I have read in multiple posts by different people that the 086 head off an early 90's Quad has much better flow characteristics then the TC head. My questions; would the gains warrent the extra time and $$$ to do this on a turbo set up? Or should i just invest the money in things like a better exhaust manifold and tunning?
And yes i know there is a lot more then just bolting up the 086 head.
Thanks
Shawn M.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
the 086 quad head was the best flowing 4cylinder head gm made to date...so dont you think it would be worth it?
and its not the"modification" to make it work that is hard..i just worry about your compression...
its a GREAT head for a NA set up but for FI youll need differnt pistons(which im sure you already know)
Thanks scott, you are correct in assuming that. I have heard that this head with the stock rods and pistons makes like 15:1 comp. Or was it 11.4:1 for some reason i remember both numbers. I am seriously considering this over a turbo, cause its a DD and i like the idea of going N/A. Would the 086 need to get a P&P? And the HO mani fits right up to it, right?
Now to the what if's.
I have:
* Custom 2.25" cat-back
* Tenzo R muffler with 4" burnt titanium tip
* fidenza short throw
* Pacesetter ceramic coated 4-1 headers
* Magnaflow high flow cat
* 2.3 HO mani swap with a phelonic adapter
* SPEC Stage 2 Clutch
* SPEC Light Weight flywheel
Waiting install:
* 56mm HO T/B
* Stock size, but half the weight crank and alt pulleys
* engine, trans mounts and control arm bushings
Would get:
* HPT Pro (with a good tune by an awesome shop)
* 086 head
* JBP Stage 2 or 3 cams
* Bronze guides
* Stainless Valves
* JBP valve springs
* Rods and Pistons
* Clevet main and rod bearings
* APR bolts
* What ever fuel mods needed; pump, FPR, Injectors
* Maybe an oil cooler to keep things chilled
Any ideas on #'s and if its going to be street-able? I would be hopping for somewhere north of 215 hp or i would probably just do boost. I don't want cray HP, just something i can beat around and have fun with.
I have posted questions regarding building a N/A LD9 before but as i learn more i have more questions. Please any comments are welcome, haters too.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
Quote:
Would the 086 need to get a P&P? And the HO mani fits right up to it, right?
ok..since the 086 head is a HO head and the HO manifold originally came on it....im gonna say yes hehe
the rest of your mod list looks pretty solid
a couple things i did notice though..you have 2.25" exhaust...that is a jbody exhaust size and quad4 tuners used 2.5" ..keep that in mind when using quad parts
the other thing is your pacesetter header will not bolt up to the 086 head..and yes compression is gonna be around 12:1 (give or take) especially if you deck the head and block..which means nothing but premium gas for you(unless you change the pistons
is 215 hp realistic? i think so..with the right mods, but i would consider a nice overbore to help you get there..and a PnP..does the 086 need it?no..will it help it..OFCOURSE
keep in mind speedracerZ just dynoed 171 hp and he was using 9.5:1 pistons and an LD9 head but here is his mod list so youll need MORE than what he has to get higher numbers ofcourse
# Miller Performance modified 2.3 LO (200*/.375" lift) Intake Cam
# 2.3 HO (212*/.410" lift) Exhaust Cam
# Stock 2.4 Intake cam tower and 33mm lifters
# 2.3 Exhaust Cam Tower w/ 35mm Lifters
# 2.3 HO Intake/Exhaust Valve Springs
# Port and Polished LD9 Head w/ Stainless Valves (Shaved .010")
# Cometic .074" MLS Head Gasket
# ARP Head Studs
# Wiseco 9.5:1 (.040" overbore) Pistons
# Eagle Rods
# Clevite 77 Main/Rod bearings
# ARP Main Studs
# LD9 Block Modified for 2.3 Oil Pump
# 2.3 Oil Pump Conversion
# Miller Performance Oil Pan
# Ported 2.3 HO Intake Manifold
# FDP Billet Aluminum 65mm T/B
# PaceSetter Ceramic Coated 4-1 Header
# Custom 2.5" Down pipe
# 2.5" Cat Eliminater Pipe
# Stock Z24/LS Sport cat back
# UR Underdrive Pulley
# Aeromotive LT1 AFPR
# Fuel Gauge on Fuel Rail
# AC-Delco/Vortec Fuel pump (25163473)
# RK Sport upper and lower mounts
#
# Transmission
# Spec 8lb Aluminum Flywheel
# Spec Stage 3 Clutch
# Team GREEN LSD
# Prothane Urithane Trans Mounts
# HPTuners Software
Shawn McKenzie wrote:Thanks scott, you are correct in assuming that. I have heard that this head with the stock rods and pistons makes like 15:1 comp. Or was it 11.4:1 for some reason i remember both numbers. I am seriously considering this over a turbo, cause its a DD and i like the idea of going N/A. Would the 086 need to get a P&P? And the HO mani fits right up to it, right?
It raises the compression to 11.4. Both H.O. manifolds (intake/ exhaust) bolt right up to the head without modification. The heater hoses around the exhaust manifold however may need to be rerouted (My hoses were resting right up against it which = BAD). Don't try modifying the pacesetter instead, because the 2.4 head has smaller exhaust ports. This means the pacesetter will obstruct much of the exhaust flow.
If you have your heart set on N/A and wan't it to be a daily driver, you could get a set of forged stock sized pistons or 10.5:1 CR pistons to be safe. You could also ditch the OBD-II and swap a 95' cavalier z24 ECU and get the mantapart chip, so that you can run both of the H.O cams as well... I don't know if the w41 or w41 "hot grind" cams will work with the chip though (the w41 "hot grind" would be ideal for top end horsepower).
I knew it was a stupid question, thought i would ask it anyway. Who makes a good exhaust manifold for that head?
See i want to run something like 11:1 or 10.5:1 on forged internals tunned on 92, what we have here in Oregon. With the head being really different from the stock one i think that means the pistons need to be something like 9:1 on a stock head.
I am not switching ECU's and if i run HO cams dont I run into clearence issues with the pistons hitting the valves on the intake side? And probably more issues I am not aware of.
Tunning will be done with HPT Pro and maybe an MSD ignition system or something, haven't fully decided, going to wait to get the tunning shop's imput.
I kindof thought the overbore was a givin, if i am doing all this work might as well overbore it while i am in there. I haven't been sold on the oil pump conversion, maybe wait to see what the mechinning shop says about that. I was going to do the JBP oil pump upgrade, not really sure if its an upgrade, and the neutralizing ballancing shafts they do. I was hopping that combined with the oil cooler could keep things from going crazy.
speedracerZ built his for boost, I hope that with the 086 head, and a CR of atleast 10.5:1 and more agressive cams i should/hope make closer to 200 hp. The rest of it would be in the tunning.
Any comments on the fuel system? I know its rubish with just a little boost, but thats a different animal then N/A. Hopefully speedracerZ comes in and comments.
Thanks for all the imput guys, keep it comming.
Shawn M.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
Wow I wish I knew half about compression that you guys do lol. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread....
My car has two speeds, fast and faster.
The 086 head on a 96-99 block will give you 11.4:1 compression with stock bore/pistons. If you have a 00-02 block it get up to 11.7:1 compression.
It's good enough for DD. I'm running 12:1 in my W41 with 94 octane. I'm also running a set of W41 hot grind 2. The biggest "street" cams you can get for the quad. The other ones are too big for stock tune. Mine are .430" and 224°.
The best exhaust manifold for the quad is the 91-92 Ho manifold.
The 086 can be port and polish. The part you want to port more is the exhaust. The intake is already big enough but can take a bit more. Of course it will help.
The intake manifold can be Extrude Honed. You can search for it and have it done. It's a P&P job basicly but for the manifold. The inside will be smooth compared to the rough inside of the stock manifold. The ports will be bigger too. The TB port can be opened by them too if you want a really big TB.
I suggest to keep the 2.4 Ecm for timming reason. It will be easier for you to use a 2.4 Ecm. You'll run into less problem since the timming is not advance as much as a W41 ecm. You can't run a set of Ho or bigger cams without changing the pistons. There's not enough clearance. If you change the pistons and want to run Ho or bigger, you can have the CPS lobe made on the cam and the Hex done at the end of the cam unless you want to go with the old style ps pump.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
I agree with everything...and a note on fuel
if your running NA all you really need are a set of HO injectors..maybe an adj. FPR ..but your fuel pump should be able to handle it
Mfk do you know how much your W41 motor makes?
The new pistons would have to have dishes in it for the valves right? Which means custom right? Are custom pistons really expensive or worth it? Are the HO cams that much better then say the JBP stage 2 or 3 cams?
I do want to use as much as i can off of the older cars to bring down the price, but I dont know if having custom pistons made will offset the lower cost of scrounging HO cams.
Yes I am keeping my ECM, just tunning it with HPT and a wideband.
Jspec I learned all this from just searching and reading.
Last question. Mfk I was wondering/worried that i could run 11.7:1 (I have a 2001 Z) on pump gas. In my last thread about building N/A they were all certain you could not run any higher then 11:1 on pump gas and that is risky.
Thanks again for the info.
P.S. Mfk were do you live where you get 94 octane pump gas, you lucky *@(#*
Shawn M.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
JSPEC wrote:Wow I wish I knew half about compression that you guys do lol. I'm going to keep my eye on this thread....
Compression is a basic ratio of the volume in the cylinder, from the piston's lowest position to its highest. The 086 head has a smaller volume in the combustion chamber than an LD9 head which is why the compression raises.
Shawn McKenzie wrote:Last question. Mfk I was wondering/worried that i could run 11.7:1 (I have a 2001 Z) on pump gas. In my last thread about building N/A they were all certain you could not run any higher then 11:1 on pump gas and that is risky.
I don't know who told you that. Celicas run about 11.5:1 CR stock. They don't need race fuel. 12:1 is pretty high, but definately doable on pump gas.
On a side note, if you wanted 10.5:1, you could get a set of 9:1 pistons. It doesn't matter what year your car is if you change pistons, because the reason the 00-02 have a higher compression with the 086 head is because they have a higher compression piston stock. The bore and stroke are the same for any LD9, so the final CR will be the same with a piston change.
I knew that, 00-02 LD9's have 9.7:1 stock and older had 9.5:1.
If i can run it on pump gas, I will probably do 11:1 or 11.5:1. Which means 9.5:1 pistons.
Would i even need forged pistons? I know its better, cause they are stronger and all, but could i safely run the stock bottum end with 11.7:1 CR? This would happen sooner if I just rebuilt the head now and later did the bottom end. Or is it worth it to just save the extra grand and redue the whole thing at once?
JSPEC - usually the lower the compresssion the "easier" it is to turbo the car. The lower CR means the turbo doesn't have to work as hard to push the air in, you can turbo a higher CR engine, you wont see big PSI but you could make almost the sme power over a broader power band.
As much as I "know" I haven't really done any of this, just read a lot about it. So start reading.
Shawn M.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
Sorry for the double post, but I just saw that Brian has done the 086 head swap. How do you like it? Do you have any numbers for us? Did you do the head sperate of the bottum end? Any comments? I would PM this but I think everyone who is reading this would be interested.
Thanks
Shawn M.
Yes I am a JBO whore, what else am i suppoesed to do, sleep in class?
PSN ID: Phatchance249
Ok I'm understanding why a lower CR is important to turbo cars, but I'm still totaly confused on the #'s you guys are throwing out. Math was my worst subject in school lol, but I have no clue what you are talking about when you say 9.5:1 or 10:1 ect ect.... What do these numbers mean? I know it is the CR that is it though, how do you know what certain pistons to get with just the CR? I'm lost I'm just going to listen to you guys for a while.
My car has two speeds, fast and faster.
Shawn - The problem with high CR and boost is not the turbo not being able to push it in. You can run 20psi with 15:1 compression. The problem with high compression and boost is that you will detonate more if not tune well. Most people here will tell you to go with lower CR because they are too cheap to do it the right way and tune the Ecm. You also need an higher octane gas.
I live in Quebec Canada and I can get 94 octane.
You can run the stock pistons and run the secret cams or the 2.4 stock cams. It just that you can have hot spot and weak spot on the stock pistons. As soon as you will detonate say goodbye to the piston. That's why you go with forged pistons. Also, you can find some custom cast pistons but it's really hard. Almost every company go with forged since you probably plan on racing it.
I don't know how much my W41 makes right now cause I have a problem with my injectors. I'll get new bigger ones. Right now they don't work right. They spent a year in the barn and I guess the gas gummed up and they skip.
I ordered my pistons from Car Customs. I won't say the price cause I talked with Karo for them but they are in the same price range as the other.
JBP cams are not worth the price. You can buy new pistons and rings, have the block bored and get the Ho cams for cheaper than what JBP sell their cams for.
Yes you can run 11.7:1 on pump gas. The 2.4 have less timming than a W41 and I have higher compression.
So if you want to do it soon, you can run the stock pistons with stock cams but run high octane ALL THE TIME. If you go cheap you'll blow it. If you already have HPT you can retard the timming 1-2 degrees to be on the safe side.
Gilles
2.3 Ho
Ok let me see if i understand all of this.
Using the 086 head I can run the secret cams with out dishing out the pistons.
But if I go with HO cams, I will need to dish them out, and the power steering drive and CPS need to be added. Also according the quad4forums write up you can't run the HO cams without a standalone,
Linky
I am just a little confused with this area, thats why i was going to just use the JBP cams, seemed easier.
I was going to do a full valve train build up, Lifters, springs, valves, retainers, locks, bronze guides, bearings, and head bolts.
What parts of the valve train can I scrounge off the HO head and what else should I buy and for which engine?
I don't want to skip corners with this, but i don't know much about the HO engines.
I know how most people don't like to just want to tell others what to do, so i would appreciate a web site or two that has these parts for the HO and or people to talk to who make parts for these engines. Not that you guys aren't great, keep it coming if your willing, i am sounding more and more like a newbi, at least to me.
Brian why didn't you run higher CR? Is it cause you might run boost later?
For right now I will probably end up doing this, and add more as money dictates. I will probably get the parts over the year and install them next spring or summer. Here is the basics, and correct me if i am wrong, but this is the basic stuff and anything else isn't necessary, but would help.
086 head
secret cams
9.5:1 pistons and new rods
HO exhaust, maybe custom
Injectors and AFPR
Shawn M.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
here is a nice fuel set up if you want something functional AND pretty
..this is on mine right now
by the way...with this nice build you put any thought into the tranny? your not gonna stick with the isuzu are you?
1 big ques i have. as i just cooked my top end. ( dont ask ) so i may have to do the swap since i have a head layin around. what do u do with the egr. i thought the 086 head did not have the port for it. ive read tons of posts about the swap and havent seen this topic covered yet.
Don't steal, the government doesn't like competition
I have an 01 so i have the Getrag and no EGR.
I am not made of money, I work part time, in college and still am paying for the car. So I probably wouldn't do anything but manditory maintinance while the engine is out.
Scott where did you find that rail? I haven't found any reason for a new fuel rail for our car b/c the rail can supply enough fuel for 600 hp, according to someone else on here who supposidly quoted GM Performance. Yea it looks pretty. Does it accomidate more types of injectors or more AFPR? I didn't think it was worth the $170 since the stock one is supposidly so good.
PSN ID: Phatchance249
Scott - What size are those injectors? 36lbs? I need a set for the W41. Low impedence right?
Do you have a part number?
Gilles
2.3 Ho
your right about the stock fuel rail..it CAN handle it....but with my nice adj.FPR and 35lb brown top injectors i had to get the rail..to keep every thing looking nice if nothing else
but i didnt pay 175 for it either! just got a good price and went for it..i do recommend the HO injectors and the AFPR though ..and good deal on the getrag tranny..itll be able to handle the power for ya
Shawn McKenzie wrote:Sorry for the double post, but I just saw that Brian has done the 086 head swap. How do you like it? Do you have any numbers for us? Did you do the head sperate of the bottum end? Any comments? I would PM this but I think everyone who is reading this would be interested.
Car hasn't even moved yet. We fired it up and had a water leak (crappy plastic 'quick-connect' fitting under the exhaust manifold had cracked). We fixed that, started the car up again, and found an oil leak this time. Apparently a plug behind the timing chain housing wasn't tightened enough, which means the whole housing has to come off. I have had an unfortunate string of bad luck with rebuilding the motor (I can name at least 5 other problems before those). It seems after one problem is solved, another arises. Oh well...just one of the perks of custom modifications.
Shawn McKenzie wrote:Brian why didn't you run higher CR? Is it cause you might run boost later?
That is exactly the reason. I really am not a boost junkie like most of the turbo guys on this site. I only want to make around 300 whp to keep up with the current horsepower wars. I suspect that I could do it easily on 10 psi with a good tune.
I don't need to be the least slow J-body...just less slow.
Hey Scott,
I think you lost a cam tower bolt.
Quote:
Hey Scott,
I think you lost a cam tower bolt
LMAO
well...THAT engine is just a parts engine right now..i bent a rod in it when i hydrolocked it ..i just used it for my fuel rail pics when quad4forums wanted to see what it looked like installed...as for the missing bolt just go to the general forums thread on "TRS IS CRAP" and youll see that the engine i ordered from TRS was SUPPOSE to come ready to run...but ONE of the problems i had with it was it was MISSING a cam tower bolt..so guess where i robbed one from
and gilles yes those are the injectors you are thinking of..35lb or 36lb ..i hear both but i always go with the lower numbers just to be on the safe side of things so i dont get let down
got my set off ebay for 30 bucks but ill look for a part number for you..if you look around ebay they came off the old 2.3 turbo mustangs
