavy of a rate. A max pressure of about 350-375 lbs at max lift should suffice. (this is hard to eestimate I don't have a Spintron out in the garage to test valve train components!
)
Did you check you valve train geometry? Is the pushrod the correct length? Is the tip of the rocker arm riding on the tip of the valve stem correctly?
Did you measure your Piston-to-Valve clearance? You need at least .080" on the intake and .100" on the exhaust. These amounts are needed to prevent interference a higher rpms.
These are just a few thing I could think of off hand that need to be checked before starting an engine with a custom valvetrain or using non-standard parts. If you change on part of the geometry, you need to check the rest it for problems.
As for the lifters, Isky uses a removable tie bar between the lifter bodies. Instead of using the rollers off another lifter, try using the Isky lifters with a custom made tie bar. Isky just uses a piece of die stamped steel for the link bars, you should be able to get the link bars made for the lifter spacing fairly cheaply.
Lets see.
1. yes, im still running the self aligning rockers. Im not sure on the clearances.
2. I was running 0.006" of lash hot since I was running the mechanical lifters on the hydro cam
3. Cam grind is still hyd profile
4. Pushrod lenght is supposedly correct as setup by the shop
5. Valve to piston clearance no clue. However my pistons are super dished 8:1 c/r
Ill have to dig thru the Isky stuff again and/or talk with my builder about their lifters. Making a few tie bars would be super easy. I just need to find a lifter thats the right diameter and close in length. You got that p/n handy?
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
The other thing is I didnt think there was room for a link bar down in the block.
I swear we looked at this originally. Im running a 94 block, not sure that matters or not.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
I think your problem lies here:
Quote:
...I was running the mechanical lifters on the hydro cam
3. Cam grind is still hyd profile
Like I stated above the initial ramprate on a hydraulic is a bit steeper than a machanical. If you pull the cam, you should see where the lifter is slamming down on the cam lobe.
For your application, use the stock lifters (new of course) and try the LT1 lifter's plunger spring conversion and stay hydraulic. As for using a hydraulic lifter, don't go over 350 lbs at max lift for spring pressure. A seat pressure in the range of 105-125 should be good with your valve train.
Definitely check the rocker arm to retainer clearance. I'm using the Crane rockers and only had like .006" clearance, so I had to put the vlave spring change on hold. I'll be using some custom cut valves with the keeper grove cut .030 lower, the intake will be 1.84" and the exhaust will be 1.497"(+1mm). I'm looking at $250+ for a set of valves, plus the cost of the larger intake valve seats and their installation.
Quote:
I don't have a Spintron out in the garage to test valve train components
What!!! We're just going to have to order one up then.
I also wonder about the mech / hydro mismatch. The guys doing this on the short track "cheaters" (rules say "hydraulic cam profile") are not running killer spring pressures.
Dan, I'm not sure you'd see anything in the lifter bores if the lifters turned. The plastic guides should definitely show a problem.
-->Slow
Ya, the plastic guides are completely intact.
I snapped a few more pics of the cam lobe damage etc. Seems like the center of the cam lobe was damaged, and the outside of the lifter rollers damaged.
What I still just dont get is why the exhaust valves are fine. so wierd
So now I gotta figure out what to do about a new cam. Someone needs to make some billet blanks for us.
I did talk to Comp quick and they thought they would probably be able to regrind a mechanical profile on the cam. However, I worry that they would/could machine thru the heat-treat on the stock crank. I was thinking I could have my now junk cam cut in half right on one of hte lobes and have it harness tested to see just how much could be removed before it gets "soft". This is probably pretty consistant cam to cam.
I guess Im just thinking out loud here.
About a year ago I talked to crower who was willing to make a full custom billet cam for me (they did Curtis' cam), but at a price of about $600 and 3-4 months lead time.
I know my shop has made billet blanks for other customers (GM -Delphi engineering stuff) but Im not sure what that cost would be. I'll ask him about it, or perhaps who else could cut one.
I want to make this right. Hell, if it takes another year so be it. At this point I just want it done right so Im not back here in a year with another handful of broken parts.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
I dont think my spring pressures are way out of wack. Im running about 170# closed. Given that Id like to run 25+psi with a 1.8" intake valve thats 64+ pounds of pressure trying to push the spring open. Which nets me 110 pounds "ish". Also based on my lift Im at around 330# at max lift.
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
By the looks of thing, you lifters are rotating in their bores. This is quite possible depending on how much the lobes were ground down to meet the lift and timing of the profile you are using (Though it appears to have the stock LSA and ICL). What would be happening is the lifter is going so far down into the lifter bore, that it is coming out of the guides.
As for the billet cam cores, IPP is having their new line of cams ground by Web Cams on billet cores that IPP is having made. I haven't asked them if they they are willing to sell just the cores, but they are willing to do a custom grind if you want them to.
Isky has a number of different designs for their mechanical roller lifters. See their
on line catalog for details. (Scroll down the left column to Valve Train Weapons, to Lifters, to Roller and click on the yellow numbers.) Body style B with a diameter of .842" and center seat location. These can be found in the SBC and BBC sections. Have you own guide bars made to fit you motor. See the guide bar diagram at the bottom of pg23. Remember to make it long enough to stay in place while one lifter is at max lift and the other is on the heel of it's lobe.
If you are going to stay with a mechanical roller cam, go ahead and get the standard narrow bodied roller rockers (non-self-aligning) and keep the guide plates (if you stay with the 1.6 rockers they will need to be ground slightly, if you haven't already done so). This will ensure proper contact with the valve tips, without any interference issues with the spring locks and retainers. You will also need to get some pushrods (.080" thick walled chrome-molly, 3/8" dia.). They will need to be swedged at the ends down to 5/16"(which most are), so that they fit the lifters and rocker arms. Manley, Trick Flow and others have pre-made ones of various lengths, but custom made may be needed. The stock ones are 7.403", but depending upon the cam's base circle and, surfacing of the head and block, how deep the valves are seated and the length of the valve stems will all weigh into determining the correct pushrod length. A pushrod length checker,
such as this one, is inexpensive and helpful in determining the proper length. (Note: I'm using Trick Flow 7.400", 5/16" pushrod w/o guide plates and w/ the self-aligning rockers, but I'm staying with a hydraulic roller cam. I need the custom valves with a lower keeper grove, as previously stated.)
Before you run the engine, make sure you disassemble it and clean everything thoroughly, and replace any damaged bearings. I sure some metal particles came off in the motor and you don't want them destroying anything else.
Ya, I just talked to Phil at IPP. He said that they have round lobe billet cores and would be willing to do a custom grind for another 20 bux. Which I find more than hard to believe. Its almost too cheap, 200 bux for a custom billet cam.
It costs at least 150 to get comp or someone to do the final grind. The steel alone has to cost 30-40 bux. Heat treating a cam is on the order of 20-70 bux depending on how many they are treating at once. Then you gotta make some money.
Perhaps Im just skeptical, but something seems "missing".
Im gonna call up WebCams and see what they have to say.
Maybee there is light at the end of the tunnel.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
So I talked to Web Cam. They have partially finished billet blanks made for them and then do the final grind for Phil at IPP.
I told them what I wanted to do and sent them a sheet to see if they could do so on the blanks that they get. Im hoping they can, and if not, Im gonna see if they can get me a full round lobe blank to grind the profile Id like in.
This is what I asked for:
Duration @0.050 Intake 226
Duration @0.050 Exhaust 220
Separation 114-115
Lift Intake and Exhaust 310
Ill let you know what happens.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
juicedz4 wrote:This is what I asked for:
Duration @0.050 Intake 226
Duration @0.050 Exhaust 220
Separation 114-115
Lift Intake and Exhaust 310
You want to run 25+psi with that?!? you're crazy lol
IMO, the factory LSA would be better than widening it, seeing as you're going for ungodly amounts of power, requiring a larger turbo, and higher rpm...you won't have any low-end power anyway, so the cam won't help it...
I agree with Jack on the lifter rotating though, seeing how the wheels are worn on the outside and the cam on the inside.
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Well, I guess Ill find out. Curtis run similar LSA on his crower cam but with alot more duration and lift.
Im only planning to switch up to a 50 trim compressor and a .63a/r stage 2 turbine. That should easlily be able to support 25-30 psi and should still spool pretty quick. Im guessing 15psi by 3600rpms... 'ish'
Which will give me about 250 wheel ftlbs at 15psi, before 4k.
I guess only time will tell for sure.
I called ISKY this afternoon. They said to send them a dwg of the lifter I had and they would take a look at whats close. The shortest lifter they have tho is 2.8", the stockers are 2.25".
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
You won't be using the plastic guide, if you go with the Isky roller, so that will give you extra room. Besides, you'll need a taller lifter for the linkbar clearance. You will need to measure for new pushrods though.
Quote:
Maybee there is light at the end of the tunnel.
And it's getting brighter!
The one thing im worried about on the Isky lifter, or any others, is that I dont have room for a tiebar between the outside of the lifter and the block.
I have the stock lifter about drawn up to send over to Isky. Maybee Ill know something today.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
Isky doesnt have anything that will work.
The lifter needs to be skirted and they dont have ANY skirted lifters according to Richard.
I also talked to Crane. I thought maybee they would have some bodies lying around, even tho the 3.1 lifters are discontinued, no dice. The guy I talked to said they would be more than happy to make me some if they had the bodies which they dont. crappy.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
I found two sets of the V6 lifters yesterday.
and perhaps another source for them as well.
I should hopefully have a set on order from somewhere today, maybee with a couple extras.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
Looking in the Chevrolet Power Catalog, 6th Edition, I found that they show a set of mechanical roller lifters. The design they used was a non-skirted design. I think it is still possible to use a lifter w/o a skirt, as long as the oil slot doesn't drop below the bottom of the lifter well.
True. Well if the V6 ones dont work out I will start looking into that more. For now, since I think we know they DO fit, Ill get ahold of the V6 set.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
Where'd you manage to dig those up? Don't forget to clearance them for the pushrods if needed
fortune cookie say:
better a delay than a disaster.
Schneider Racing Cams in CA. They had a full set of both the Crane and Crower lifters. I picked up the Crower set since they all have the skirts for $325. This way Ill have two extra sets, which never hurts.
I also talked to DJ at Crower who said they did not have any of the lifters in stock but would be willing to make them for $63/pair with linkbars.
Web Cams is supposed to be getting the billet blanks in today or monday for IPP. I should hopefully know by mid next week what sort of grind they can do for me with mech lifter profiles. With any luck have it on order by end of next week. Im guessing it will be a good month before I see it since they will need to do the standard grinds for Phil at IPP first before mine.
Anyway, Im pretty much just down to figureing out what other bearings etc are damaged, and gettitng at least one new valve on order.
yay.
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
I talked to Web late yesterday.
Apparently they found a grind in their list for me.
They want to do
318 lift for I and E (gives me 508 total)
250 duration @50 for I and E
114 separation
Discussing it with my builder now. Lifters should be here today or tomorrow.
Dan
YEP, my 60' times suck
247HP/267ftlbs at 13psi with built motor
Project updates and stuff:
www.clubhousecustoms.com
email: dan@clubhousecustoms.com
